1 GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. FIRST UP ` AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER MALCOLM TURNBULL'S VISIT ` WHY HE'S NOT BUDGING ON DETAINING AND DEPORTING KIWIS. DID YOU CONSIDER REVIEWING THAT POLICY WHEN IT COMES TO KIWIS? > OR EVEN, PERHAPS, GOING AS FAR AS CARVING OUT SOME EXEMPTIONS IN LAW FOR NZ? > THE POLICY APPLIES TO EVERYBODY. THEN ` PRINCIPAL YOUTH COURT JUDGE ANDREW BECROFT ON HOW TO TURN AROUND THE WORST YOUNG OFFENDERS. THEY DOMINATE THE HEADLINES, BUT WE ARE SEEING THAT SORT OF VIOLENCE THAT SHOULD RIGHTLY CONCERN THE WHOLE NATION. THEN ` WE GET THE FIRST LOOK AT A NEW REPORT ON GROWING OUR REGIONAL ECONOMIES. DIFFERENT REGIONS WITH DIFFERENT PROBLEMS ` SHOULD COUNCILS HAVE THE POWER TO SET UP THEIR OWN SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES, WITH THEIR OWN SPECIAL RULES TO BOOT? THE NZ INSTITUTE'S OLIVER HARTWICH TELLS US ABOUT HIS NEW IDEA. AND WE'RE LOOKING AT THE RISE OF DRONES. THEY MAY BE HIGH ON THE CHRISTMAS PRESENT LIST, BUT DRONES ARE A HEADACHE FOR OUR CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY. REPORTER KIM SAVAGE LOOKS AT HOW WE CAN KEEP OUR SKIES SAFE WITHOUT SPOILING THE FUN. AND WE'LL ANALYSE ALL THE ISSUES WITH OUR PANEL ` JOSIE PAGANI, LABOUR PARTY MEMBER AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST; HASTINGS MAYOR LAWRENCE YULE; AND FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY, POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR JENNIFER CURTIN. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. WE'RE MATES, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO DETAINING AND DEPORTING KIWIS, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER MALCOLM TURNBULL SAYS WE'LL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE. ON HIS FIRST VISIT TO NZ, HE'S RULED OUT MAKING ANY CHANGES TO THE CONTENTIOUS POLICY, SAYING IT WAS AUSTRALIA'S 'SOVEREIGN RIGHT'. AND THE LAW APPLIES ACROSS THE BOARD. THE REAL ISSUE, I THINK, HAS BEEN NOT SO MUCH IN THE LAW ITSELF BUT IN THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN A LARGE NUMBER OF REVOCATIONS SINCE THE LAW WAS INTRODUCED, AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THIS BACKLOG, AND THAT IS BEING WORKED THROUGH, AND THOSE NUMBERS WILL DECLINE; AND ALSO WITH THE TIME THAT IT HAS TAKEN TO PROCESS THE APPLICATIONS TO IN EFFECT TO SET ASIDE THE REVOCATION. SO THE... CONCERNS HERE` AND I HAVE PAID VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THEM; I CAN ASSURE YOU WE PAY A LOT OF ATTENTION TO PUBLIC OPINION IN NZ; TRANS-TASMAN HARMONY IS VERY IMPORTANT. NZ IS VERY IMPORTANT TO AUSTRALIA AND TO AUSTRALIAN LEADERS, BUT THE CONCERNS, I THINK, HAVE LARGELY ARISEN FROM THOSE TEMPORARY FACTORS AND THE DELAYS, AND WE ARE DIVERTING ADDITIONAL RESOURCES TO ENSURE THAT PROCESSING IS DONE MUCH MORE QUICKLY. AND WE'RE GOING TO KICK OFF WITH OUR PANEL ` AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR JENNIFER CURTIN, WHO HAS STUDIED AND TAUGHT POLITICAL STUDIES IN AUSTRALIA; LAWRENCE YULE, THE MAYOR OF HASTINGS AND PRESIDENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT NZ; AND JOSIE PAGANI, A