GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED WITH POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN. MORNING, GREG. AND TODAY, AIR TRAVEL IS A BOOMING BUSINESS, BUT WITH A BIG CARBON FOOTPRINT. AIR NZ'S HERE TO TELL US ABOUT ITS NEW PLAN FOR SUSTAINABILITY, AND ONE OF ITS ADVISORS IS TOP UK SUSTAINABILITY EXPERT SIR JONATHAN PORRITT. WE'LL ASK HIM ABOUT THE FUTURE OF FLIGHT. IS IT A LUXURY IN A CARBON-CONSTRAINED WORLD? THE RESERVE BANK CUT THE OCR AGAIN THIS WEEK. IN A SLOWING-ECONOMY, IS THE BANK DOING ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING FOR THE GOVERNMENT AS LABOUR CLAIMS? FINANCE SPOKESPERSON GRANT ROBERTSON TELLS WHY HE THINKS BILL ENGLISH NEEDS TO STEP UP. AND KIM SAVAGE REPORTS FROM HAWKE'S BAY, WHERE A REFERENDUM ON MERGING ITS FIVE COUNCILS IS GETTING HEATED. To expect a campaign to get nasty? People look the other way. WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE ISSUES ` PLUS UK LEADER JEREMY CORBYN'S EMPHATIC VICTORY ` WITH OUR PANEL, MICHAEL BARNETT FROM THE AUCKLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE AND TAX LECTURER DR DEBORAH RUSSELL, AND POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. THIS WEEK, AIR NZ WILL LAUNCH ITS NEW SUSTAINABILITY FRAMEWORK. AND IT'S PULLED IN SOME BIG NAMES TO HELP. SIR JONATHAN PORRITT IS ONE OF THE UK'S BEST KNOWN ENVIRONMENTAL CAMPAIGNERS AND THE CO-FOUNDER OF A CHARITY THAT WORKS WITH NGOS AND CORPORATES TO CREATE BUSINESSES THAT ARE BETTER FOR THE WORLD ` ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY AND ENVIRONMENTALLY. SIR JONATHAN AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON JOIN ME NOW. The sustainability framework ` it's not a word we have heardfor a while. I think in New Zealand it's understood as environmentalism. It's bigger and broader than that.. is it something you had to have the luxury of being a successful business to do? Absolutely not. I look at the world and I see this unprecedented challenges. As a good business leader, you want to talk about sustainability in how your business daysduring an compelling. How does an airline companies they sustainable when you are burning carbon? There's a lot we can do. We can do a lot socially with our own people. Certainly with the communities. Environmentally, is a lot we can do around carbon. We are in a world where people are choosing jet travel. It's very good for the world economically and socially. 36 million flights in the year this year. We consume about 2 to 4% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. There's a lot we can do around more fuel-efficient aircraft. Sir Jonathan, why have you got involved with Air New Zealand? They do burn carbon. The truth is, aviation is a sector that is right in the spotlight right now. At a critical sector. Able to appreciate the benefits of flying, bothrecreational and from a business point of view. We need to imagine a world where we'd advise much? No. It comes back to the responsibilities of individual companies andthe sector as a whole. All the new demand for aviation after 2020 is going to be delivered on a carbon neutral basis. This isbig ambition level. I'm working with a New Zealand because this is one of the few airlines in the world is getting serious about working out what their growth curve looks like. You are fairly discerning who you work with. The airport away from some of the oil companies were giving advice to. Is that a sign that you have some faith in New Zealand is genuine in this? Yes. We are a not-for-profit. We have to feel comfortable that the companies we work with are committed to sustainability. We do a lot of due diligence. We knew each other a bit from before. The truth of it is now that progressive companies like Unilever are making a big contribution to the total sustainability story around the world Is an important challenge to take this forward with companies, even ones in a hot place. Christopher, ultimately you can do all sorts of things, but you are going to have to ask consumers to pay more, aren't you? I think the bottom line for us is that we have been part of the fabric of NZ life for 75 years. Our success is completely dependent upon the success of New Zealand. There are things you can do to supercharge tourism, trade and enterprise, communities. The reality is our customers are demanding this. Our partners are demanding that is, in our