GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q + A. I'M GREG BOYED WITH MICHAEL PARKIN. TODAY, WHO OWNS OUR WATER? YES, THE GOVERNMENT AND IWI ARE IN TALKS ABOUT MAORI CLAIMS TO FRESHWATER. THE GOVERNMENT'S ALREADY RECOGNISED THAT SOME IWI MAY HAVE RIGHTS, BUT JOHN KEY'S ALSO MADE HIS VIEW CLEAR THAT NO ONE CAN 'OWN' THE WATER. IS THERE ENOUGH OF THIS PRECIOUS RESOURCE FOR ALL? AND WHAT DO IWI REALLY WANT FROM THESE TALKS? I'LL BE TALKING TO MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER TE URUROA FLAVELL. I ALSO HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE FORCE, LIEUTENANT-GENERAL TIM KEATING. WE TALK ABOUT ANZAC DAY AND THE IRAQ MISSION. I DON'T THINK THERE'S SECRECY AROUND IT. I THINK WE'VE BEEN QUITE OPEN. AND STAYING WITH ANZAC DAY, I SPEAK TO AN HISTORIAN WHO SAYS WE ARE IGNORING ANOTHER PART OF OUR WAR HISTORY. WHILE OUR THOUGHTS TURN TO THE CENTENARY OF GALLIPOLI, DR VINCENT O'MALLEY SAYS THE NZ WARS ALSO HAD A PROFOUND INFLUENCE ON DEFINING NZ AND WHAT WE WOULD BECOME. WE'LL ANALYSE ALL THE ISSUES WITH OUR PANEL ` LIEUTENANT COLONEL SIR WIRA GARDINER, NATIONAL PARTY MEMBER; JOSIE PAGANI, A PUBLIC AFFAIRS CONSULTANT; AND POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. WATER RIGHTS HAVE BEEN BACK IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK. THE GOVERNMENT'S REJECTED AN IWI PROPOSAL TO GET RID OF WATER CONSENTS AND GIVE IWI PERMANENT RIGHTS THAT COULD BE TRADED. THE MAORI PARTY IS CLOSELY INVOLVED IN THE ONGOING TALKS. ITS CO-LEADER TE URUROA FLAVELL JOINS ME NOW. John key says no one can own the water. DOES your party agree with that? He probably has a different view to the Waitangi tribunal. Is the water trading right something you support? That's a decision for the iwi to make. The iwi are in the discussion right now. The options for tradeable rights are on the agenda. We're looking at the long-term sustainability issue, issues do with use and management long-term. That point they have raised has been rejected by John Key. We hope to leave that door open. I would hope that our input remains open. How involved are you in this discussion? The Maori Party has been very strong In advocacy around the issues surrounding water. We developed the framework which sets out the values that allows us to consider. We also looking at securing money in terms of clearing up the water. What allocation do you think Maori are entitled to? That is debate for iwi. My feeling about that doesn't matter in this debate. I'm not a treaty partner. That is between the crown and the iwi. Water is something that we treasure. It talks about the relationship that I am the river, it is a strong spiritual connection our people have. What is your opinion on this the allocation of water to Maori? That is discussion to be had between government and iwi. That is the fact. The management of water, protection of water are issues to be sorted between iwi and Crown as partners. As a politician, my job is to open doors to those discussions. If iwi gets those rights, what is our goal? Do they want to profit? That is not where people want to be. We want to have our right to recognize first. Secondly we want to be involved in the management and the sustainability of resource for New Zealand the future. The moment you can make profit, there'll be costs involving those rights. Federated Farmers says any portion given to Maori it creates another grievance. Then we go back to the table. That is why iwi has taken a proactive stance going around the country. It is a very valid question. What happens if they miss out? The Maori have felt they have been left of far too long. The notion that Maori will come and take away someone else's rights is silly. We want to take a considered approach to management, sustainability and use. We will have to go on a basis of recognition. Can you understand the National government's reluctance? There is an element of common sense. These issues become so serious that we close the doors on these discussions, there will be a kickback from the Maori communities. I think we are a lot closer to finding solutions. This is why the RMA is so important. I think there's a willingness keep the doors open and keep the discussions going. I certainly get that feeling from iwi. Is this an issue