LABOUR PARTY MEMBER AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST. JENNIFER, WE WERE EXPECTING MORE. WE GOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. ARE YOU SURPRISED AT MALCOLM TURNBULL'S VERY DEFINITE STANCE? I'M NOT SURPRISED AT ALL. HE LEFT AUSTRALIA SAYING HE WAS GOING TO BE TOUGH ON THIS. THE IDEA THAT NZERS WOULD EXPECT ANY CHANGE WAS PROBABLY ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT WAS UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN. THIS IS A DOMESTIC POLICY ISSUE FOR AUSTRALIA. TURNBULL NEEDS TO SOLIDIFY HIS STRENGTH WITH THE VOTERS. HE'S GOING TO THE POLLS NEXT YEAR, SO HE WOULD LOOK SOFT IF HE CHANGED THIS. JOSIE, FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW THERE WAS NEVER ANY GAIN IN THIS FOR HIM. IT WAS LIKE WATCHING AN EPISODE OF PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. JOHN KEY AND MALCOLM TURNBULL STRUTTED AND A STRONG POSITION, BUT I'M SURE BEHIND-THE-SCENES THEY WERE ENJOYING A BARBECUE. WE WERE NEVER GOING TO GET ANYTHING. THERE HAVE BEEN THREE POLLS SINCE TURNBULL BECAME LEADER. HIS PERSONAL PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER RATINGS ARE VERY HIGH, BUT THE PARTY IS MAKING NO DIFFERENCE. THAT'S BELOW AVERAGE FOR A HONEYMOON PERIOD. HE HAS TO DO SOMETHING QUITE TRANSFORMATIONAL DOMESTICALLY. LAWRENCE, WE HEARD ABOUT THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP. IT APPEARS MORE AND MORE THAT'S IN OUR MIND. THERE IS A SPECIAL BOND, BUT IT'S THE USUAL AUSTRALIA VERSUS NEW ZEALAND RIVALRY. WE NEED AUSTRALIA MORE THAN THEY NEED US. WHEN IT'S A BIG DOMESTIC ISSUE, THEY HAD TO DEAL WITH THEM IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN WE DO. IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP FOR US. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OUR PAST AND OUR FUTURE IS CLOSE TO AUSTRALIA. I WAS INTERESTED THIS WEEK TO SEE PAUL KEATING ` HE SAID AUSTRALIA AND TURNBULL NEED TO RISE TO THE CHALLENGE TO BE MORE LIKE NZ BY HAVING THE TREATY. HE'S CHALLENGING TURNBULL TO THINK ABOUT THE REPUBLIC AND THINK ABOUT THE TREATY WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE. AND BE MORE LIKE NZ IN THAT SENSE. THEN THE LIBERAL PARTY MIGHT STAND A CHANCE. JENNIFER, YOU'VE LIVED IN AUSTRALIA. POLITICALLY, THERE IS NO SUPPORT. IS THERE ANY INTEREST IN AUSTRALIA THAT THERE ARE NZERS ABOUT TO GET FLUNG BACK HERE? I DON'T THINK THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS ON THE RADAR. IT'S IRONIC THAT PAUL KEATING HAS COME OUT AND SAID ALL THESE THINGS ABOUT WHAT AUSTRALIA NEEDS TO DO BECAUSE HE WAS ONE OF THE ONES THAT DID HIS OWN VERSION OF KIWI BASHING. WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT NZERS GO TO AUSTRALIA UNDER A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VISA ARRANGEMENT. A LOT OF NZERS ASSUME THAT WITH EMPLOYMENT AND RESIDENCE COMES A LOT OF RIGHTS, BUT THEY HAVE TO APPLY FOR PERMANENT RESIDENCY TO GET THOSE RIGHTS. DO WE NEED TO BE FOCUSING ON THAT END OF THINGS A LITTLE HARDER? DEPORTATION APPEARS TO BE A DEAD ISSUE NOW. TURNBULL WON'T MOVE. DO WE NEED TO BE FOCUSING AT THE OTHER END? WE'VE GOT KELVIN DAVIS ON A PLANE LOOKING LIKE JAMES BOND. POLITICALLY, THE ISSUE MIGHT CARRY ON FOR A WHILE. THERE IS A BIGGER ISSUE ABOUT CITIZENSHIP AND RIGHTS OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHO WERE ALMOST BORN IN AUSTRALIA. THEY ARE AUSTRALIAN. AND YET WHILE YOU PAY TAXES, YOU CAN'T GET THE BENEFITS. THAT SEEMS COMPLETELY UNFAIR. BUT WE'VE GOT NOTHING IN WRITING. IT SPEAKS VOLUMES THAT KELVIN DAVIS HAS GONE THERE ON HIS TODD. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GONE THERE. THE NZ GOVERNMENT HAS KNOWN THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE. THIS WAS HAPPENING IN APRIL AND MAY. IT'S JUST THE CHRISTMAS ISLAND EVENT AND THE YOUNG MAN DYING IN CUSTODY WHICH HAS CREATED THE MEDIA STORM OVER THIS. BEAR WITH ME HERE. WE HAD THE REFUGEES AND THE SMALL BOY ON THE BEACH. IT CHANGED OUR POINT OF VIEW. YOU HAD A NZER IN A DETENTION CENTRE WHO TOOK HIS OWN LIFE AND THAT DIDN'T APPEAR TO CHANGE ANYTHING. THE NZ GOVERNMENT IS CAUGHT HERE A LITTLE BIT. AUSTRALIA IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO US ECONOMICALLY. THE CHANGES MADE ABOUT MIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION, YOU HAVE TO WORK ON OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. WE SHOULDN'T EXPECT ANYTHING RADICAL OUT OF TURNBULL'S VISIT. AS WE WORK TOGETHER, WE'LL KNOCK THESE THINGS OFF ONE AT A TIME. IT APPEARS THESE PEOPLE ARE COMING BACK. A REGION LIKE YOURS IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE PEOPLE. DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING IN PLACE? NO, WE DON'T. A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE FAMILY CONNECTIONS. BUT A LOT DON'T. I ACCEPT THAT. THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO HELP WITH THAT. THESE PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO BE IN DETENTION CENTRES. THEY COULD COME BACK TO NZ AND APPEAL FROM NZ. THEY ARE CHOOSING TO STAY THERE. THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE SCARY. THE NZ GOVERNMENT WILL ULTIMATELY LOOK AFTER THEM. BUT IT'S BEEN SO HARD TO GET AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP THERE FOR NZERS LIVING THERE. THE INCENTIVES ARE NOT THERE EITHER. IT'S NOT AN EASY PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP. THAT'S A CONSCIOUS DECISION FROM THE AUSTRALIANS. JENNIFER, THE RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT IS MUCH NICER. DO WE NEED TO LOOK AT CHANGING THAT? I THINK SOME BUSINESSES ALREADY MIGHT BE. SOME ORGANISATIONS MAY IMPOSE THE SAME FOREIGN WORKERS. BUT IT'S NOT IN OUR INTERESTS TO GET TOUGH ON AUSTRALIANS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING TOUGH ON US. WE NEED TO BE CLOSER TO AUSTRALIA NOT FURTHER. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER... YOU CAN EMAIL US... OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF - EACH TEXT COSTS 50 CENTS. AFTER THE BREAK ` TACKLING YOUTH CRIME. AN INTERVIEW WITH PRINCIPAL YOUTH COURT JUDGE ANDREW BECROFT. THE YOUTH COURT IS OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD AS SOME SORT OF SOFT, NAMBY-PAMBY, KUMBAYA-SINGING, MILO-DRINKING SORT OF AFFAIR. 