investors are as well. This is the reality. You are facing a lot of competition. JetsTAR that's coming in on the regions. We've got a lot of programs. The carbon piece is one third of the big sustainable picture. We have invested more in new aircraft than ever. Consumers love travelling. Great for air NZ and more fuel efficient;. We look a biofuel projects all over the world. None of this project has scaled up. You have done some price modelling here. You have looked there were people are willing to pay extra. I don't think that's the case. We had to manage the costs with our own business. Would you offset some of the cost of this Out of your profits? We will look at other ways to recover the costs in our system. When you look at challenges like this, the reality for us is that there are some good benefits of doing this. You had to tell your shareholders and I be supportive of the idea? These are investors who are consciously choosing to invest in sustainable companies. You have more certainty about the supply chain. You are removing waste, which is lowering cost. Sir Jonathan, this all sounds good and inspiring, but do you see this as an extended from NZ as a whole? No comment On New Zealand politics today. All governments look at businesses. You can't deliver a sustainable economy of business is working with government and with civil society. This is something that is emerging. If you look at the success stories around sustainable economies in Europe, you can see how that three corner Bit really works well. I think more companies in New Zealand are going to the step up to the plate here. This would persuade a lot of companies. It's definitely part of the transformation that's going on around sustainability so it will be business led, not government? I wouldn't put quite like that, but government aren't quite as clear in the direction of travel is a need to be. The reality isat some point in the quite near future, government are going to have to put a price on carbon. There is no way you can deal with the huge externality in our economy like that without the proper price On it. They are very nervous about this. They are uncomfortable about what that would mean. Any company that get ahead of the curve works out how its business can be less impacted than some of its competitors ` you can see why they would play to a success story. New Zealand has branded ourselves as one hundred percent pure. We've had the debate about air miles. is that something thatpeople are concerned about? Occasionally there are still concerns about apples and New Zealand having more carbon than UK apples. You shouldn't worry about people being more informed about impact on the environment. There has been a good debate in the UK about balancing the question of carbon. We have to work to understand individual responsibilities about this. Government won't be able to feel comfortable about this. Do you see any risk in New Zealand, given we have only come up with a cut of 11% below 1999 levels? That makes us not on the front of the pack. I did the Earned the right to throw stones at a government aimed at emissions. My job as a business leader is to take control of the things I can control, like Air New Zealand's increasing emissions. That's where comes back to us around more efficient aircraft, much more fuel efficient practices, more investment and carbon offsetting programs that can do social enterprise with the New Zealand. Clearly you see the value in New Zealand promoting itself as clean, green brand? Yes. the environment is a big part of tourism here. As a company, as a tourism business bringing leisure travellers into New Zealand, we had to make sure they are high-value tourists, not just volume. we got very involved with the Department of conservation. We did the first private partnershippromoting biodiversity, relocation, promoting the great walks of New Zealand I know what they could about the government, but they argue New Zealand as a food producing country. We are dominated by agriculture. Should New Zealand a dispensation in the eyes of the world when it comes to our contribution for carbon emissions because we are a food producing country? Absolutely not. No country can get a dispensation for its own particular economy. It absolutely clear that economies are land-based have got to work really hard to reduce emissions. New Zealand has done