the Maori Party could possibly walk away from? We are not about to walk away until we have given a considered opinion on what's going on. It remains to be seen, but I can confident say there's a fierce determination on the part of iwi to get this going. The issue is so important that it is better to keep that issue going. You mentioned the race issue. Some people are going to believe them. And that is one of the big problems. We're looking long into the future, not just the resource here for the now. I think the fair-minded New Zealanders will understand the approach has been taken by iwi. Were talking to historian later in the program about the New Zealand wars. You were the only Mp who turned up to the centenary commemorations last year. The iwi made it clear history sitting on our back doorstep. There's a huge amount of history than most people don't know about. I would be a huge advocate for the country to commemorate the Those battles in the future. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQandA YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF; EACH TEXT COSTS 50 CENTS. WE'LL BRING IN THE PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. AND LATER ` THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE FORCE, LIEUTENANT-GENERAL TIM KEATING ON IRAQ AND ANZAC DAY. WOULD NZERS HEED THE CALL TODAY AND GO OFF AND FIGHT AND DIE IN THOSE SAME NUMBERS AS WE SAW IN THOSE BATTLES THAT YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED? LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL, POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS FROM OTAGO UNIVERSITY, FORMER LABOUR PARTY CANDIDATE AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS CONSULTANT JOSIE PAGANI AND FORMER CEO OF MAORI AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL PARTY MEMBER, LIEUTENANT COLONEL SIR WIRA GARDINER. Bryce, water rights. Are we talking about better rights for for Maori? It is a lot more complicated than that. It should be the people that benefit. It is going to be a very heightened debate. The Waikato river, for example, passes through a long way. How are they going to resolve this issue? The government and Maori will have to agree on an overarching principle. This is the issue, the status quo that no one owns the water but many people are making money out of it. Rivers and lakes are different from the foreshore and seabed issue. Water will not be used to be sold to anybody else. The argument is not about who should have it. It is about how to share this resource to better develop the economy. With water, we have an inconsistent, ad hoc system. You swim in it for free but have to pay to drink it. It is good that we having this debate. For many years, freshwater has been mismanaged by local councils. There's been some legal, beautiful finding that if no one owns the water, you get away from the ownership debate. Farmers make money from this. Bottled water manufacturers are also involved. Our dairy is our most profitable part of our economy. So presumably Federated farmers could pay affordable rental system. I think we are going to see a more marketization. We weill see compromised situation in the end. Nature owns the water. Bottom line is no government will concede ownership to Maori or anybody. The moment that is accepted, you move into the grounds of trade Rights and right to use. Disadvantaged New Zealanders. Is this a reasonable point? There's a lot of heat in this. John key as the Master of compromise. No one knows the water, but everyone wants a slice of it. John key will come up with A compromise. But the minister hasn't spoken up on this issue. I think this displays the irrelevancy of the Maori Party. I don't think the Maori Party will walk away. They're been consistent on that. It does beg the question of the influence of the Maori Party. On these issue of water rights for New Zealanders, there is a level of maturation about these things. The people leading the iwi leadership movement, they've been around for 30 years. That matured on the matters of politics of the time. They won't do anything jeopardize the rights for New Zealand people. Do you think people of New Zealand be jaded off to this issue of water rights? We have been here before. I'm sure John key might be viewing this as something like musical chairs. It's been very good for the country. These settlements are good for us. The quota system works for right and the left, the the community good. THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE FORCE IS NEXT. WE TALK ABOUT THE IRAQ MISSION AND THE IMPORTANCE OF ANZAC DAY. AND LATER ` THIS WEEK WE WILL REMEMBER THE SACRIFICES MADE AT GALLIPOLLI AND IN OTHER FOREIGN WARS. