PRESENTER (CHRIS LAIDLAW): THIS WEEK RADIO NEW ZEALAND'S MAORI ISSUES CORRESPONDENT, GIDEON PORTER, LOOKS AT THE TREATY OF WAITANGI SETTLEMENTS PROCESS AND ASKS WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO TAKE A MORE PROACTIVE APPROACH TO HELP RAISE PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHY MAORI CLAIMS ARE TAKING SO LONG TO RESOLVE. PRESENTER (GIDEON PORTER) : LAST OCTOBER THE SMALL BAY OF PLENTY TRIBE, TUWHARETOA KI KAWERAU, WENT TO PARLIAMENT IN WELLINGTON. THEY WERE THERE TO ACCEPT A $10 MILLION TREATY SETTLEMENT DEAL. THE SETTLEMENT WAS FOR THE CONFISCATION OF 38,000 HECTARES OF TRIBAL LANDS NEARLY 140 YEARS AGO. THE LAND WAS HANDED OVER TO PAKEHA SETTLERS. SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS OF THE TRIBE HAVE PLEADED FOR JUSTICE EVER SINCE. IT WAS THEREFORE, NO SURPRISE THAT THE CEREMONY WAS A DEEPLY EMOTIONAL EVENT FOR THE IWI. (MAORI CEREMONY) PRESENTER: BUT TUWHARETOA KI KAWERAU'S SITUATION IS NOT UNIQUE. DOZENS OF TRIBES CAN RELATE SIMILAR STORIES. AND WITH CLAIMS OF INJUSTICE STRETCHING BACK MORE THAN A CENTURY, MANY MAORI FIND IT IRONIC THAT SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL 27 YEARS AGO, THERE IS NOW IMPATIENCE AND FRUSTRATION OVER THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS. THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER, MARGARET WILSON, CONCEDES SHE IS STILL FIGHTING A PERCEPTION AMONG SOME NEW ZEALANDERS THAT SETTLEMENTS ARE A KIND OF TAXPAYER HANDOUT. MARGARET WILSON (TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER) : I THINK TO SOME, THAT'S TRUE AND THAT'S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE TRY TO GET THROUGH THE MESSAGE AND THE BARRAGE OF CRITICISM OUT THERE, THAT THE COMPENSATION, AND IT IS COMPENSATION, IS FOR PAST WRONG AND THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT THIS PROCESS IS ABOUT. IT'S ABOUT THE CONFISCATION OR THE LOSS OF LAND THROUGH FRAUDULENT MEANS, THAT THAT HAS RESULTED IN ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL DEPRIVATION. NOW, IN MANY WAYS THAT CAN NEVER BE FULLY REDRESSED AND WE'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT, BUT WE CAN DO SOMETHING THROUGH THIS TO BUILD FOR THE FUTURE. PRESENTER: TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE, IN 1840 AT THE TIME OF THE SIGNING OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI, MAORI OWNED VIRTUALLY ALL LANDS IN NEW ZEALAND, SOME 66 MILLION ACRES OR 29.3 MILLION HECTARES. THEY BELIEVED THE TREATY PROMISE, THAT THEIR LAND, FORESTS AND OTHER ESTATES WOULD BE PROTECTED BUT BY 1860, JUST TEN YEARS LATER, 43 MILLION ACRES HAD BEEN ALIENATED. BY 1939, MAORI COULD BARELY CLAIM TO OWN 3 OF THE 66 MILLION ACRES THEY ONCE HELD. SIR DOUGLAS GRAHAM WAS THE FIRST TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER FROM 1991 TO 1999. HE SAYS THOSE EIGHT YEARS WERE A MASSIVE LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR HIM. SIR DOUGLAS OVERSAW THE TWO BIGGEST LAND CLAIM SETTLEMENTS TO DATE, NGAI TAHU IN THE SOUTH ISLAND AND WAIKATO TAINUI. BOTH WERE SETTLED FOR $170MILLION BUT SIR DOUGLAS HAS EMPHASISED ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS THAT THE SETTLEMENT VALUE WAS FAR LESS THAN THE WORTH OF THE LAND LOST BY BOTH TRIBES. SIR DOUGLAS GRAHAM (FORMER TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER) : I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD KNOW THAT IF YOU CONFISCATE A MILLION ACRES OF WAIKATO DAIRY LAND AND YOU PAY $170MILLION FOR IT IN TODAY'S TERMS, THAT'S CHEAP. OR YOU KNOW, VAST TRACKS OF THE SOUTH ISLAND WHERE THE CONSIDERATION WAS JUST INSULTING - 35 MILLION ACRES FOR 15,000 