some work on that. There are no get out of jail free cards here. Every single country has to step up. I get nervous and people say they have special circumstances. That won't last very long. New Zealand is 100% pure in terms of marketing, not producing. If we can use more leadership here from air New Zealand and others, that will help the politicians enormously. You are quite discerning with who you work for. Why did you walk away from theoil companies are trying to change? We don't walk away from those who use fossil fuels. But we walk away from shell and BP because we felt they were not taking the core business model. Shell was intent on drilling in the Arctic. The world doesn't need arctic oil. BP was stuck in the role they could play on renewables the leadership of those two companies has not responded to the challenges the world now faces. They are not in the right place. We spent two years trying to get them to move given towards a more intelligent position on that. Sir Jonathan Porritt, Christopher Luxon, thank you very much. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. LATER IN THE PROGRAMME, CORIN WILL BE TALKING TO LABOUR FINANCE SPOKESPERSON GRANT ROBERTSON. A SLOWING ECONOMY, A HEATED HOUSING MARKET IN AUCKLAND. WHY LABOUR SAYS ACTION IS NEED FROM OUR GOVERNMENT. THAT'S LATER IN THE PROGRAMME. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS FROM OTAGO UNIVERSITY, DR DEBORAH RUSSELL, A FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE AND A TAX LECTURER AT MASSEY UNIVERSITY, AND MICHAEL BARNETT, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE AUCKLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. Michael, the sustainability plan from a New Zealand. What is your first impression? I think wwhen Chris said it was a leadership thing, business has to start. It's about the economy and social stuff and the environment. The good thing that came out of that is that business is seeking solutions. There are other companies that our leaders when it comes to change. I don't think they are doing a good times. They are doing it because it's right and good the business. I think there's a real focus. I think it's more than just a fluffy. Sustainability is the buzzword. The minute things get tight, it's forgotten. During the GFC, we stopped talking about the environment. It's really interesting that suddenly we have got these business people are talking much more about sustainability. Once we are moving beyond the global financial crisis, a New Zealand made a profit of half a billion before tax last year capitalism has come under immense criticism in the last year. These people are trying to reinvent it will bring about a newhumane green capitalism I think they are by and large going to be met with approval, but this still questions about whether it's a bit fluffy. The phrase green wash always worries me. Is that something we should worry about? I think so. They are doing all the right things. That means people can perhaps by an Air New Zealand flight and feel good about it. I don't think we should doubt the sincerity of the intentions. The fact is that international travel is excluded from carbon taxes in the emissions trading scheme. All international flights so get those taxes or emissions credits attached to them. This is huge externality and a huge cost to the environment there isn't being captured by airlines. The thing about New Zealand is that if you want to go anywhere, you have to catch a plane. You can't drive Like in Europe. There is no alternative. They can be as green as they want. We still have to catch a plane to go anywhere. We have to pay the full cost of it. At the moment we're not. At the moment we're not paying the cost of international travel. Are our politicians Up to at the moment? They have been pretty slack on it. So Jonathan Porritt wasn't willing to go into too much. But it's not something John key is going to be leaping behind any time soon. give credit to businesses are what they are doing. I like is that at the bottom and it comes up through the company. whether its hundred million dollars has been invested into research, don't knock business for making a change, because we need to build on it. Government will get confidence from what business does. From a confident side, is not something that lights up the public's imagination. People have said they had heard that