Tonight ` Like the Chinese water torture. this time the cold-callers called the wrong guy. Do it yourself, for yourself, against the person who's causing the grief. The way his ad was, I thought, 'Oh, well, he must do a very good job.' Uh, no. That took a kind neighbour and a generous tradie. She's just a lovely old lady who wanted her fence finished. And... Oh no! ...is the insurance company right? If there's a crash while you're reversing, you are automatically at fault. My heart is just sinking. Copyright Able 2014 Welcome to Fair Go. Cold-callers ` telemarketers who call you just as you're feeding your kids or settling in for your favourite show. Ever wanted to get them off your back? A British man has shown it is possible. He successfully sued them for wasting his time. Would it work here? I think, as human beings, most of us say, 'Oh, I don't like that. I'm fed up with that.' But we don't actually... do anything. Richard Herman fought the cold-callers and won. He lives in the UK, but holidays with family here in NZ. We were getting one or two calls a day. WOMAN: Do you actually have a claim on a mortgage, loan or credit card that you'd like us to look into? It was enough to irritate. (SPEAKS RAPIDLY AND INDISTINCTLY) It was like the Chinese water torture ` you know, just... Mm. Annoying. It was always the same outfit ` a British company signing people up to collect refunds that might be owed after a huge insurance mis-selling scandal in the UK. Could you be owed �1000? �3000? Maybe even more? But Richard was the wrong guy to call. Cos my business was in telephone recording, I know something about the telephone technology kind of thing. And I cottoned on after a while that we were being called by a computerised telephone dialler. The only way to stop it ` wait and get put through to a real person. When that happened, Richard tried costing them time. As I've had my time taken by your organisation, I'm taking your time. He also started charging for his inconvenience. I've charged, for my time for speaking to anybody, at �10 a minute. And I assumed that would be the end of it, because I obviously wasn't a lead for them. But, to his astonishment, a couple of days later... I was called again! And that whole thing worked out to be 19� minutes. So I wrote to them with an invoice for �195. (LAUGHS) No reply at first, but when Richard mentioned the Small Claims Court ` the UK's equivalent of our Disputes Tribunal ` the company paid out. I was absolutely thrilled, actually, because it's... As individuals, we feel that we can't do anything with the big companies. Essentially, he'd made and recorded a verbal contract with the cold-caller based on age-old principles of offer, acceptance and consideration of payment. I said, 'You can call me if you want to, and the consideration is �10 a minute, 'and your showing of acceptance of it is your calling me.' But, remember, this all happened under British law. So Richard can sue the telemarketers and win here, but could you do it and win here? I have to say it's very hard to see a claim like this being successful in NZ. Proving there was a real contract would be very tough. But, more importantly... Anyone making that claim would have a pretty hard time saying that, 'I had to spend this time on this call.' The natural question would be, 'Well, why didn't you just hang up the phone?' But the good news is changes to our consumer laws next month will make life harder for the cold-callers. The Door to Door Sales Act is being replaced by new protections applying to all uninvited direct sales over $100 ` tele-sales included. You'll have a five-working-day cooling-off period in which to cancel any uninvited direct sale, regardless of how you paid. Salespeople who break the law will face new penalties, like an instant fine if they don't tell you about the cooling-off period. This act represents a pretty dramatic simplification of this area of law. It actually brings a few areas together into one. Um, and I think, on balance, it will actually have a lot less people coming through our doors. Even if Richard's anti-tele-sales tactic might not work for Kiwis, he hopes his story highlights the power we as consumers have to fight back. Not trying to get government bodies to do something ` do it yourself, for yourself, against the person who's causing the grief. Nice one, Richard. By the way, yes, that was me in London. But I didn't fly to London specifically for that. Actually filmed that last year on holiday. Actually filmed that last year on holiday. The budget doesn't stretch that far. Now, here in NZ, we have a Do Not Call register. That's for households who don't want to be cold-called. To join, visit marketing.org.nz and look under 'Services'. They also have Do Not Mail, by the way. Or you can call 0800 222 332. But that list works only for the legit companies that sign up to it. It won't stop the scammers, like the computer-virus cold-callers. You can find the link on our website if you missed it, plus more information on the new law changes and how they will affect you. And, as you might have seen, Richard has set up a website called... Have a look at that for a bit of inspiration. After the break ` 'Oh, you're not one of those cowboys that take the money and run and don't finish the job?' He said, 'No, I wouldn't do that to you, Joan.' But he did. And, later,... So, you were reversing like that? ...reversing into a whole lot of trouble. Do you think he should have seen you? Do you think he should have seen you? He should have. He must have. Welcome back. Something a bit special now ` something wonderful that happened last Christmas. It starts, typically enough, with a woman left out of pocket by a tradie who got the money up front, did