POUNDS. NOW, EVEN IN THOSE DAYS IT WAS A GOOD DEAL FROM THE CROWN'S POINT OF VIEW. PRESENTER: DURING THE TIME SIR DOUGLAS WAS TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER, SIR TIPENE O'REGAN WAS THE KEY FIGURE FOR THE NGAI TAHU TRIBE. HE SAYS THE IWI KNEW THAT TO GET A SETTLEMENT IT WOULD HAVE TO ACCEPT IT WOULD NEVER GET ANYTHING NEAR WHAT ITS LAND LOSSES WERE WORTH SO IT ACCEPTED THE $170MILLION OFFERED BY THE CROWN. SIR TIPENE O'REGAN (NGAI TAHU CHIEF NEGOTIATOR) : WE KNEW PERFECTLY WELL AND STATED AT THE TIME, THAT THE ASSESSED VALUE OF NGAI TAHU'S LOSS IN 1990 DOLLARS WAS SOMETHING OF THE ORDER OF $16BILLION. THE QUESTION IS THOUGH, THAT AT THAT TIME THE SOCIETY COULD NOT HAVE CONTEMPLATED A FIGURE OF THAT KIND. THE QUESTION WAS, WHAT WAS ENOUGH TO GIVE NGAI TAHU A PLATFORM THAT COULD DRIVE IT FORWARD. PRESENTER: SIR TIPENE SAYS THE TRIBE WOULD HAVE LIKED WIDER PUBLIC RECOGNITION FOR NOT HOLDING UP THE PROCESS BY DEMANDING A LARGER SETTLEMENT. INSTEAD THEY CONSIDERED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THEY ACCEPTED IN SETTLEMENT AND THE TRUE VALUE OF THEIR LAND LOSSES A TRIBAL CONTRIBUTION TO THE NATION'S DEVELOPMENT. SIR TIPENE SAYS NGAI TAHU DID ASK, AS DID WAIKATO TAINUI, FOR THE THEN NATIONAL GOVERNMENT TO RUN A TREATY AWARENESS AND EDUCATION PROGRAMME FOR THE WIDER PUBLIC, SO HE SAYS THE CALLS NOW FOR A PUBLIC EDUCATION CAMPAIGN ARE NOT NEW. O'REGAN: THE CROWN HAS ON THE WHOLE, AVOIDED DEALING WITH THOSE .. AVOIDED DOING THAT BECAUSE I THINK TO SOME EXTENT IT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO. IT'S ALL VERY WELL TO SAY THERE SHOULD BE A CAMPAIGN BUT WHAT IS THE SHAPE AND NATURE OF THAT CAMPAIGN, GIVEN THE KIND OF POLITICAL ATTACKS THAT COME UPON YOU WHEN YOU TRY TO DO SOMETHING IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AROUND THESE QUESTIONS, OR IN THE PUBLIC MEDIA. PRESENTER: BUT SIR DOUGLAS GRAHAM SAYS HE DOUBTS A PUBLIC AWARENESS CAMPAIGN AT THE TIME WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED MUCH. HE SAYS WHEN HE WAS THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER, THE WIDER PUBLIC SHOWED LITTLE APPETITE FOR FINDING OUT MORE ABOUT THE TREATY PROCESS AND HE DOESN'T BELIEVE MUCH HAS CHANGED. GRAHAM: SO TO ACTUALLY PUBLISH SOME MATERIAL AND TELL THEM HOW WE WERE SETTLING IT AND WHY AND WHAT THE PROCEDURE WAS, THEY COULDN'T CARE LESS AND IF YOU PUT IT IN THE LETTERBOX, I THINK IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT IN THE RUBBISH TIN AND IT MIGHT EVEN TURN THEM OFF EVEN FURTHER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE. PRESENTER: WHAT ABOUT NOW? GRAHAM: I THINK IT STILL APPLIES. PRESENTER: EVEN WITH THE WEARINESS? GRAHAM: EVEN MORE SO. I THINK .. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALLY CAN BE BOTHERED. THOSE WHO CAN BE BOTHERED AND WANT TO FIND OUT, THERE'S OODLES OF MATERIAL AROUND. PRESENTER: BUT SIR DOUGLAS' VIEW IS STRONGLY REJECTED BY MAORI POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, PROFESSOR RANGINUI WALKER. HE SAYS THE REASON THERE IS SO MUCH ANGER AND FRUSTRATION IS THAT PEOPLE AREN'T BEING GIVEN THE INFORMATION THEY WANT IN A USER FRIENDLY FORM. PROFESSOR WALKER SAYS HE BELIEVES ONLY A MINORITY OF NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD STILL HAVE CLOSED MINDS ON THE ISSUE IF THEY WERE PRESENTED WITH MORE OF THE FACTS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF EUROPEAN SETTLEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY. PROFESSOR RANGINUI WALKER (MAORI POLITICAL COMMENTATOR) : WELL, THERE'S A CERTAIN AGE GROUP THAT ARE PAST REDEMPTION. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDE AND ATTITUDINAL CHANGE IS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT THINGS TO BRING ABOUT, PARTICULARLY WITH THE OLDER AGE GROUP. THEIR IDEAS ARE FIXED SO YOU JUST WAIT FOR THOSE PEOPLE TO DIE OUT AS THE REAL FACTS OF THE HISTORY ARE PUT BEFORE THE NEXT INCOMING GENERATION. AND ONE WOULD HOPE THAT WHATEVER SYSTEM OF PUBLIC EDUCATION THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO INITIATE, WILL ADDRESS THESE COMMON HISTORICAL MYTHS AND STEREOTYPES. PRESENTER: PROFESSOR WALKER SAYS THE PUBLIC SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER INFORMED YEARS AGO. HE SAYS EVEN LABOUR PROMISED IT WOULD DEVELOP A PUBLIC EDUCATION PROGRAMME SIX YEARS AGO, A PROMISE THAT IS YET TO BE DELIVERED. WALKER: BOTH LABOUR AND GOVERNMENT ARE COMMITTED TO THE TREATY SETTLEMENT PROCESS. IT IS IRREVERSIBLE, BUT THEY ARE NOT TAKING THE ELECTORATE WITH THEM AND THAT'S WHY AT EVERY ELECTION YOU WILL GET POLITICIANS COMING OUT AND TARGETING MAORI TREATY. THEY'RE EASY BROWNIE POINTS, PARDON THE PUN. PRESENTER: PROFESSOR WALKER WANTS TO SEE TREATY CLAIMS EDUCATION MADE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE SCHOOL CURRICULUM, AS WELL AS ANY SHORT-TERM AWARENESS CAMPAIGN. MARGARET WILSON IS CAUTIOUS ABOUT THAT IDEA. SHE SAYS SHE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE WIDER PUBLIC MORE INFORMED ABOUT THE REASONS FOR TREATY SETTLEMENTS BUT THERE IS SO MUCH INFORMATION NOW THAT IT'S NOT SUCH AN EASY JOB TO SIMPLIFY IT ALL DOWN TO A USER FRIENDLY FORM. MS WILSON ALSO SAYS RATHER THAN A LONG-TERM EDUCATION PROGRAMME ABOUT THE TREATY PROCESS AND THE HISTORY OF CLAIMS, SHE PREFERS SOMETHING THAT COVERS THE BASICS. WILSON: REALLY FOR ME PERSONALLY, WHAT IT'S ABOUT IS NOT SO MUCH EDUCATION WHICH IS SOMETIMES SEEN AS BEING A LITTLE MANIPULATIVE, BUT MORE ABOUT PUTTING OUT INFORMATION THERE AND GIVING THE CONTEXT AND EXPLAINING WHY WE'RE DOING WHAT WE'RE DOING AND WHERE IT COMES FROM AND WHERE IT'S GOING. PRESENTER: MARGARET WILSON HOPES TO PUT SOME DRAFT PROPOSALS FOR A PUBLIC EDUCATION AND AWARENESS CAMPAIGN TO HER CABINET COLLEAGUES BEFORE THE END OF MARCH BUT IT MAY BE ANOTHER YEAR YET BEFORE ANYTHING IS READY TO BE RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC. BUT SOME MAORI ARE SCEPTICAL ABOUT A PUBLIC AWARENESS OR EDUCATION PROGRAMME EVER BECOMING A REALITY. PROFESSOR MARGARET MUTU IS THE HEAD OF AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY'S MAORI STUDIES DEPARTMENT. SHE'S ALSO A CLAIMS NEGOTIATOR FOR THE NGATI KAHU IWI OF NORTHLAND. PROFESSOR MUTU SAYS SIX YEARS AFTER FIRST PROMISING SUCH A CAMPAIGN, LABOUR HAS FAILED TO DELIVER. PROFESSOR MARGARET MUTU (HEAD OF MAORI STUDIES DEPARTMENT, UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND): AND YET OTHER PARTS OF GOVERNMENT, WHEN THEY WANT TO GET A MESSAGE THROUGH ABOUT YOU KNOW, STOPPING SMOKING OR GETTING THE ROAD TOLL DOWN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, MASSIVE RESOURCES GO IN TO MAKING SURE THAT THE COUNTRY IS WELL INFORMED. LOOK AT THE EDUCATION PROGRAMMES FOR THE ELECTORAL PROCESS, HUGE. SO WHERE THERE'S A WILL THE RESOURCES CAN BE FOUND AND THERE'S SOME VERY GOOD PEOPLE TO DO IT. (MAORI CHANT) PRESENTER: VINCE O'MALLEY IS AN HISTORIAN WHO'S RESEARCHED TREATY CLAIMS FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS. HE SAYS ANY AWARENESS PROGRAMME MUST HIGHLIGHT THAT IT CAN TAKES YEARS TO SEARCH OUT RECORDS, DOCUMENTS, ORAL HISTORIES AND OTHER INFORMATION WHICH IS ALL NECESSARY IF CLAIMS ARE TO BE DEALT WITH PROPERLY. VINCE O'MALLEY (HISTORIAN): THERE'S MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PAGES OF DOCUMENTS IN NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND ELSEWHERE THAT HAVE TO BE TROLLED THROUGH IN THE COURSE OF RESEARCHING THE CLAIMS NATIONALLY TO THE TRIBUNAL, AND ALSO THAT THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL DOESN'T SIMPLY RUBBER STAMP CLAIMS WITHOUT SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE. CONTRARY TO WHAT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK, MAORI HAVE ACTUALLY LOST ENTIRE CLAIMS BEFORE THE TRIBUNAL, OR SOMETIMES IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF THEIR CLAIM. PRESENTER: MR O'MALLEY SAYS PEOPLE ARE BEING GIVEN THE FALSE IMPRESSION BY SOME POLITICIANS THAT SETTING DEADLINES AND RUSHING THE PROCESS WILL ACTUALLY WORK. HE SAYS MANY PEOPLE DON'T REALISE OTHER ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE PAST TO ADDRESS MAORI TREATY GRIEVANCES BUT, BECAUSE THEY WERE CARRIED OUT IN AN AD HOC FASHION, NONE OF THEM WERE SEEN BY MAORI AS FULL AND FINAL. O'MALLEY: I DO THINK ALSO THAT THERE'S A TENDENCY FOR PEOPLE TO BECOME SOMEWHAT OBSESSED BY THE NEED TO SPEED UP THE PROCESS WHEN IT'S EQUALLY IMPORTANT, I THINK, TO ENSURE THAT IT'S ONE THAT'S GOING TO RESULT IN DURABLE SETTLEMENTS AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BY CUTTING CORNERS. I MEAN THERE WAS A WHOLE RAFT OF SO-CALLED SETTLEMENTS OF SOME OF THE LARGER CLAIMS IN THE 1940'S BUT, BECAUSE THEY WERE BASED ON ALMOST NO RESEARCH, NOBODY ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS BEING SETTLED. AND ALSO THE FACT THAT THE FIRST LABOUR GOVERNMENT FAILED TO TAKE THE TIME TO MEANINGFULLY CONSULT WITH MAORI AT THAT TIME MEANT THAT THESE WEREN'T DURABLE SETTLEMENTS AT ALL. PRESENTER: MEANWHILE AT AN OCTOBER CEREMONY FOR TUWHARETOA KI KAWERAU THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER, MARGARET WILSON, CALLED FOR PATIENCE FROM ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. SHE INCLUDED MAORI CLAIMANTS WHO THEMSELVES ARE FRUSTRATED BY HOW LONG IT'S TAKING TO HAVE THEIR CLAIMS RESEARCHED, HEARD AND THEN NEGOTIATED TO A FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT. IN A SPEECH TO THOSE GATHERED AT THE CEREMONY, MS WILSON SAID THAT EVEN IF IT TAKES MANY YEARS MORE TO RESOLVE CLAIMS, FOR THE SAKE OF HARMONIOUS FUTURE RACE RELATIONS IT MUST BE DONE. WILSON: WE'RE EMBARKED UPON A LONG PATHWAY, TOO LONG FOR SOME, BUT AT TIMES A NECESSARILY LONG PATHWAY IF WE ARE TO ESTABLISH THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US THAT WOULD ENABLE US TO GO FURTHER. PRESENTER: BUT THE PROBLEM FOR MS WILSON IS THAT MANY NEW ZEALANDERS FEEL IT'S ALREADY TAKEN TOO LONG. MARGARET WILSON REJECTS CRITICISM THE LABOUR-LED GOVERNMENT IS DRAGGING THE CHAIN OVER TREATY SETTLEMENTS AND SHE SAYS THE PROCESS IS GAINING MOMENTUM, BUT EVEN THE MOST OPTIMISTIC FORECASTS ARE THAT TREATY SETTLEMENTS WILL NOT BE COMPLETED FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER 20 YEARS. (MAORI SONG) PRESENTER: HOWEVER KEY PLAYERS IN THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS ARE OPTIMISTIC THAT LESSONS LEARNED AND SYSTEMS PUT IN PLACE, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THAT TIMEFRAME. NO-ONE WANTS TO PUT A DEFINITIVE FIGURE ON IT BUT THEY SAY YEARS COULD BE SAVED. THOSE KEY PLAYERS ARE THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, THE OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS AND THE CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST, ALL OF WHOM HAVE MADE A COMMITMENT TO WORK MORE CLOSELY TOGETHER TO STREAMLINE THE TREATY PROCESS, AND THEY BELIEVE THE KEY TO SPEEDING UP THE PROCESS IS TO DEAL WITH GROUPINGS OF CLAIMANTS RATHER THAN INDIVIDUAL CLAIMS WHERE POSSIBLE. THE ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, MAORI LAND COURT CHIEF JUDGE JOE WILLIAMS, SAYS THIS APPROACH HAS ALREADY SAVED EXTRA YEARS OF CLAIMS HEARINGS IN THE GISBORNE DISTRICT AND HE HOPES IT CAN BE USED JUST AS SUCCESSFULLY IN THOSE PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE CLAIMS ARE STILL TO BE HEARD. JOE WILLIAMS (MAORI LAND COURT CHIEF JUDGE, AND ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL) : THERE ARE 36 INQUIRY DISTRICTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, 21 OF THEM LEFT. OUR AIM IS TO COMPLETE 3 INQUIRY DISTRICTS A YEAR, TO HAVE 3 INQUIRY DISTRICTS IN PREPARATION, 3 IN HEARING, 3 BEING REPORTED ON AND 3 IN NEGOTIATION. AND IF WE CAN DO THAT, THEN WE'LL FINISH OUR SIDE OF THE JOB BY SOMETIME BETWEEN 2007 AND 2010. PRESENTER: CHIEF JUDGE WILLIAMS SAYS PEOPLE ARE GETTING AGITATED BECAUSE THEY HEAR THERE ARE NOW 1000 INDIVIDUAL CLAIMS BEFORE THE TRIBUNAL BUT HE SAYS THAT'S LARGELY IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THE NEW GROUP APPROACH WILL SEE LARGE NUMBERS OF CLAIMANT GROUPS DEALT WITH AT THE SAME TIME. CHIEF JUDGE WILLIAMS DECLINED TO COMMENT ABOUT CRITICISM THAT THE TRIBUNAL IS UNDER-FUNDED BUT DID CONCEDE THAT A DOUBLING OF ITS CURRENT $5MILLION ANNUAL BUDGET WOULD GIVE IT ENOUGH EXTRA STAFF AND RESOURCES TO SHAVE FURTHER YEARS OFF THE TIMETABLE FOR THE TRIBUNAL'S HEARINGS. HE ALSO SAYS COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES TRYING TO SETTLE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS, NEW ZEALAND'S PROCESS IS COST EFFECTIVE. WILLIAMS: BY COMPARISON TO THE WAY THEY'RE UNDERTAKEN ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD WE ARE CHEAP. IF YOU LOOK FOR EXAMPLE AT BRITISH COLUMBIA IN CANADA WHERE THE TREATY CLAIMS PROCESS IS, AS WE WOULD CALL IT, IS UNDERTAKEN IN THE LAST TEN YEARS I THINK AN OFFICIAL TOLD ME, ABOUT $BOOMILLION HAD BEEN SPENT. NOT A BEAN OF A SETTLEMENT, NOT A SINGLE SETTLEMENT. NOW, IN THIS COUNTRY THE MONEY HAS BEEN SPENT BUT WE HAVE I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY SETTLEMENTS, MANY SIGNIFICANT SETTLEMENTS INCLUDING THE WHOLE NATIONAL FISHERIES SETTLEMENT, NGAI TAHU, TAINUI AND SO ON AND SO ON. SO WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS HERE AND WE ARE MORE EFFICIENT PROBABLY THAN JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT PARTLY THAT IS A RESULT OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT TRIBUNAL WORK THROUGH THE FACTS AND WITH THE COMMUNITIES, IT'S PARTLY AS A RESULT OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL. PRESENTER: HOWEVER CHIEF JUDGE WILLIAMS SAYS THE GOOD WILL OF THE GENERAL POPULACE TOWARDS THE PROCESS WILL NOT IMPROVE UNLESS THEY ARE BETTER INFORMED ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING. WILLIAMS: I THINK PUBLIC EDUCATION IS CRUCIAL TO HAVING NEW ZEALAND UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF TREATY GRIEVANCES AND THE NECESSITY TO SETTLE THEM. I KNOW THAT THE MINISTER OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS HAS THE SAME VIEW AND HAS SAID THAT A CAMPAIGN SHOULD BE RUN. I KNOW THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS GOING ON ABOUT HOW THAT SHOULD BE DONE. I'D LIKE TO SEE IT DONE QUICKLY. IT'S ABOUT TIME. (MAORI CHANT) PRESENTER: AT THE MOMENT A BODY CALLED THE CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST IS FUNDING UP TO 80% OF ALL RESEARCH FOR CLAIMS LODGED WITH THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL. IN THE LAST 12 YEARS IT'S SPENT CLOSE TO $50MILLION ON RESEARCH-RELATED FUNDING. THE TRUST GETS ITS FUNDING FROM THE INTEREST EARNED ON THE RENTALS WHICH FORESTRY