1 CRIMES INVOLVING CHILDREN NEVER FAIL TO SHOCK. ONLY THIS WEEK, KAITAIA POLICE TOOK A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY INTO CUSTODY WHO THEY BELIEVE MAY HAVE BEEN ON METH WHEN HE ALLEGEDLY TRIED TO ROB A DAIRY WITH A TEENAGER. WHILE THESE KIND OF CASES MAKE THE HEADLINES, THE REAL STORY IS THAT YOUTH CRIME HAS BEEN TRACKING DOWNWARDS FOR SOME TIME NOW. I SPOKE TO PRINCIPAL YOUTH COURT JUDGE ANDREW BECROFT LAST WEEK AND ASKED ` IS IT A SIGN THAT OUR YOUTH JUSTICE SYSTEM IS WORKING? I THINK IT'S OUTSTANDINGLY GOOD NEWS. WE'VE NEVER CAUGHT LESS YOUNG PEOPLE. THERE'S A 50% DROP IN YOUNG PEOPLE COMING TO COURT. THE NUMBERS HAVE NEVER BEEN LOWER. WE CAN BE CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC. IN MY VIEW, THE SYSTEM IS WORKING ACROSS THE BOARD, NOT JUST THE YOUTH COURT, THE ENTIRE YOUTH JUSTICE SYSTEM. WE NEED TO BE CAUTIOUS, HOWEVER, IN THREE RESPECTS. ONE, WE KNOW THAT VIOLENT OFFENDING ISN'T DROPPING AT THE SAME RATE. SECONDLY, WE KNOW THAT WHILE FEMALE OFFENDING IS DROPPING, IT'S NOT DROPPING AT THE SAME RATE AS OFFENDING BY YOUNG MEN. AND THIRDLY, WHILE MAORI OFFENDING IS DROPPING, CRUCIALLY, IT'S NOT DROPPING AT NEARLY THE SAME RATE AS NON-MAORI YOUTH OFFENDING. SO THE DISPROPORTIONALITY OF MAORI IN THE YOUTH COURT HAS GONE FROM ABOUT 45% TO 65%. IN ABOUT 20 COURTS, MORE THAN 75% OF THOSE APPEARING ARE MAORI. SO THAT'S THE CAUTION IN THE OTHERWISE VERY GOOD NEWS THAT WE NEVER HEAR IN THE MEDIA. I WANT TO, SORT OF, LOOK AT ALL THREE OF THOSE ASPECTS, FIRST AND FOREMOST THE VIOLENT SIDE OF IT. JUST THIS WEEK A 12- AND 15-YEAR-OLD ALLEGEDLY WENT INTO A KAITAIA DAIRY ARMED ` 12 AND 15 YEARS OLD. WHY ARE WE SEEING YOUNGER AND YOUNGER KIDS TRYING ON THESE SORTS OF CRIMES? WHAT FACTORS CAN THAT BE PUT DOWN TO? WELL, THE FIRST THING TO SAY IS THANKFULLY THESE SORTS OF INCIDENCES ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN AND THEY'RE NOT A TREND, BUT THE DEEPER QUESTION IS WHY ARE WE SEEMINGLY BECOMING A MORE VIOLENT COMMUNITY? AND PROBABLY THE ANSWERS GO A LONG WAY BACK. THEY GO NOUGHT TO 2, NOUGHT TO 5. MOST OF THE SERIOUS YOUNG OFFENDERS IN THE YOUTH COURT ARE THE MOST DAMAGED, THE MOST DYSFUNCTIONAL, THE MOST DISADVANTAGED CHILDREN IN NZ AND THEY COME FROM BACKGROUNDS OF RELATIVE POVERTY, BUT THAT'S NOT AN OVERWHELMING CAUSATIVE FACTOR. THEY COME FROM TRANSIENT FAMILIES, VIOLENT FAMILIES, ABUSIVE FAMILIES, FAMILIES WHERE FATHERS OR SIBLINGS ARE IN PRISON, FAMILIES WHERE THERE'S CHRONIC THIRD-GENERATION VIOLENCE. AND WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE IN A SMALL GROUP ` IT'S ONLY 2000 OR SO IN YOUTH COURT IN NZ ` THAT DOMINATE THE HEADLINES, BUT WE'RE SEEING THAT SORT OF VIOLENCE THAT SHOULD RIGHTLY CONCERN THE WHOLE NATION. THAT'S A GENERATIONAL THING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. HOW DO YOU BREAK THAT CYCLE WHEN IT SEEMS SUCH AN INGRAINED THING? IT GOES BACK TO FATHERS, EVEN GRANDFATHERS AT THIS POINT. CORRECT, CORRECT. EVERYTHING THAT WE SEE IN THE YOUTH COURT POINTS US BACK TO THAT NOUGHT TO 2, NOUGHT TO 5, ST IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA WAS RIGHT; GIVE ME THE CHILD TILL 7, WE'LL GIVE YOU THE ADULT. THOSE ISSUES ARE REALLY