one before. There are some cynicism. One of the major industries in New Zealand is totally rejecting getting involved with emissions. That is the agricultural sector. They are absolutely resisting this. It is skewing how we respond to climate change give credit for the progress that has been made, because it's being made by business. Aviation has a huge challenge. It's not easy for them. The fuel is at the centre of the Calculation. It started back in 2008. That was the last we heard of it. Why? We had the first generation of biofuels that was really pushed by the Bush government and discredited. The big money has been spent there is Z energy and air NZ. They are starting to get the research finished now and some answers. These companies know a solution is required. They are not trying to manage the past. They are looking to the future. Travelers clear about two things ` safety and cost. Environment is low-down for travellers. It's not enough to say you can plant a tree to offset your carbon. You need to build that into the ticket price. The political problem rather than a problem for in New Zealand. LABOUR FINANCE SPOKESPERSON GRANT ROBERTSON IS HERE AFTER THE BREAK, AND LATER ON THE PANEL WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THE UK LABOUR PARTY'S SHARP LEFT TURN. LEADER JEREMY CORBYN POSTS A RESOUNDING VICTORY. THE RESERVE BANK CUT THE OFFICIAL CASH RATE AGAIN THIS WEEK. FURTHER CUTS ARE LIKELY, WITH THE BANK LOWERING ITS GROWTH EXPECTATIONS FOR THE COMING YEAR. LABOUR SAYS THE BANK IS COMING UP WITH PLAN B FOR THE ECONOMY WHEN IT SHOULD BE THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB. LABOUR FINANCE SPOKESPERSON GRANT ROBERTSON JOINS ME NOW FROM MELBOURNE. Isn't the bank supporting the economy as it should be? The bank is doing the job that should be. There is a sharp reduction in projected growth rates. It shows the economy is stuttering and staggering and Nzers will expect the government to step up and say what they are doing now. Plan a is not working now. It is not delivering sustainable growth. What should watch they be doing? Our most significant industry, the dairy industry, is under tough times. The Chinese economy is slowing down significantly. They will put huge pressure on those industries. If we are so reliant on the dairy in history selling into China, it is about stimulating work and jobs now and getting a diverse range of industries. Let's deal with the short-term issues. What you propose that the government do? It is very difficult to boost an economy. They need to get alongside regions and say what helps create jobs? Let's get that wharf built in Opotiki. It might be forestry roads in the North island. We can generate work and jobs out of those. The government is happy to sit on the sidelines. We can't stop what is happening internationally but we can prepare ourselves better. Is there not a riskthat if you chooseprojects that we are not ready for a not worthwhile and by the time those projects come on stream then things might have recovered? We can't sit back like that. If the government decides what those projects are from Wellington then maybe it won't work. But if we get along side the regions who know what is happening and support local government and so central government will be there is a partner. It is not about saying this is the right industry will the right sector, but it is about partnering the economy. We can't just sit back and hope the market solve everything for us. We need to identify and invest in those opportunities. The deficits - would you be prepared to give the government some leeway and also commit to running deficits yourself if you need to? If that needs to happen that might be the case, particularly as the economy starts to decline. Our criticism of the government is that after pretty good times they have failed to run a surplus. But if the focus is running a surplus in unemployment keeps growing and growing, is it is forecast to do then over 150,000 people will be out of work. That is not good enough. It is not good enough to let ourselves drift into that situation, which is what the government is doing. A big factor is the large number of migrants coming into the country and boosting the labour market. We are running at 55,000 net to the country now. Would you look at reducing it to try and boost wages? We do need to try and regulate the flow of