COMPANIES PAY FOR CROWN FOREST LANDS. NEARLY ALL OF THOSE LANDS ARE SUBJECT TO MAORI CLAIMS. LIKE THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, THE CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST HAS MOVED TO A POLICY OF PRIORITISING FUNDING ON A GROUP OR CLUSTER APPROACH TO SPEED UP THE CLAIMS PROCESS. THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THIS IS THE GROUPING TOGETHER OF MORE THAN 100 CLAIMS FOR THE CENTRAL NORTH ISLAND FORESTRY LANDS. THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST IS SIR GRAHAM LATIMER. HE SAYS IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF THE PUBLIC HAD A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ROLE DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS PLAY IN THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS BUT SIR GRAHAM SAYS WHATEVER THE PERCEPTION OF THE PUBLIC, MAORI WILL CONTINUE TO PUSH FOR THE RIGHTS THEY WERE PROMISED UNDER THE TREATY OF WAITANGI. SIR GRAHAM LATIMER (CHAIRPERSON, CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST) : THE OLD PEOPLE SAID UNLESS WE HAVE OUR OWN RESOURCES WE WILL NOT FLOURISH IN THIS COUNTRY AND TODAY WE'VE GOT ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF FISH, PROBABLY CLOSE TO A BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF FORESTS. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF LAND THAT'S BEEN RETURNED TO THE PEOPLE AND THAT, AND THOSE RESOURCES WILL HELP OUR YOUNG PEOPLE BECAUSE WE WON'T BE BEGGING FOR THE RESOURCES, WE WILL BE PROVIDING THOSE RESOURCES FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE. PRESENTER: THE OTHER KEY PLAYER IN THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS IS THE OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS. IT'S THE MINISTRY DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE TO TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER, MARGARET WILSON, AND IT LEADS SETTLEMENT NEGOTIATIONS WITH MAORI CLAIMANT GROUPS. IT ALSO BELIEVES LARGE NATURAL GROUPINGS AS IT CALLS THEM, ARE THE BEST WAY TO SPEED UP THE PROCESS. ANDREW HAMPTON IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS. HE SAYS IN THE PAST IT WAS TAKING SEVERAL YEARS TO SETTLE SINGLE CLAIMS BUT NOW, BY DEALING WITH CLAIMS IN CLUSTERS, IT MEANS INDIVIDUAL CLAIMS WITHIN THOSE GROUPS CAN BE SETTLED FAIRLY QUICKLY ONCE THE MAJOR ISSUES HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATED. ANDREW HAMPTON (DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS): I DON'T THINK THAT MESSAGE IS GETTING OUT THERE AS MUCH AS IT COULD. FOR EXAMPLE A SETTLEMENT EVERY SIX MONTHS IS A HECK OF A LOT FASTER THAN WE HAD IN THE PAST. I THINK THINGS WILL BE ABLE TO BE SPED UP EVEN FURTHER IN TIME BUT WE'VE ALWAYS GOT TO KEEP IN MIND THIS POTENTIAL TRADE-OFF BETWEEN SPEED AND DURABILITY. PRESENTER: THE OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS ALSO INTRODUCED A THREE-PERSON CLAIMS DEVELOPMENT TEAM LAST YEAR. ITS KEY JOB IS TO HELP CUT RED TAPE AND FACILITATE A SMOOTHER PATH TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE FOR CLAIMANTS. ANDREW HAMPTON SAYS THAT TOO IS SPEEDING UP THE PROCESS. THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER IS NON-COMMITTAL ABOUT INCREASING THE FUNDING OF EITHER THE OFFICE OF TREATY SETTLEMENTS OR THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL. MARGARET WILSON SAYS IF IT BECOMES OBVIOUS IT'S NEEDED, SHE WILL SEEK EXTRA FUNDING FROM CABINET BUT FOR NOW SHE SAYS IMPROVING THE CO-OPERATION OF ALL PARTIES INVOLVED WOULD DO MORE TO SPEED THE PROCESS UP. WILSON: WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS, AT THE MOMENT, IS