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BATTLES ON OUR OWN SOIL? WHY DON'T THEY GET THE SAME ATTENTION? HISTORIAN VINCENT O'MALLEY IS NEXT. THE GOVERNMENT'S COME UNDER FIRE THIS WEEK FOR A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AROUND THE DEPLOYMENT OF NZ TROOPS TO IRAQ. THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT HAS RELEASED DETAILS ABOUT THEIR TROOPS, BUT OURS IS KEEPING INFORMATION TO A MINIMUM. I SPOKE TO THE CHIEF OF OUR DEFENCE FORCE, LIEUTENANT GENERAL TIM KEATING, AND ASKED ABOUT THAT SECRECY AND THE MISSION IN GENERAL. HE'S ON HIS WAY TO GALLIPOLI THIS WEEK, SO I BEGAN MY INTERVIEW BY ASKING WHAT ANZAC DAY MEANS TO HIM. ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, THERE'S A FAMILY HISTORY, A GRANDFATHER, IN FACT, TWO GRANDFATHERS WHO FOUGHT IN WWI AND PARENTS WHO WERE IN WWII. AND I SUPPOSE I FOLLOWED THAT FAMILY TRADITION THROUGH TODAY. ON A STEWARDSHIP ROLE, IN MY ROLE AS CDF, IT'S THE ROLE TO COMMEMORATE ALL THOSE SERVICE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERVED NZ IN THE PAST, BUT ALSO TO REMIND NZ, IF YOU LIKE, THAT WE STILL HAVE MANY HUNDREDS OF NZERS SERVING IN THE NAME OF GOOD AROUND THE WORLD TODAY, SO THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT. BUT I THINK ANZAC DAY, WE HAVE TO SORT COMMEMORATE, I SUPPOSE. THERE'S THE COMMEMORATION ELEMENT OF THOSE WHO HAVE MADE THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, GIVEN THEIR LIVES IN THE NAME OF THE COUNTRY, AND AS WELL AS THE OTHER SORT OF SUFFERING FROM FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, LOSING LOVED ONES, SO, YEAH, IT'S MULTIDIMENSIONAL FOR ME. GIVEN THAT IT WAS UNSUCCESSFUL, IT WAS SUCH A HUGE LOSS OF LIFE, WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO THIS COUNTRY? WELL, I THINK FOR THE COUNTRY, IT WAS A COMING OF AGE OF THE COUNTRY. IT WAS THE FIRST MAJOR CAMPAIGN FOR NZ IN WWI, AND AS HISTORY RECORDS, IT WAS A DISASTER, BUT IT WAS ALSO A TRIUMPH OF SPIRIT. IT WAS A TRIUMPH TO OVERCOME INCREDIBLE ODDS AND, IF YOU LIKE, THE WITHDRAWAL ITSELF, WITH AN IRONY, WAS A SUCCESS. BUT NZ AS A LEARNING NATION SORT OF TOOK THAT, AND THERE WERE MANY LONG YEARS OF WAR, WHICH WERE THE CAMPAIGNS IN PALESTINE AND EUROPE AFTER THAT. IT WAS A SIGNIFICANT FIRST STEP FOR THIS NATION. DO YOU THINK IT'S WHEN WE BECAME A NATION? WELL, THERE'S A LOT OF DEBATE ABOUT THAT. PERSONALLY, PERSONALLY, NO. IT SHAPED AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR CHARACTER AS A NATION. I THINK AS A NATION WE SORT OF STOOD UP FOR THE FIRST TIME ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE AGAINST AN EVIL OF THE TIMES, SO IT CERTAINLY WAS A TIME WE UNITED AS A NATION. AND ONE COULD HAVE SAID UP UNTIL THAT POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT DISTRICTS ARE IMPORTANT AND DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, BUT WE UNITED AS A COUNTRY. 10% OF THE POPULATION DEPLOYED OVERSEAS; EVERYBODY WAS AFFECTED. EVERYBODY WAS PART OF THE WAR EFFORT, SO IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TIME THE NATION THOUGHT OF ITSELF AS A TRUE NATION. YOU TALK ABOUT JUST HOW MANY WERE INVOLVED. LATER IN THE PROGRAMME, WE'RE TALKING TO A HISTORIAN ABOUT THE NZ WARS OF THE 1860S AND THE HUGE IMPACT THAT THEY HAVE. WE HAVE A FIXATION PARTICULARLY ON WWI CAMPAIGNS. ARE WE TOO FOCUSED ON GALLIPOLI AND NOT THE BATTLES THAT PRECEDED IT? OH, I THINK THE BATTLES THAT PRECEDE IT AND ALSO FOLLOWED IT, AND THIS IS WHERE I AM RELUCTANT TO SAY THIS WAS THE DEFINING MOMENT OF OUR NATION. IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS, ONE OF THOSE CHAPTERS IN OUR NATION, AND RIGHTFULLY HAS A VERY SPECIAL PLACE FOR NZERS. BUT THROUGHOUT THIS WWI COMMEMORATION PERIOD, IN 2016 WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THE SOMME, THE FOLLY OF THE SOMME, THE HUGE TRAGEDY, THE GRIND OF THE SOMME; 17 