OUTSIDE THE PURVIEW OF THE YOUTH COURT, BUT WE LOOK BACK. WE SEE BETTER EARLIER INTERVENTION, WE SEE BETTER COMBINED GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION, BUT WE CAN ALWAYS DO MUCH BETTER. AT THE HERE AND NOW LEVEL, WE NEED TO RESPOND TO THAT SORT OF VIOLENCE, AND THE YOUTH COURT HOLDS THOSE YOUNG OFFENDERS TO ACCOUNT. THE YOUTH COURT IS OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD AS SOME SORT OF SOFT, NAMBY-PAMBY, KUMBAYA-SINGING, MILO-DRINKING SORT OF AFFAIR, BUT THERE ARE AVENUES AVAILABLE AND RESPONSES AVAILABLE TO DEAL WITH THOSE TOUGH OFFENDERS. I HAVE NO PRIDE IN SAYING, FOR INSTANCE, THAT A BOY 14� YEARS OLD WAS CONVICTED OF TWO VICIOUS, VIOLENT, PREDATORY RAPES AND RECEIVED A SEVEN-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE. SO THE YOUTH COURT DOES HOLD YOUNG PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT AT THE TOP END. WE ALSO KNOW THERE ARE VERY GOOD INTERVENTIONS AVAILABLE FOR THE YOUTH COURT. THEY ALL ARE JARGON-SOUNDING WORDS LIKE MULTISYSTEMIC FAMILY THERAPY, BUT THEY INVOLVE WORKING WITH THE WHOLE FAMILY SYSTEM IN THE COMMUNITY WITH A COLLEGIAL APPROACH WITH A TEAM OF EXPERTS, AND THAT DOES WORK. IT'S HARD WORK, IT'S DEMANDING WORK, BUT WE KNOW IT WORKS. YOU'VE MENTIONED A NUMBER OF SORT OF KEY AGES THERE. AT WHAT POINT IS IT TOO LATE? ARE THESE KIDS ON THIS PATH AT 7, 15, AS YOU SAID, 14, 15 YEARS OLD AND THAT'S JUST GOING TO BE THEIR LOT? THEY'RE GOING TO BE BAD, BAD PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO END UP IN JAIL PRETTY MUCH FOR MOST OF THEIR LIVES? WELL, GREG, I WOULDN'T BE IN THE JOB IF I DIDN'T HAVE HUGE OPTIMISM THAT IT'S NEVER TOO LATE, BUT IT'S MUCH HARDER. THE EARLIER WE CAN INTERVENE, IT COSTS LESS AND IT'S MORE EFFECTIVE. THE LATER WE INTERVENE, IT'S TOUGHER AND IT COSTS MORE. WE KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, OF THOSE TOP-END OFFENDERS IN THE YOUTH COURT, ABOUT 45% GO ON TO OFFEND AS ADULTS. WE DON'T KNOW WHICH 45 WHEN WE DEAL WITH THEM IN THE YOUTH COURT, BUT THAT'S IN ONE SENSE DEPRESSING BUT ALSO A CHALLENGING FIGURE. IT'S ALSO REASSURING TO KNOW NOWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD DOES ANY BETTER, AND, IN FACT, NZ DOES BETTER FOR ITS FAMILY GROUP CONFERENCE SYSTEM AND ITS JOINED-UP COMMUNITY-WIDE APPROACH THAN MOST OTHER COUNTRIES DO. BUT IT'S NEVER TOO LATE. BUT WE KNOW THAT FOR A SMALL GROUP OF WHAT THE JARGON CALLS LIFE-COURSE PERSISTENT OFFENDERS, THEY'RE GOING TO BE AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE LONG AFTER THE YOUTH COURT'S DONE THEIR BEST WITH THEM. I WANT TO GO THROUGH A BIT OF A SCENARIO WITH YOU, AND YOU MENTIONED THIS EARLIER WITH THE GENERATIONAL THING. YOU'VE GOT A FAMILY ` GRANDAD WAS A BAD BUGGER IN PRISON. SO IS DAD ` HE'S STILL IN PRISON. YOU'VE GOT A KID MAYBE 10 YEARS OLD, 11 YEARS OLD NOW. SOCIAL WORKERS ARE GOING TO LOOK AT THAT KID AND GO, 'IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, THAT KID IS JUST GOING TO GO DOWN THE SAME 'PATH.' WHAT POWERS DO YOU HAVE TO STOP THAT AT THIS POINT, OR DO YOU JUST HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE BOMB TO GO OFF? WELL, FOR THE YOUTH