some of the work and then walked off the job. But it ends rather differently, thanks to a smart neighbour and a kind and decent building company. Here's Hannah. Bridie. Come. When you're disabled, like Joan, when just walking is a pain,... Good girl. ...this is the sort of response you want to hear from a builder. He said he'd be here every day. Come on, Bridie. When you need fencing to keep your doggie happy, this is what you're after. He said it was going to be done within, you know, seven to 10 days. So, new fence, quick job, safe dog ` happy owner. Wherever I go, she goes. < So she looks after you? < So she looks after you? Mm. How would you feel if you lost her? If she took off? How would you feel if you lost her? If she took off? Devastated. Joan found her fencing contractor in her local paper. He was Clint Norton of Norton Fencing. The way his ad was, I thought, 'Oh, well, he must do a very good job.' Here's Joan's place before Norton's work began. Their quote ` almost $11,000 ` included an electric gate. Very important, with Joan's disabilities. But Joan says the job dragged on and on. What sort of hours was he doing? What sort of hours was he doing? He would come for a couple of hours, then disappear, then he'd come back for an hour, then gone for the rest of the day. The fence was almost finished, but no electric gate. Joan's friend and neighbour Irene got involved. Oh, I wouldn't know what to do if I never had her coming round. Weeks and then months of phone calls followed. Joan and I had been ringing and ringing and leaving numerous messages on his phone, hadn't we? The job had been going nine months by this stage and still not finished. They sent this letter to Clint Norton. 'If I do not hear from you within 10 working days 'with a plan to complete the work, then further action will be taken.' Result ` the electric gate was hung, but with no motor and no connections. Not much use. Joan remembers an early conversation she'd had when handing the money over. I said to him, 'You're not one of those cowboys who take the money and run and don't finish the job?' He said, 'No, I wouldn't do that to you, Joan.' Well, you have to question the work ethic here ` how you can claim to do a job in two weeks, take full payment and still not finish the job. But Irene had a cunning plan involving this website. It's a bit like Trade Me. It's a site for tradie-type jobs. So I thought that I would post a job on Builderscrack, just to query how much it would cost to have the job finished off. And something a bit special happened. It was the week before Christmas,... CHRISTMASSY TINKLING ...and Joan was about to meet a generous bearded chappie. His name was Wes, from ASAP Builders. He looked at the job and said, 'I'll do it ` and do it for free. Merry Christmas.' Nice to meet you finally. Nice to meet you finally. Nice to meet you after all this time. Wes' team finished the job just days before Christmas ` beer and cake their reward. People like Joan have not very much at all. Just to be able to do something nice for someone at Christmas was quite cool. The first job was to make the electric gate electric. So, we had our electrician come, we dug the trench for the cables, and he just had it wired in. It was quite a bit of work to do. We had two guys on site for a day and a half. The fence palings were uneven lengths. It was out with skill saw to even those off. And they had to fix a hole in the fence. In the corner, there's a gap of about 250 mil, where the dog could get under. Another unfinished job, this gate ` an important barrier to keeping Bridie out of this swampy creek. This hole here, he'd just tacked some green mesh across it. This fence here finished right here, and there was a gap in the middle. So we've had to add in a section here to stop the dog getting out. It's a lack of finishing, lack of care. It's a lack of finishing, lack of care. Yeah. More problems with the nails used. Instead of nailing it two at every rail, he'd nailed it one at every rail, and he'd done that most of the way along the fence. So the potential was there for the palings to curl. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Yeah, and fall off the fence. Isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah, it is. When we turned up to finish the job, we had to put... I think we used 1000 nails on the side of the fence. Like us, you'll be asking, well, what happened? why was the job abandoned? We left phone messages for Clint Norton ` no reply. We emailed his website. We visited his house ` left an urgent message there too. No response. The only place we did find Clint Norton was on his website, touting for work. Hi. I'm Clint from Norton Fencing. Here at Norton Fencing we build pool fencing, timber fencing, retaining walls... Wes has talked to Clint Norton. You did try and get him to come back and finish the job? > You did try and get him to come back and finish the job? > Yeah. I said... Before stepping on his toes and taking over his contract, I gave him the opportunity to finish. And he said to me that, as far as he was concerned, he was finished. And he said to me that, as far as he was concerned, he was finished. What explanation did they give? Um, he said that Joan was a difficult client. He said she changed her mind a lot, she was difficult to deal with, um, which is just not how Joan is at all. She's just a lovely old lady who wanted her fence finished. Good on you, Wes. So, as you saw, we've been trying to reach Clint Norton. This is the only complaint we've received about him, and we'd really like to know what's gone wrong here. Clint, please do get in touch. Although this experience ended well for Joan, it has shaken her faith somewhat. So we asked Wes for a