PASSCHENDAELE IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US; 18 THE END OF THE WAR AND THE LOOK TOWARDS, AND UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS PROMISED TO BE A BRIGHT FUTURE WORLD PEACE. WOULD NZERS HEED THE CALL TODAY AND GO OFF AND FIGHT AND DIE IN THOSE SAME NUMBERS AS WE SAW IN THOSE BATTLES THAT YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED? I'M NOT SURE ABOUT SAME NUMBERS, BUT WHAT I'D LIKE TO SAY IS THOSE NZ SERVICE PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE TO SERVE TODAY, AND I HAVE PEOPLE ARE KNOCKING DOWN THE DOORS TO BECOME PART OF THE THREE SERVICES. MY RECRUITING IS VERY VERY HIGH. THERE'S A LONG WAITING LIST. MANY YOUNG NZERS THAT I SPEAK TO WHO WANT TO BE PART OF THE DEFENCE FORCE WANT TO BE PART OF A NZ OR A VOCATION PART OF NZ THAT MAKES THE WORLD` THAT MAKES NZ, THE REGION, THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE. AND THERE'S A REAL SINCERITY YOU GET THIS FROM YOUNG 18 AND 19-YEAR-OLDS JOINING THE SERVICE, 'I WANT A JOB WHERE I MAKE A DIFFERENCE. 'I THINK THE WORLD NEEDS US,' AND THAT'S A STRONG SENTIMENT I GET, AND MANY OF THEM SERVE ALL AROUND THE WORLD. WHY DO YOU THINK IT WOULD NOT BE IN THOSE SAME NUMBERS? HAVE WE BECOME A RISK-AVERSE NATION? I DON'T THINK THERE IS A CALL FOR THAT AT THE MOMENT. ONE WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THE DAYS OF MASS MOBILISATION OF A NATION ARE PAST. ONE WOULD LIKE TO THINK. ONE WOULD LIKE TO BE OPTIMISTIC. WE SAW THAT IN AFGHANISTAN WITH THE LIKES OF THE US. THEY LOST THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS THERE, DIDN'T THEY? WE WEREN'T CHARGING OUT TO THE FRONT LINE. WHY IS THAT THESE DAYS? WELL, I THINK WE HAVE BEEN AT FRONT LINE SERVICE WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE. WHEN THERE'S A NEED TO FIGHT, NZERS WOULD FIGHT, BUT IN MANY OF OUR MISSIONS AROUND THE WORLD, WE ENABLE HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS, LIKE WE HAVE STILL A LARGE CONTINGENT IN VANUATU. WE HAVE ENABLED HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS IN AFGHANISTAN, AS WELL AS WHERE NECESSARY BEEN AT THE FRONT EDGE OF THE FIGHT IN THE EARLY DAYS WITH THE EARLY SAS DEPLOYMENTS. IF WE CAN LOOK AT THE MODERN DAY ANZAC RELATIONSHIP, WHAT SORT OF TRAINING WERE THE KIWIS WHO WENT TO AUSTRALIA AHEAD OF THE IRAQ DEPLOYMENT? WHAT SORT OF WORK WERE THEY DOING? WHAT SORT OF TRAINING WERE THEY DOING OVER THERE? VERY MUCH RELATED TO THE MISSION AND THE MISSION IS TO TRAIN IRAQIS AND TRAIN THE IRAQI ARMY, AND THE NZ DEFENCE FORCE, WE ARE VERY GOOD TRAINERS. WE HAVE A HISTORY OF IT THROUGHOUT, YOU KNOW, THE BUILD-UP OF THE NATIONS IN SOUTH-EAST ASIA SINGAPORE, MALAYSIA. NZ WAS VERY MUCH AN EARLY PARTNER WITH THOSE GROWING NATIONS AND THROUGHOUT THE PACIFIC, WE'VE TRAINED THE FORCES. WE HAVE ENABLED FORCES, NOT ONLY IN MILITARY SKILLS BUT TO BE GOOD MILITARIES, AND WE ADD THAT SORT OF ADDED VALUE. WE ARE A VALUES-DRIVEN DEFENCE FORCE AS WELL, SO NOT ONLY ARE WE IMPARTING THE SORT OF FRONT-END MILITARY SKILLS BUT WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE TO USE THEM. AND IN OUR BUSINESS, YOU'VE GOT TO BE IMPARTING THAT KNOWLEDGE IN THE VALUE OF THE VALUES FRAMEWORK. WAS THE TRAINING IN AUSTRALIA SUCCESSFUL? BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN SOME OF THE KIWIS GOT THERE, THEY FOUND THE AUSTRALIANS WEREN'T READY FOR COMBINED TRAINING, AND THEY WERE LEFT FEELING A BIT SIDELINED. WAS THAT THE CASE? NO, NO, I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE AT ALL. THE TWO NATIONS HAVE COME TOGETHER IN A GREAT PARTNERSHIP. WE WORKED ALONGSIDE AUSTRALIANS, IN FACT, EVEN BEFORE ANZAC, THROUGH THE BOER WAR, NZERS AND AUSTRALIANS HAVE SERVED SIDE-BY-SIDE. WE BRING DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS TOWARDS THE TEAM. FORWARDS AND BACKS I COULD GET METAPHORIC HERE, BUT, NO, WE NEVER JUDGE EACH OTHER. WELL, WE DO. WE DO IN A SENSE JUDGE EACH OTHER, BUT IT DRIVES US TO BE BETTER. IT'S LIKE, I SUPPOSE I'LL CONTINUE THE METAPHOR, THE ALL BLACKS AND THE WALLABIES. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, BUT THAT FIERCE COMPETITION BETWEEN THE TWO DRIVES A STRONG TEAM, AND WE ARE A STRONG TEAM GOING INTO THIS OPERATION. SO DID IT WORK, THAT TRAINING, THOUGH? WAS THERE`? THAT TRAINING WAS HUGELY SUCCESSFUL, AND WE TOOK THE BEST CHARACTERISTICS OF BOTH THE AUSTRALIANS AND NZERS, AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL APPLICATION OF THAT TRAINING TEAM WITH THE IRAQIS. IN IRAQ, ONCE ON THE GROUND, I'M INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT ROLE WILL NZ'S FEMALE SOLDIERS PLAY? WILL THEY BE THERE DOING THE TRAINING WITH THE IRAQI SOLDIERS? I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A MIXED ELEMENT TO ALL THE ROLES THAT PEOPLE ARE UNDERTAKING UP THERE. OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE CULTURAL SENSITIVITIES, BUT WE'VE DEALT WITH THOSE IN AFGHANISTAN. AND SOMETIMES IT'S THE EXPERIENCE AND THE EXPOSURE TO THE NZ WAY., WHEN WE WERE IN AFGHANISTAN THERE WAS GREAT RISK WE THOUGHT EARLY OF EXPOSING OUR WOMEN, OUR SERVICEWOMEN, TO THE AFGHANI POPULATION IN THE WAY THEY DO. BUT, LOOK, THAT BECAME A MYTH. BUT WILL YOU HAVE TO KEEP THOSE WOMEN BACK FROM THOSE REALLY POINTY-END ROLES? NO, THAT'S NOT THE INTENT HERE AT ALL. YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE'LL BE CULTURALLY SENSITIVE, AS WE WERE IN AFGHANISTAN, AND WILL INTRODUCE ALL PEOPLE IN THE TEAM. BUT NZ THIS IS WHERE I TALK ABOUT WE DON'T ONLY TEACH MILITARY SKILLS, BUT WE TEACH THE WAY THAT A HOMOGENOUS SOCIETY, A DEFENCE FORCE LIKE OURS, WHICH IS TRULY REPRESENTATIVE OF NZ GENDER-WISE, ETHNICITY-WISE, AN EGALITARIAN SOCIETY, HOW IT WORKS. WHY DO WE SEEM TO BE GETTING SO MUCH OF THE NEWS ABOUT THE COMINGS AND GOINGS OF THE NZ TROOPS FROM THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT? WHY IS JOHN KEY SAYING THAT YOU'VE ASKED HIM TO KEEP SPECIFIC DETAILS A SECRET, OUT OF THE MEDIA? WELL, I THINK ONE HAS TO BE VERY CAREFUL HERE. I'M NOT GOING TO ANSWER ON BEHALF OF THE AUSTRALIANS. SO THE NZERS AND THE GOVERNMENT WORK ON MY ADVICE, SO I GIVE THEM ADVICE AROUND MATTERS OF MILITARY SECURITY, GIVEN THE NZ CONTEXT. THE AUSTRALIAN CDF, MY COUNTERPART, MARK BINSKIN, WILL ALSO DO THAT ON THE AUSTRALIAN POLITICAL SIDE. AND I'VE GIVEN ADVICE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF THE APPROPRIATENESS OF THE TYPE OF ANNOUNCEMENTS WE SHOULD BE MAKING AROUND THE NZ DEPLOYMENT. WE ARE DETERMINED TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING UP THERE, BUT I WILL NOT COMPROMISE AND I DON'T EXPECT THE NZ PUBLIC AND CERTAINLY NOT THE SERVICE PEOPLE WHO I'M DEEMED TO BE THE STEWARD OF THEIR CARE, WILL NOT COMPROMISE THEIR SECURITY. I WILL ALWAYS ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION IF I THINK IT ENHANCES THE RISK TO THOSE SERVICE PEOPLE I'M DEPLOYING. NOTWITHSTANDING THAT, I'M DETERMINED, AS IS THE GOVERNMENT, TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING THERE AND THE RESULTS WE AIM TO ACHIEVE. HAVE YOU BEEN MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN YOUR AUSTRALIAN COUNTERPART? I THINK WE HAVE A DIFFERENT FRAME OF LOOKING AT IT, AND, AGAIN, I DON'T THINK ONE IS MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN THE OTHER, BUT I'M WORKING IN A NZ CONTEXT HERE. SO WHEN WILL NZ TROOPS, THE ADVANCE PARTY, WHEN WILL THEY LEAVE FOR IRAQ? WHAT I'LL DO IS I'LL, ALONG WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND GIVE THE GOVERNMENT ADVICE, WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE TO SAY THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND AND WE'RE STARTING TO FULFIL OUR MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WILL BE NOW? I CERTAINLY DO, ALTHOUGH THERE'S STILL SOME UNCERTAINTY ABOUT FLIGHTS AND DATES AND CONDITIONS, SO WE KNOW THE ROUGH TIMELINE, IF YOU LIKE, BUT IT ISN'T DETERMINED DOWN TO THE DAY AND THE HOUR. AND WHETHER THAT'S INFORMATION THAT SHOULD BE RELEASED, I'LL DETERMINE AT THE TIME, AND I'LL ADVISE THE GOVERNMENT, AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL IT'S THEIR DECISION TO TAKE THAT ADVICE OR OTHERWISE. WILL IT BE HARD TO BUILD A LEVEL OF PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THIS MISSION, GIVEN THE SECRECY AROUND IT? I DON'T THINK THERE'S SECRECY AROUND IT. I THINK WE'VE BEEN QUITE OPEN. WELL, I'VE BEEN QUITE OPEN, AND SO HAS THE GOVERNMENT ABOUT WHAT WE'RE THERE FOR. AND AS THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID, A NINE-MONTH REVIEW AND HE'S COMMITTED TO A TWO-YEAR DEPLOYMENT. WE'VE TOLD THE PUBLIC WHAT THIS MISSION IS ABOUT, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO WITH THIS MISSION. I CAN'T SEE THE SECRECY. DEPLOYMENT DATES I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND THE SENSITIVITIES AROUND GETTING FORCES INTO A COUNTRY LIKE IRAQ, AND IS THAT A MATTER FOR THE PUBLIC? I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK THEY NEED TO KNOW WE'RE THERE AND WHAT WE'RE DOING THERE, AND I THINK WE'RE BEING QUITE OPEN ABOUT THAT. THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE FORCE IS NEXT. AND LATER THIS WEEK WE WILL REMEMBER THE SACRIFICES MADE AT GALLIPOLI AND IN OTHER FOREIGN WARS. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BATTLES ON OUR OWN SOIL? WHY DON'T THEY GET THE SAME ATTENTION? HISTORIAN VINCENT O'MALLEY IS NEXT. WHEN THE 150TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE BATTLE OF RANGIRIRI WAS MARKED IN NOVEMBER 2013, ONLY ONE MP TURNED UP TO THE CEREMONY. THAT WAS TE URUROA FLAVELL, WHO WE HEARD FROM EARLIER IN THE PROGRAMME. RANGIRIRI IS WHERE THE MOST DECISIVE BATTLE FOR WAIKATO WAS FOUGHT. IT WAS A FIERCE AND BLOODY, WITH BIG LOSSES ON BOTH SIDES. THE MAORI KINGITANGA MOVEMENT WAS CRUSHED, WHICH LED TO THE REGION BEING SETTLED BY THE BRITISH. IT'S THESE BATTLES THAT HISTORIAN DR VINCENT O'MALLEY SAYS WE SHOULD ALSO COMMEMORATE, AS WE LOOK TO REMEMBER THOSE WHO DIED AT GALLIPOLI NEXT WEEKEND. DR O'MALLEY JOINS ME NOW. We heard the Chief of defence's thoughts on how important the little ears. Gallipoli is incredibly significant. In terms of the notion that it was the birth of a nation I don't think that can be sustained. We will automatically part of the war in 1914 because of Britain's declaration of war against Germany we went independent until 1947 let's talk about the land wars. During the world wars we were part of an international effort With the land wars it was a Civil War it perhaps was the proudest moment in New Zealand history it had aspects of the Civil War yes is that some of the reason we have the cultural amnesia we have? I think so. Referring back to World War I it is seen as a source of national pride politicians love to be seen at Gallipoli but not at significant New Zealand war memorials it is seen as something that's divisive that doesn't necessarily need to be the case my argument hereis that a mature nation needs to own its history, warts and all there has to be some education. Education is incredibly significant history as a discipline is only available to school students from year 11 onwards not many chose to study history. Schools themselves have a choice as to what they teach you have a situation where about 90% of students are leaving school without a knowledge of New Zealand history you talk about war heroes.We probably haven't learnt the names of New Zealand war heroes yes. Tanihara was a remarkable individual who desperately strove to avoid war he was truly bicultural, probably a century ahead of his time he died within a couple of years of the Waikato war of a broken heart over what happened John Key said a national day to commemorate the New Zealand Wars is unlikely. Why do you think he is taking that stand? The New Zealand Wars make a lot of people feel awkward there is not a lot of mileage in supporting this concept I think we have to be bigger than that as a nation let's not be selective about the history we remember with World War I,we have Passchendaele, at Gallipoli, Battle of the Somme wwith the New Zealand was those things are not as significant. Is the only way education? We need to protect and promote the actual sites. One of the reasons I was encouraged to speak out I too would most of the battle site at Waikato and I was amazed how little protection and recognition they had you could drive right by and not even be a weird there was a site of major historical significance right gear in the case of one of the most significant battles the road goes right through the middle the rest of it as private farmland on the 50th anniversary of that battle the government gave serious attention to public ownership of that land so a fitting memorial could be established the main reason that didn't go a head is because World War I broke out I think it is time to revisit ideas like that let's have more protection for these