migration into NZ so the economy can cope with that. In the last quarter we had negative GDP per capita. The economy was not keeping up with migration and it was not keeping up with population growth. We have to take it seriously and is about getting the right kind of migration into NZ. We don't want people just going into Auckland. we need to pick them into the regions Wage growth is very very low at the moment. That is making it very tough for a lot of Nzers who are trying to buy a house. Auckland is one of the most unaffordable housing markets in the world. The government's best advice is be careful. I weird the threshold where we need to reduce immigration number? Has become too high because we have rising employment? We're getting close to that point. We need the flow of migration supporting the skill gaps that we have. We have imported people into areas where we should have been training people in the past. We need more emphasis on education and training system to deliver the skills that people need. It is certainly putting pressure on wages which is not good the NZ long-term. The reserve bank governor has said we are in dangerous territorially in regards to housing. What would you do to try and rein in the Auckland housing market? Would you increase the bright line test? And bring in a capital gains tax? The bright line test has not gone through Parliament yet. We are tens of thousands of houses short of what is needed in Auckland at the moment. Kiwi build was about stimulating the growth. We need to look at the demand side of the equation. Interims of foreign spectators we would not allow them to buy into existing housing stock. They would have to build. Speculation needs to be discouraged generally. Jeremy Corbyn has won the leadership of the Labour Party in the UK. He has a very left wing policy. Do you see him bringing the NZ Labour Party further to the left? I don't think so. We have different circumstances. Jeremy Corbyn should be congratulated. He has put forward a platform that people have attached themselves to. He is giving them a sense of hope. The exact policies would differ from country to country, but it is about saying that they stand on the side of people. He has given them something directing clear to believe in and that is the lesson for us. We need to have bold and clear and direct policies. In we will do that. Is he electable to be prime Minister? I'm a long way from the UK. This is a pre-MMP Labour Party in a sense. He will have a big challenge to bring together. He'll be trying to use shift the centre of gravity to the left. Is that a good thing him taking the party further to the left? Again they will be up to people in the UK to judge. But it is clear Labour Party members in the UK believe that he is talking to them in a way that is about the core issues of antipoverty and anti-austerity measures. It will be a challenge to get those out to the rest of the country but he does have the mandate. OUR PANEL'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT INTERVIEW, PLUS JEREMY CORBYN'S BIG WIN IN THE UK LABOUR LEADERSHIP BATTLE LAST NIGHT. PLUS, A SUPER COUNCIL FOR HAWKE'S BAY? RESIDENTS HAVE UNTIL NEXT WEEK TO VOTE IN THEIR REFERENDUM. WE SENT KIM SAVAGE TO FIND OUT WHAT LOCALS WANT. THAT'S COMING UP. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL. This criticism about the reserve bank and the government leaning too heavily on them - it seems that the reserve bank says another quarter of a percent in the nothing happens. I'm not sure that Grant Robertson is going to get a lot of traction out the his criticisms. A lot of people are not interested in the critique. He did not really say a lot. They were great questions from Corin. But he was quite slippery. He said to win the that they needed bold alternatives but he didn't say what they were. Jeremy Corbyn is getting traction in other parts of the world because they are sick of this spin doctor politics. When we hear things like the Fonterra downturn, he talks about the structure down the line. Infrastructure spending in the region is a longer term solution. I take issue with what Bryce says. We're working on a longer-term planning the Labour Party. We are trying to generate sustainable policies. It's not about a populist approach but developing the right approach/ but you just end up being national lite. Indian people don't vote and