COURT, IT'S TRIGGERED BY OFFENDING, SO THERE'S GOT TO BE OFFENDING. FOR 10 TO 13, THERE'S A VERY GOOD CHILD OFFENDING SYSTEM. IT'S A BIT COMPLEX AND CONVOLUTED, AND IT PERHAPS NEEDS TO BE SIMPLIFIED SOMEWHAT, BUT WE CAN INTERVENE. THOSE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHEN WE REMOVE CHILDREN FROM A FAMILY ` THEY'RE NOT YOUTH COURT DECISIONS; THEY'RE FAMILY COURT DECISIONS. THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL DECISIONS, AND OF COURSE WE WANT CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY TO GET IT RIGHT AND DO BETTER. I GUESS A DEEPER QUESTION FOR OUR COUNTRY, AS A PROUD NZER I SAY THAT, HOW IS IT THAT WE HAVE ONE OF THE WORST RATES IN THE UNICEF CHILD INDEX OF ABUSE IN THE WORLD? I MEAN, HOW HAVE WE GOT TO A PLACE IN OUR COUNTRY WHERE THESE FIGURES ARE SO BAD? THAT'S A REAL CHALLENGE. CAN WE JUST TOUCH ON SOMETHING YOU MENTIONED RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING AS WELL ` THE AMOUNT OF FEMALE OFFENDERS WE'RE SEEING, SERIOUS OFFENDERS? WHAT CAN THAT BE PUT DOWN TO? BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THAT'S A RELATIVELY RECENT REVELATION, I WOULD IMAGINE. YEAH, IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S CHALLENGING AND CAUSING DEEP CONCERN WITHIN THE WHOLE YOUTH JUSTICE SYSTEM. IT'S WIDER THAN A JUDGE'S EXPERTISE TO COMMENT, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT MOST FEMALE YOUNG OFFENDERS IN THE YOUTH COURT, THEY ARE 15- OR 16-YEAR-OLDS WITH THE LIFE EXPERIENCE OF A 24-YEAR-OLD, SHALL WE SAY, OFTEN HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY ABUSED, OFTEN SEXUALLY ABUSED. THEIR OFFENDING USUALLY IS CONTRARY TO MOST YOUTH OFFENDING ` ALCOHOL-FREE, IT'S TARGETED, IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF PEOPLE WHO THEY KNOW. IT'S A VERY COMPLEX ISSUE, QUITE DIFFERENT FROM MALE OFFENDING ` MALE SERIOUS VIOLENT OFFENDING ` THAT IS USUALLY RANDOM, SPONTANEOUS, UNPLANNED, ALCOHOL-FUELLED. WHAT ABOUT THE AGE OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY? DO WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT, AND DO WE NEED TO REVISE THAT? WELL, THE CRIMES ACT AGE IS 10. IN TERMS OF THE YOUTH COURT JURISDICTION, IT ENDS AT 16TH BIRTHDAY. WE DON'T INCLUDE 17-YEAR-OLDS. MOST OF THE REST OF THE WORLD DOES. IT'S IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BRAIN SCIENCE TO INCLUDE IT. IT'S A MATTER FOR PARLIAMENT. IT'S NOT MY ROLE AS A JUDGE TO COMMENT ON IT, BUT I CAN HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE ISSUES. I THINK THE CONCERN IS THAT MAYBE THE YOUTH COURT WOULD PROVIDE A SOFT APPROACH. AS I'VE EXPLAINED, WE CAN HOLD YOUNG OFFENDERS TO ACCOUNT, 17-YEAR-OLDS INCLUDED. NO 17-YEAR-OLD WHO IS NOW CHARGED IN THE DISTRICT COURT WHO OFFENDED SERIOUSLY WOULD LIKELY BE DEALT WITH ANY DIFFERENTLY. THE ADVANTAGE WOULD BE THAT WE, NZ, LEADS THE WORLD, WHERE THERE'S ABOUT 80% OF YOUNG OFFENDERS THAT AREN'T CHARGED. THEY DON'T COME TO COURT. THEY'RE DEALT WITH IN THE COMMUNITY, USUALLY WITH POLICE; YOUTH AID; CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY INTERVENTION. WE DO THAT EXTRAORDINARILY WELL, IN MY VIEW. THE REST OF THE