sites there are not a lot of specifics either.The dates and locations are not always known it's quite all-encompassing and to get it down to specifics is going to be tough isn't it? Yes, it would be. There are any numbers of options in terms of days that could be selected that would be a matter for Iwi and the Crown to negotiate there is also an element of a few star revisiting this, it is going to reopen old wounds with land wars. is that if you comment? This doesn't require guilt or shame. It requires New Zealand as a nation to honestly face up to its history what are you going to say to John Key. This is as important a part of our history as Gallipoli, as the Somme, as Passchendaele? There is an argument that the Waikato war was more influential in terms of the long-term history of New Zealand one of the key reasons that Auckland today is the dominant city in New Zealand and has more people than the South island is directly a result of the Waikato war something else not a lot of people realise is that Maori casualty rates in the Waikato war were probably higher on the basis of per capita compared with New Zealand's war losses in World War I. These were catastrophic losses for the Iwi concerned no one is going to know that except you.How do you get that out there? It comes back to education. Not just in schools but in other places. Historians such as myself need to take time to promote and remember these events. What is the net result if we don't do this and basically continue to ignore what happened in our own yard? It is a fundamental part of the New Zealand story. I think my only focusing on World War I we are raising this really important history that speaks to who we are as a nation and we'll we have come from you are not saying it is more important than Gallipoli but it should be given the same degree of respect. The first it has to be education though? Yes.It is a question of making resources available in an access above format for schools you've got to have heroes, battlegrounds. You have to have it inaccessible. You have to speak to why this matters. THE PANEL'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK. PLUS, WE HAVE SOME OF YOUR FEEDBACK. WE'VE HAD LOTS OF FEEDBACK THIS MORNING. LET'S BRING IN THE PANEL, AND MICHAEL IS WITH US TOO. Vincent O'Malley he is going to have his work cut out for him with Gallipoli this year? There are so many millions of dollars being put into this commemoration year and nothing into the New Zealand Wars. It does make some sense. There is a question of whether we have too much memorialisation of war as it is. I would never wear a poppy. We certainly seem to have reached a level where we have absurd levels of commemoration I think it has become quite insidious and a danger that we have assembled that actually promotes militarism and nationalism I disagree with that profoundly. If you look at the discussion of what forged our nation, the land wars forged our nation. In my family we had people who fought in the land wars and Gallipoli. The idea that it is one or the other is wrong. It was a disaster but our nation learned from that. You do not send troops to war under the command of another country my uncles, grandparents died in these wars and soldiers go to serveanimation they don't go willingly. They die on behalf of the nation. I think we should commemorate them There is a lot of emphasis placed on this year, next year showed more emphasis be placed on the land wars? I don't think it is an either or in my university in England I knew more about the war between Charles and the parliamentarians then I did about wars where I came from the issue is how we resolve it. I don't think it is necessarily education you have to tie the commemoration sites to something much more practical and match the development of those sites to tourism that is absolutely right.I went to the tepapa exhibition pulled Gallipoli it struck me that it was only 50 years from the end of the land wars to the first Maori Battalion going after the First World War it has to start with education. You can't expect kids to turn up to the equivalent of a dawn ceremonial. They have to do know it first they had to feel it. There has to be a body of literature. They have to be writers writing about these things