TO SAY CAN WE CONTRACT THAT PROCESS WHERE WE CAN HAVE THE TRIBUNAL RUNNING BUT WE CAN ALSO BE ENTERING INTO NEGOTIATIONS AND DISCUSSIONS WITH CLAIMANT GROUPS. NOW, IF THAT'S THE CASE THEN I THINK WE CAN CONTRACT THE PERIOD AND FROM MEMORY I THINK IT'S 2010 THE TRIBUNAL WITH THE CASEBOOKS IN ITS HEARING SCHEDULE, THOUGH WE ARE OF COURSE RESOURCING IT AND THE TRIBUNAL ITSELF IS TRYING TO HASTEN THE TIME IT TAKES FOR THE SETTLEMENT SO .. BUT EVEN I THINK IF THEY WERE THROUGH BY 2010, THAT WOULD BE REALISTIC WHICH AFTER ALL IS ONLY ANOTHER 8 YEARS AND THAT SEEMS A LONG TIME BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, IT'S A REMARKABLY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. PRESENTER: PROFESSOR MARGARET MUTU SAYS WHILE THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS COULD BE IMPROVED AND SPED UP, SHE'S IRRITATED OVER WHAT SHE SAYS ARE CONSTANT ATTACKS ON HOW MUCH THE PROCESS HAS COST AND HOW MUCH MAORI ARE RECEIVING IN SETTLEMENTS. PROFESSOR MUTU SAYS IT SEEMS CLEAR TO HER THAT MUCH OF THE CRITICISM LEVELLED AT HOW MUCH THE PROCESS IS COSTING THE COUNTRY IS UNFAIR WHEN IT'S COMPARED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE GOVERNMENT HAS HAD TO PAY OUT IN OTHER AREAS IN RECENT YEARS. MUTU: THE EQUITICORP ONE, HARDLY AN EYELID WAS BLINKED WHEN A HUGE AMOUNT WAS PAID OVER THE .. GREATER THAN THE TAINUI SETTLEMENT WAS PAID FOR ONE COMPANY. NOBODY BLINKS AN EYELID. NOBODY BLINKS AN EYELID AT AIR NEW ZEALAND AND THE HUGE BAIL-OUTS FOR AIR NEW ZEALAND, AND YET MAORI GET A COUPLE OF MILLION DOLLARS AND EVERYBODY IS UP IN ARMS. PRESENTER: PROFESSOR MUTU SAYS SHE'S ALSO BEEN APPALLED AT HOW QUICKLY POLITICIANS HAVE PANDERED TO PUBLIC FRUSTRATIONS BY MAKING PROMISES THAT SOUND GOOD IN THEORY BUT WON'T WORK IN PRACTICE. SHE SAYS NATIONAL AND THE ACT PARTY'S PLEDGES OF IMPOSING ARBITRARY DEADLINES, PARTICULARLY OVER GETTING CLAIMS SETTLED, WILL SIMPLY SEE A RESURGENCE IN MAORI PROTEST AND RADICALISM. BUT THE LEADER OF THE NATIONAL PARTY, BILL ENGLISH, SAYS THE PROCESS CAN AND MUST BE SEEN TO MOVE FASTER THAN IT IS AT THE MOMENT. HE SAYS OTHERWISE THE RISK IS THAT THE WIDER PUBLIC WILL NOT ONLY LOSE THEIR PATIENCE FOR THE PROCESS, THEY MAY DEMAND IT BE CLOSED OFF AND HE SAYS THAT WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR ALL CONCERNED. BILL ENGLISH (NATIONAL LEADER) : WE FIND THE IDEA OF A DEADLINE QUITE ATTRACTIVE, PARTICULARLY A DEADLINE ABOUT NEW CLAIMS BUT ALSO A DEADLINE ABOUT GETTING THEM RESOLVED BECAUSE I BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE QUITE CAPABLE OF DEALING WITH THESE ISSUES IN A WAY THAT WILL MAINTAIN PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THEM IF GOVERNMENT AND MAORI ARE SEEN TO BE GETTING ON WITH SORTING OUT THE PROBLEMS THAT GOVERNMENT'S CREATED. IN A WIDER .. THE WIDER POPULATION DOESN'T SEE ITSELF AS IMPLICATED IN THESE CLAIMS. THEY'VE BEEN EDUCATED THAT IT'S THE GOVERNMENT, THE CROWN RESOLVING ITS OWN BREACHES OF THE TREATY. WHY DON'T THEY JUST GET ON WITH IT. PRESENTER: BILL ENGLISH IS ADAMANT THAT THE NATIONAL PARTY WOULD BE ABLE TO CLOSE OFF THE LODGEMENT OF CLAIMS WITHIN ONE YEAR AND AT LEAST HAVE ALL HISTORICAL CLAIMS HEARD BY THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL WITHIN FIVE TO EIGHT YEARS. HE SAYS BOOSTED RESOURCES WOULD THEN BE TARGETED AT SIGNIFICANTLY SPEEDING UP SETTLEMENT NEGOTIATIONS. BUT ANOTHER POLITICIAN, WINSTON PETERS, SAYS THE MAIN ISSUES FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF MAORI PEOPLE DO NOT REVOLVE AROUND TREATY SETTLEMENTS. HE SAYS HOUSING, HEALTH, EDUCATION, UPSKILLING AND BETTER INCOMES ARE THE PRIORITIES AND HE HAS A