don't get involved in politics. If you have a look at some of the roading and projects in Auckland. Why can't you start today on these project? We are not developing relationships of other countries enough. We are relying too much on China. He is saying things that I write that he does not have enough passion out there. What about the immigration numbers? The immigration policy is countrywide. Auckland has some specific issues around truck drivers. Each of our regions is different. We want is is in it solves the problems in each of the regions. Jeremy Corbyn has been in an emphatic win. It has been a massive shift from Labour I think it is a reaction from the years of Tony Blair in Britain. And a reaction to fake politics and spin doctors. That is what his victory has been about - 60% of members have voted for him. AND A STORY WE'VE BEEN FOLLOWING ON Q+A. LAST NIGHT THE UK LABOUR PARTY CHOSE ITS NEW LEADER. WE DON'T HAVE TO BE UNEQUAL. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE UNFAIR. POVERTY ISN'T INEVITABLE. THINGS CAN ` AND THEY WILL ` CHANGE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. CHEERING, APPLAUSE BUT MANY OF THESE MPs' POLITICS ARE SO FAR FROM HIS THEY WILL NOT GRIN AND BEAR IT. SEVEN OF THE SHADOW CABINET HAVE ALREADY RESIGNED. HE'S DONE IT, NOT BY A SMALL MARGIN, BUT BY A MILE ` A THUMPING VICTORY. THE UNEXPECTED CANDIDATE IS NOW LABOUR'S ACCIDENTAL LEADER. THIS IS AN ENORMOUS ACHIEVEMENT. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'VE WON BY SUCH A MARGIN? CAN YOU GIVE A BRIEF WORD TO THOSE WHO VOTED FOR YOU? BUT HIS FACE BETRAYS HOW BRUTAL THE COMING MONTHS MAY BE. ONE WORD ` THANKS. BUT TONIGHT, EUPHORIA. THESE ARE HIS PEOPLE. NEARLY 100,000 OF THEM HAVE SIGNED UP JUST TO BACK HIM ` A NEW AUDIENCE FOR THE IDEAS OF OLD LABOUR. AND SOME OF TODAY'S BIGGEST SMILES WERE FROM VINTAGE FACES. HE TOLD ME HE HADN'T BEEN SO HAPPY IN YEARS. PEOPLE ARE SICK AND TIRED OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS. IT WAS ORDINARY PEOPLE THAT WAS LEFT BEHIND WHILE THE BANKERS MADE A FORTUNE. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SCALE OF THE RESULT? JUST STUNNED. NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED... REPORTER SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY OH, HE WILL. WITH A MAJORITY LIKE THIS, THEY'LL HAVE TO. CORBYN AND HIS NEW DEPUTY, TOM WATSON, TRIUMPHED UNDER NEW PARTY RULES ` ED MILIBAND'S REAL LEGACY, PERHAPS. LABOUR IN THE HANDS OF ITS SUPPORTERS, NOT ITS MPs. That is the BBC's political editor with that report. Is it too far left? No it isn't. Three of his rivals for the leadership, when the Conservatives had a bill going through Parliament cutting benefits, three of his rivals abstain from voting on it and did not vote against it. He wants to make sure that the government is all the people of the country not just the rich. There are people who want to be heard. He has brought in a whole lot of people who have been ignored and disaffected. seven have left from Labour and another five have said that they will leave. We will have split in the party's. There was a split off to the right in the 90s. The pressure will be on the right of the party and how they respond. Will they buckle down and unify? Or will they threw their toys out of the cot? Has he gone to the left for a point of difference? His policies will be a bit diluted and he will be electable. I think he has sincerely held views. But he will have to moderate him down. But people are responding to his and seriously and his integrity. That marks him out from the spin doctors and he has been very direct about what he wants. No one doubts his authenticity. If you don't know this guy's background - he has been in the same seat for nearly 30 years. He has not just come off the street with radical ideas. What is a say about the state of the Labour Party in the UK? They're looking for someone to announce the those views rather than those Blairite views. It was no alternative before. They do not have the green party like we do even further to the left. Someone has come forward and enunciated the left-wing views. Of course Labour here will be watching what happens there. Can we expected of the Labour Party here they do start to get traction? The world is quite influx at the moment, but I can't see the Labour Party moving to the left that easily. NZ Labour is much more narrow. British