couple of tips on how to avoid getting caught out like Joan did. I wouldn't trust anyone again. You know, I trusted him, and this is what he's done. Joan was let down by a tradie. How could she have better protected herself? Let's start with don't pay all the money up front. You build a house, you don't pay the money up front. You pay it in progress steps. Same in... in a small project like a fence. He asked for the balance of the money before the fence was complete. That's just not the proper practice. You just don't do it. So pay a smaller amount as a deposit, more as the work progresses. These can be tied to a date. Importantly, hold back some money to pay out on completion. Or try and find a company like Wes'. We don't ask for any money up front. It's... It's money on completion. We don't ask for any money up front. It's... It's money on completion. How often do you get burnt? > Uh, we get burnt every now and again, but that's not the next client's problem. The previous client, you can't take that on the next client. Wes also reckons getting references about the tradie's work is crucial. Hello, woofer dog! Check out websites like Builderscrack, or google the tradie's name ` see what comes up. Other potential customers, they go on those websites. They'll google us, Builderscrack and NoCowboys. They'll see those reviews that have been left for us. And that's a good way to find out who to use. Irene posted a glowing reference for ASAP. To think, you know, they were doing it and not being paid for it. They're fantastic. They work... < Amazing? < Amazing? Simply amazing. And, Irene, we think you are also simply amazing as a friend and a neighbour. Thanks again to Wes Cooper and the guys from ASAP Contracting; also the electricians who did the work on Joan's gate. Also, I mean, Wes got involved in this without us. There was no publicity at all in it for him. We have just followed this story after it all happened. So incredible credit to Wes and his team. What a wonderful, human, kind-spirited thing to do. Gives you the warm fuzzies. Gives you the warm fuzzies. It does. It really does. After the break ` Do you think he should have seen you? Do you think he should have seen you? He should have. you reverse, you crash, you are at fault. Do you think Tower is wrong? I think they are. Is her insurance company right or wrong? I didn't believe them, and that's why I started looking around, and then I called Fair Go. (LAUGHS) Welcome back. We've got a feeling this story will affect quite a few of you. Ever pranged the car while reversing? Any admissions? Any admissions? No, no, no. Any admissions? No, no, no. BOTH LAUGH Uh, but did you think it was the other driver's fault? If yes, we're betting your insurance company did not agree. CRUNCH! Bad things can happen in car parks. SMASH! Really bad things. Really astonishingly bad things. By law, you must be careful when pulling out of a car park. Look carefully behind. Don't just use your mirrors. CRASH! CRASH! Oh no! On one level, this story is about a minor car crash. On a way more important level, it's about an insurance company that says if there's a crash while you're reversing, you are automatically at fault. Being that you're reversing, you normally would be found at fault. We think they're wrong. It's not exactly panel beating. I'm trying to hold my bumper so that it doesn't fall when I'm driving. Irene Lal's bumper was ripped off in a low-speed car park crash. So, you were reversing like that, and he came along...? So, you were reversing like that, and he came along...? Yep. How far out of the parking space do you think you were when the crash happened? I was about half or more out. Halfway? Halfway? Yeah. A sensible person would stop and wait for me to finish off. It happened in a busy car park in March. So, the impact was about where I'm standing? So, the impact was about where I'm standing? Yes. Irene was here. The other driver was coming this way. Irene says she got most of the way out, when, bang. So, do you think he should have seen you? So, do you think he should have seen you? He should have. He must have. Bumper torn off, tail light broken, nasty dents ` $1800 worth for her car. And this is the other guy's car on the day. his insurer puts the damage at nearly $3000. And he was trying to kind of bully me into accepting that it was my fault. But you don't think it is. > But you don't think it is. > No, it's not. So, there's clearly an argument as to who's at fault. Irene spoke to her insurer, Tower. Irene has third-party insurance only. She's covered for damage to others, not her own car. My last conversation with them was, 'You're at fault,' meaning I'm at fault because I'm the reversing party. Did you believe it when they told you? Did you believe it when they told you? No. No. I didn't believe them. And that's why I started looking around, and then I called Fair Go. (CHUCKLES) Hi. It's <BLEEP> calling from Tower Insurance. In early April, Tower called Irene. We suggested she get a recording of the call. How did the accident occur? What happened? This is a reconstruction of the recording, with an actor using Tower's exact words. They repeatedly tell Irene she will be to blame. See, if you were reversing and he was coming down the street, regardless of how far you had actually gone out of the street or not, you would be found liable. Majority of the time, if you are reversing, you're normally found to be at fault for an accident, regardless of if he was there or not. Why? Do you think Tower is wrong? Do you think Tower is wrong? I think they are. I thought it was, uh, flawed and unreliable. Traffic lawyer Steve Cullen thinks Tower is wrong too. Don't accept just a blanket statement that you're at fault simply because you're reversing. That's wrong. The legal test is 'reasonable care'. This would probably fail that test. Reasonable care really means the actions that a normal, cautious, careful motorist would do. Uh, it can't be absolute. OK. I'll just place you on hold and see what we can do. One moment. Now, this is my favourite bit. Irene is put on hold for 42 seconds. In those 42 seconds, the Tower person apparently gets second and third opinions. Thanks for holding there. So I just discussed it with a couple of colleagues, and we would... if this claim came to us, we would think you'd be at fault, because you were the reversing party. And I thought, 'That was fast!' She comes, less than a minute, and goes, 'I spoke to several colleagues.' 