RADICAL IDEA FOR RESOLVING ALL TREATY CLAIMS IN A ONE-OFF DEAL. WINSTON PETERS (LEADER, NEW ZEALAND FIRST) : WELL, I WOULD TRY AND DO A DEAL WITH THE MASS MAJORITY OF MAORI AND THAT WOULD REQUIRE ONE TO IGNORE SOME OF THE SELF-APPOINTED MAORI LEADERSHIP, AND THE DEAL WOULD BE THAT WE WOULD FOCUS ON THE FIVE THINGS I'VE MENTIONED AND DELIVER FIRST-WORLD OUTCOMES THERE BECAUSE WHAT YOU'VE GOT NOW IS NOTHING LIKE A FIRST-WORLD OUTCOME, IT'S QUITE THE CONVERSE. PRESENTER: BUT SIR TIPENE O'REGAN SAYS ANY MOVES TO ARBITRARILY FORCE THE PROCESS TO MOVE FASTER OR CHANGE IT COMPLETELY IS LIKELY TO BACKFIRE. HE SAYS NGAI TAHU'S CLAIM TOOK 12 YEARS TO COMPLETE BUT IT WAS ALLOWED TO RUN ITS COURSE AND THEREFORE IS UNLIKELY TO COME BACK TO HAUNT FUTURE GOVERNMENTS. SIR TIPENE SAYS PEOPLE ALSO NEED TO REMEMBER THAT THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS IS RELATIVELY YOUNG COMPARED TO SOME ISSUES. O'REGAN: AUCKLAND'S ROADS WOULD BE AN INTERESTING EXAMPLE. THERE'S STILL ENORMOUS DEBATE ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT. NOW, THESE PROCESSES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARE GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME. THEY TOOK A LONG TIME TO FORM. THEY'VE BECOME EMBEDDED IN THE NATIONAL CULTURE. THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE QUITE A LONG TIME TO UNWIND. PRESENTER: AND A FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND AN EXPERT IN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, SIR GEOFFREY PALMER, SAYS THE TREATY IS HERE TO STAY AND THE BEST COURSE IS TO KEEP GOING WITH THE PROCESS BUT ALSO TO KEEP TRYING TO IMPROVE IT. SIR GEOFFREY PALMER (FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND EXPERT IN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW) : THE TREATY INDUSTRY WHICH IS OFTEN VILIFIED AND ATTACKED 3Y MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW COMPLEX SOME OF THESE WRONGS AND GRIEVANCES WERE AND STILL ARE, THEY HAVE NOT APPRECIATED THAT THIS IS ABOUT JUSTICE. YOU CAN'T HAVE A MINORITY PART OF THE POPULATION LABOURING UNDER A CONTINUING SENSE OF INJUSTICE BECAUSE THOSE THINGS THAT THE CROWN SAID WOULD BE DONE, HAVE NOT BEEN DONE, AND THAT'S WHAT THE TREATY IS ABOUT. AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF IT NOW THAN THERE WAS 20 YEARS AGO, BUT THERE'S MORE UNDERSTANDING REQUIRED YET. IT GOES BACK TO THE POINT ABOUT HOW MUCH NEW ZEALANDERS KNOW ABOUT THEIR OWN HISTORY AND THEIR OWN METHODS OF GOVERNANCE. PRESENTER: MARGARET WILSON SAYS THE LABOUR-LED GOVERNMENT IS COMMITTED TO SETTLING TREATY CLAIMS AS EXPEDITIOUSLY AS POSSIBLE AND SHE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A PUBLIC AWARENESS AND EDUCATION POLICY IN PLACE THIS YEAR, BUT SHE SAYS EVEN THEN PATIENCE WOULD STILL BE NEEDED BECAUSE IT'S UNLIKELY THAT THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS PROCESS WILL END WITHIN THE NEXT DECADE. WILSON: WHEN I EXPLAIN OUR PROCESS, PARTICULARLY TO PEOPLE FROM OVERSEAS, THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF ADMIRATION AND INTEREST BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH THESE HARD ISSUES. WE'RE NOT IGNORING THEM, WE'RE NOT SWEEPING THEM UNDER THE CARPET AND AS THEY SAY, LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF AFRICA, LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF LATIN AMERICA. IF YOU DON'T ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE HONESTLY THOSE INJUSTICES AND GRIEVANCES IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY, THEY DON'T GO AWAY, THEY JUST FESTER. PRESENTER (CHRIS LAIDLAW): THAT INSIGHT WAS WRITTEN AND PRESENTED BY GIDEON PORTER.