when you buy books and read about these things the general consciousness spreads throughout the nation I want to bring you an on this. Listen to your interview with Tim, I'm not sure about the line of keeping our troops safe and keeping it secret I don't think Isis are in a case saying this is the only way we know they are coming I don't think anyone is asking the government or the general which flight they are getting into Baghdad what they are asking is when are they going in when they are getting on the plane I have seen troops go to Afghanistan many times. The Australians know when they are leaving. It is fair enough to know when they are leaving it is because it is divisive. When I was a soldier last century, it was Libya we had an enemy with tanks and artillery over here and we advance towards him they had tanks and bombs on the sides of the road with the rise in terror we have to think of our families I think the same protectionwe should give to our soldiers I think the issue here is the mission hasn't been clearly defined they are going to train troops back to what end John Key hasn't made the case for military intervention. That doesn't mean there isn't one other borders going to break up? Are we going to prevent crimes against humanity? Which personally I support I think he hasn't made the case, and if you don't make the case, it is wrong to think we would go out after two years. The two years coincides with the nextgeneral election John Key has been very clear about that from the get go you have to be because you don't come into this going may be waking dollar little longer Tony Abbott left the door open this week. It has to be for peace not just military intervention I think surely the least transparent, or no one really knows why we are going all when all the legal situation the colonel has been a spin doctor and been vague it's not just him being Baig John Key couldn't remember the leader of Isis the mission can't be to take out Isis or he would know his name we don't know when the troops are dying because of security, surely you are going to put troops in harms way putting them in a country with Isis it sounds a little fanciful that we can't know the flight we need to know what we can hope to achieve this New Zealanders. We are very good at long-term development. You don't stop and Isis be heeding with aid you need a military presence after that what are we going to make sure Iraq's, Iran, Syria what is happening with the Borders, what does it look like those are the debates we should be having strip away the military, we are part of the Americans, the French, the Canadians it is part of the price we have to pay to participate in the 21st-century world we're not unconnected from the world. Our trade relies on it we wouldn't be in the United Nations otherwise it is the same reasons we went to Gallipoli. They are milking the Anzac celebrationsto put the case for intervention in another country we didn't intervene in Syria and there are 220,000 people and counting dead since we didn't intervene you can't say the opposite of intervention is peace there was a genocide related to our invasion. The government is not talking about that now the fundamental issue is we are focusing on what we were involved in we participated in an operation which was disastrous but as a consequence we came out of that with a very close relationship with the Australians which is developed today in 1944 when we were on the Security Council before, we made the case of intervening in Rwanda to stop the genocide we have a noble and moral tradition of intervening Tony Abbott is here tonight so we will hear more about this. John Key is off to Gallipoli, going to a peace summit, going to Saudi Arabia, who have their own issues it's surprising to see Tony Abbott back at all a lot of people are surprised. He came back at all that's why he was smiling so much is nothing wrong with them. Or cynicism WAKA HUIA IS NEXT WITH A STORY ABOUT ONE OF MAORIDOM'S FINEST WEAVERS, A BLOKE WHO'S DEFYING CONVENTION. REMEMBER Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. WE'RE BACK AT OUR USUAL TIME NEXT WEEK. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY AMY PARK AND ASHLEE SCHOLEFIELD. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015