42 seconds. The absurd proposition that that supports is that we all then have carte blanche to drive around and ram into the rear of reversing vehicles and get the front of our vehicles repaired, because the insurance company's going to hold them liable. It's absurd. Being that you're reversing, you normally will be found at fault. Even though I was already, say, three-quarters out? Yes, correct. That's unfair. Oh, I'm gutted. Yeah, I know. Sorry about that, though. But I'll put notes in the system, and we'll go from there, eh? OK. OK. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Bye. My heart is just sinking. (CHUCKLES) They kind of pass the buck to the other side and go, 'That's it, over with, done with.' Irene's going to the Disputes Tribunal. Maybe she will be found at fault. That's not the point. The point is it looks like Tower is pre-judging Irene and any other reversing motorist. We're not pre-judging. We don't have a policy that all reversing parties are at fault. I just discussed it with a couple of colleagues... But what about those second and third opinions in 42 seconds? Just because you were the reversing party. I can understand how Irene may have come to the conclusion that it was all about the reversing. But she says every case is treated on its own merits, and Tower's people will be reminded of the need to explain that. Tower isn't trying to avoid paying Irene's claim. In fact, if Irene's found not to be at fault, we wouldn't pay anything at all. Now, by the way, I didn't really crash the TVNZ car. Now, by the way, I didn't really crash the TVNZ car. No, that was quite clever. It was quite good acting, wasn't it? It was quite good acting, wasn't it? I was very impressed, Gordon. You've obviously done it before. So, as you heard... Not crash the car, Pippa! Tower insist there's no policy reversing drivers are always at fault. But this is interesting. This is an email from Tower's competitor State. Now, bizarrely, this is about a car park crash about 50m from where Irene had hers. The State customer was reversing into a park. He says another car ducked in behind him, and, bang. According to him, the first thing the other guy said was, 'Sorry, bro. I didn't see you reversing.' But State says the accident... State told us reversing does 'suggest' greater liability in a collision, but there is no rule saying that. And they're sorry if they gave that impression. Now, the road code requires you to take special care when reversing, but we just do not accept you will always be at fault if there is a crash while you're doing so. Now, if your insurer tells you that, we say take it to the Disputes Tribunal. Lots of feedback from you about the new law affecting Trade Me users. Yes, professional sellers will have to declare they are in trade. But what does that mean? You asked us some excellent questions. What about animal breeders selling pets? Are they in trade? Ticket scalpers? People who buy concert and event tickets and on-sell them at a higher price. Hobbyists and artists selling their work online? Or someone who wins a prize? A car, say, in a raffle or competition. We put all of those to the Commerce Commission, and they said... But you're not in trade if you buy a ticket and can't use it and on-sell it at face value. So, that law kicks in next month ` part of a big and long-overdue overhaul of consumer law, as we've already touched on a little bit tonight. as we've already touched on a little bit tonight. Mm. There's also big changes coming for door-to-door sales and telemarketing too. We've done quite a bit on door-to-door this year, including a wee survey a couple of weeks back. Genesis Energy told us they were 'reviewing' door-to-door. But they wouldn't tell us more ` until now. Genesis marketing boss Chris Watney doesn't normally do the door-knocking himself. This is to tell you this is gonna be the last time we knock on your door. This is to tell you this is gonna be the last time we knock on your door. Oh, thank God for that. Genesis is pulling the plug on door-knocking. We know that, um, four out of five customers don't like it. It is still effective, but just not worth the grief. I think it's partly around the inconvenience of being interrupted at tea time. And for some people, also, you know, these darker evenings, people are wary about opening the door. Genesis subsidiary Energy Online will also pull the plug on door-to-door. So, that's the show. But Gordon and I will be on Facebook for the next half-hour to answer your questions. Obviously our programme's all about your problems, your thoughts, so do get in touch. No problem's too small, we always say. We really do want to hear from you. We're on Facebook. Or email us. Write to us. And next week ` two families take on their winter power bills. What do they learn? No under-floor insulation. You've got some very thin ceiling insulation. And how will it help you? That heat pump v light bulb thing ` that was quite a biggie. That's next week. Goodnight.