Labour is very wide. That allow things like this to happen. Grant Robertson had a meek response to that. They need to cheerlead at the same time is not identify with Corbyn. It's about identifying with the authenticity in the lake of spin and politics. We saw Russel Norman tried to float printing money and he was told he was a loony. Russel Norman was a point of difference, and it gave someone out to cast a vote for. People have been given a distinct point of view in NZ. That works in a marketing point of view but when it comes to being elected AND LET'S MOVE ON TO FORMER GREEN PARTY LEADER RUSSELL NORMAN. HE'S QUIT, OFF TO HEAD UP GREENPEACE. I'VE HAD MY TURN AT POLITICS AND THAT WAS` THAT WAS IMPORTANT THAT` TO PLAY THAT ROLE TO GROW THE GREEN VOTE. BUT I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THE ROLE WITH GREENPEACE. Everyone thinks he is a very good politician. His legacy him has been turning the green party around. He goes back to the Air NZ thing we had at the start of the programme - he has made them more mainstream. He managed to bring the greens to some success. He did and he also made Labour and National look at themselves and try to come up with the blue Green and the red green. He may sustainability important and he deserves credit. The new leadership for the Greens? WE DID ASK IF RUSSEL NORMAN WOULD APPEAR ON THE PROGRAMME, AFTER THE BREAK ` PLANS FOR A SUPER CITY DIDN'T FLY IN WELLINGTON. NOW IT'S HAWKE'S BAY'S TURN TO DECIDE WHETHER THEIR FIVE COUNCILS WILL BECOME ONE. HAWKE'S BAY RATEPAYERS WILL KNOW THIS WEEK WHETHER THEIR FIVE COUNCILS WILL BE MERGED INTO ONE SUPER COUNCIL. THEY'RE VOTING IN A REFERENDUM AFTER THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMISSION RECOMMENDED JUST ONE COUNCIL AND ONE MAYOR FOR THE REGION. KIM SAVAGE VISITED THE BAY TO FIND OUT WHAT LOCALS THINK. YES OR NO? IT'S THE TALK OF HAWKE'S BAY AS THE REFERENDUM ON AMALGAMATION GETS UNDERWAY. THE BAY HAS FIVE COUNCILS ` NAPIER, HASTINGS, WAIROA, CENTRAL HAWKE'S BAY DISTRICT AND HAWKE'S BAY REGIONAL COUNCIL. SHOULD THEY BE MERGED INTO ONE COUNCIL TO RULE THEM ALL? LOOK AT OUR HOSPITAL, AND NOW WE HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY OVER TO HASTINGS HOSPITAL. AND, AH, WE'LL JUST SAY NO. JUST LEAVE NAPIER AS IT IS. I JUST PREFER COMMUNITIES TO KEEP TOGETHER AND NOT HAVE SOMEONE IN HASTINGS TRYING TO GOVERN WAIROA, FOR EXAMPLE. THE ONES I'VE BEEN TALKING TO ARE SAYING NO, AND PERSONALLY, I'M SAYING NO MYSELF. WELL, I JUST THINK TO GET EVERYONE TOGETHER AND WORK AS A TEAM IS A GOOD IDEA. AND COST FACTOR ` LOTS OF MEN TO BE EMPLOYED. I'M NOT FUSSED. YOU KNOW, CHANGE IS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING. YOU'VE GOT TO TRY IT BEFORE YOU CAN KNOCK IT, SO... DEAD AGAINST IT. ABSOLUTELY DEAD AGAINST IT. MEET LAWRENCE YULE. HE'S THE MAYOR OF HASTINGS. IF WE'RE GOING TO BE COMPETITIVE, WE CANNOT BE ONE COUNCIL OF 8000, ONE OF 13,000, ONE OF 57,000, ONE OF 75,000, DOING OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL THINGS. WE NEED TO BE TOGETHER, AND WE NEED TO GO OUT AND AGGRESSIVELY MARKET THIS REGION FOR JOBS AND OPPORTUNITIES. LADIES! HOW ARE YOU? HOW ARE WE TODAY? LOVELY TO SEE YOU BOTH. NOW, HAVE YOU VOTED? WHILE MR YULE DIDN'T START THE MERGER CAMPAIGN, HE'S BEEN A SUPPORTER FROM THE START. I AM THE ONLY MAYOR THAT HAS SUPPORTED A CHANGE. THAT'S BEEN QUITE AN INTERESTING POSITION FOR ME TO BE IN. I DON'T RESILE FROM IT, THOUGH. WHATEVER THE PEOPLE DECIDE, I THINK BRINGING THIS OPTION TO THE TABLE, FOR THE PEOPLE OF HAWKE'S BAY TO CONSIDER ABOUT THEIR FUTURE, AND IS THIS THE NEXT EVOLUTION OF CHANGE IS AN ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL THING THAT WE NEED TO DO. BUT FOR THOSE OUTSIDE OF HASTINGS, THERE'S A STICKING POINT ` THE $58 MILLION DEBT THAT HASTINGS WOULD BRING TO THE NEW COUNCIL BODY. THE WAY THAT DEBT IS DEALT WITH NEEDS TO BE DONE FAIRLY. THE COMMISSION HAVE SAID IT'LL BE RING-FENCED FOR SIX YEARS. IT MAY ACTUALLY HAVE TO BE RING-FENCED FOR LONGER THAN THAT, AND THAT'S THE DECISION THAT THE FUTURE COUNCIL CAN MAKE. JUST 20KM UP THE ROAD IS THE HAWKE'S BAY TOURISM HUB OF NAPIER. IT'S POPULAR AND PRETTY, AND ITS COUNCIL IS DEBT-FREE. MAYOR BILL DALTON SEES NO NEED FOR CHANGE. WE CURRENTLY HAVE A SYSTEM THAT WORKS. IT'S NOT PERFECT, BUT IT WORKS VERY WELL, AND WE'RE BEING ASKED TO THROW THAT OUT AND CHANGE IT FOR A SYSTEM WHICH IS AN UNTRIED EXPERIMENT, UNTRIED IN NZ OVER AN AREA SUCH AS WE'RE LOOKING AT, BUT TRIED ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD AND BEEN FOUND TO BE WANTING. SO I JUST THINK IT'S A CRAZY IDEA. BILL DALTON CAMPAIGNED FOR THE MAYORALTY ON AN ANTI-AMALGAMATION PLATFORM. HE SAYS LOCAL COUNCILS ARE ALREADY WORKING TOGETHER IN THE WAY THEY SHOULD. NAPIER PROVIDES ALL THE HR SERVICES FOR WAIROA. WE PROVIDE THE BUILDING CONTROL SERVICES. WE'RE PROVIDING BUILDING CONTROL SERVICES FOR CENTRAL HAWKE'S BAY. THERE IS AN ODD MAN OUT IN THIS STRUCTURE, AND IT'S NOT NAPIER. IT'S NOT WAIROA. IT'S NOT CENTRAL HAWKE'S BAY. DO YOU EXPECT THE CAMPAIGN TO GET NASTY? I WALK INTO PLACES NOW, AND PEOPLE LOOK THE OTHER WAY. WHERE I ALWAYS USED TO WALK IN AND SAY HELLO TO EVERYBODY, IT IS` PEOPLE HAVE GOT FIRMLY ENTRENCHED INTO THEIR LITTLE SILOS, ON ONE SIDE OF THE FENCE OR THE OTHER, AND REALLY, THERE'S BEEN SOME PRETTY TERRIBLE THINGS GO ON, AND I THINK IT'S A GREAT SHAME. HAWKE'S BAY IS TOO GOOD TO BE TORN APART LIKE THIS. YOU TAKE A MAYOR AWAY, YOU TAKE THEIR OWN COUNCIL AWAY, YOU HAVE A BOARD RUNNING THEM, WHICH HAS GOT ABSOLUTELY NO ABILITY TO RATE OR TO REGULATE. SO YOU'VE ALMOST DESTROYED THEIR SENSE OF COMMUNITY, AND THAT'S WHAT I FIND VERY SAD. THE WAIROA AND CENTRAL HAWKE'S BAY COUNCILS ARE ALSO AGAINST THE IDEA OF A MERGER, BUT IN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, AMALGAMATION HAS WON FAVOUR. SOME GREAT IDEAS IN NAPIER. THERE'S SOME GREAT IDEAS IN HASTINGS, BUT OFTEN, BY THE TIME THEY GET TO BUSINESS OR DOWN TO WELLINGTON, THEY CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT, AND HAWKE'S BAY LOSES AT THE END OF THE DAY. IT GIVES SOMEONE IN WELLINGTON AND THE BUREAUCRACY HERE A REASON TO GO, 'HEY, HAWKE'S BAY. WHEN YOU'RE UNITED ON YOUR AMBITIONS, 'COME AND TALK TO US. BUT RIGHT NOW, WE CAN'T DO IT.' WE ARE ALL LIVING AMALGAMATION ALREADY. WE LIVE IN ONE PLACE. WE WORK IN ANOTHER. WE SHOP IN ANOTHER. WE HAVE FRIENDS IN ANOTHER AND OUR FAMILIES IN ANOTHER PART OF OUR REGION. WE ARE ALREADY DOING IT. THE POPULATION IS. IT'S THE COUNCILS' STRUCTURE WHICH IS OUT OF DATE. IF I HAD FOUR OR FIVE MAYORS COME DOWN AND SAY TO ME, 'WE HAVE THIS ISSUE. WE'RE WORKING REALLY CLOSELY TOGETHER ON THIS. 'WE WANT YOUR HELP,' I'M MUCH MORE LIKELY TO LISTEN TO THAT THAN IF ONE PERSON CAME DOWN AND SAID, 'OH, LOOK, WE HAVE THIS ISSUE. 'I REPRESENT THIS CONSTITUENCY. 'HOWEVER, THIS IS THE REGION THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE GOVERNING.' FIVE VOICES TALKING TOGETHER IS FAR MORE POWERFUL THAN ONE VOICE, IN MY VIEW. FIRMLY IN THE 'NO' CAMP, STUART NASH IS QUESTIONING THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMISSION'S MOTIVES. THEY PROPOSED AMALGAMATION IN WELLINGTON. IT WAS AN ABSOLUTE DEBACLE, AND THEY ABANDONED IT. UH, AMALGAMATION WAS PROPOSED IN AUCKLAND. SAME SITUATION ` ABANDONED. SO I THINK WHAT THEY DID IS THEY HAD A LOOK AROUND, SAID, 'GOODNESS ME. 'IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING, 'THEN PEOPLE ARE GONNA QUESTION OUR REASON FOR BEING. 'THERE'S, AH, HAWKE'S BAY. 'LET'S PUSH THROUGH THIS AMALGAMATION PROPOSAL THERE 'BECAUSE THEN AT LEAST WE'RE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING.' AFTER THIS REFERENDUM, I'M GOING TO BE LOOKING VERY VERY HARD AT THE PROCESS THEY WENT THROUGH TO END UP AT THE DECISION TO GO AHEAD WITH THIS REFERENDUM. THAT'S JUST CHEAP, SILLY NASTINESS. BOTH SIDES ACKNOWLEDGE THERE'LL NEED TO BE SOME HEALING ONCE THE DECISION IS MADE. IF AMALGAMATION IS LOST, I'D HATE TO US AS A NO-CHANGE AGENDA. I THINK THINGS NEED TO CHANGE WITH THE TIMES, AND I THINK THERE CAN BE BENEFITS IN DOING SO. I WANNA SEE SOME BIG CHANGES IN HAWKE'S BAY, BUT THE CHANGES WE'RE BEING OFFERED ARE NOT THE RIGHT CHANGES. SO IF WE END UP BACK WITH THE STATUS QUO, THAT TO ME IS JUST A LAUNCHING PAD TO MAKE SOME DECENT CHANGES IN THE STRUCTURE OF HAWKE'S BAY. FOR NOW, HAWKE'S BAY'S FUTURE IS IN VOTER'S HANDS, AND THEY ONLY HAVE UNTIL TUESDAY TO HAVE THEIR SAY. BEFORE WE GO, SOME OF YOUR FEEDBACK ON OUR INTERVIEWS. LET'S START WITH AIR NZ'S NEW SUSTAINABILITY PLAN. SIMON M EVANS TWEETED: MARY-ANN DE KORT SAID SHE LIKES BUNNINGS' IDEA NOW IN RESPONSE TO OUR ECONOMIC INTERVIEW WITH GRANT ROBERTSON. OWEN TWEETED: WAKA HUIA IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND INGRID LAUDER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015