WORLD WATCHES WHAT WE ARE DOING. WE ARE SEEN AS WORLD LEADERS. IF 17-YEAR-OLDS WERE INCLUDED IN THE SYSTEM, IT WOULD BE A MAJOR STEP TO TRY TO EXTRACT A GROUP OF TEENAGERS WHO DON'T NEED TO GO ON TO THE ADULT COURT AT ALL. WE'RE CONCERNED IN NZ ABOUT MAORI DISPROPORTIONALITY. IN A SENSE, IT'D BE A SILVER BULLET TO EXTRACT A NUMBER ` DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER, IT WOULD BE OF MAORI, IN PARTICULAR ` 17-YEAR-OLDS WHO DON'T NEED A FORMAL DISTRICT COURT INTERVENTION BUT COULD BE DEALT WITH IN SOME OTHER WAY. BUT FOR THOSE WHO NEED A DISTRICT COURT INTERVENTION, THE AMMUNITION IS THERE. IT'S AN IMPORTANT PUBLIC DEBATE. IT'S A MATTER FOR PARLIAMENT. IT'S NOT FOR ME AS A JUDGE TO EXPRESS A VIEW ON IT. ANNE TOLLEY HAS ANNOUNCED` IS GOING TO REVIEW CYFS ` A FAIRLY FAR-REACHING REVIEW OF CYFS. FROM WHAT YOU KNOW OF WHAT IS BEING LOOKED AT AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON IT? I'VE BEEN IN THE ROLE 14 YEARS NOW, GREG, AND I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN SIX OR SEVEN REVIEWS OF CYFS. CYFS WILL ALWAYS NEED TO DO BETTER, BUT BECAUSE THE UNDERLYING PROBLEMS ARE SO PROFOUND, I THINK, HUMANLY SPEAKING AT THIS SIDE OF HEAVEN, THERE ARE PROBABLY ALWAYS GOING TO BE HUGE CONCERNS WHY IT CAN BE DONE BETTER. IT'S A LITTLE BIT UNFAIR IN ONE SENSE TO HOLD CYFS TOTALLY TO ACCOUNT TO BE THE SOLUTION FOR WHAT, AS I EXPLAINED EARLIER, IS A HUGE SOCIETAL PROBLEM. THE REAL QUESTION IS, AS NZ, HOW CAN WE BE HAPPY WITH THE LEVELS OF CHILD ABUSE THAT ARE TAKING PLACE? BUT IT'S IMPORTANT, AND I'M OPTIMISTIC. I'VE APPEARED BEFORE THE REVIEW PANEL. I'M EXCITED BY SOME OF THE THINKING. I THINK THERE'S EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THERE'LL BE STEPS FORWARD COMING OUT OF THIS REVIEW. LATER ` THE US FOUNDER OF A TEACHING SCHEME THAT FAST TRACKS BRIGHT YOUNG GRADUATES INTO THE CLASSROOM. AND A NEW IDEA FOR BOOSTING OUR REGIONS ` SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES ` WHERE LOCAL COUNCILS DECIDE ON LOCAL POLICY. THE HEAD OF THE NZ INITIATIVE THINK-TANK EXPLAINS AFTER THE BREAK. . Earlier this year, right here on this shared driveway, a couple of neighbours came up with a bright idea for a business. < You hear so often about shared driveways causing drama between neighbours. I know. < But for you guys, it caused a business. Jess bought me these pots one day. I said, 'Wow. We could totally do that.' Yeah. And it's sort of grown from there. How did people find you before the website? At local markets. And then we started a Facebook page. Yup. If we can streamline the process, that's gonna make life so much better. < And that's where the website's come in. Absolutely. Yeah. We're business mobile customers, and so with that, Spark have given us a free website. The template is there. Drag and drop, basically. It's super easy. Pretty good timing for the business, leading up to Christmas. Everyone's gonna get a Chalk Design pot for Christmas. (CHUCKLES) Click on 'buy', and we send it out. Merry Christmas! Yeah. Merry Christmas. Where to from here for the business? Everything looking pretty good? We're global. We've got a website. Yeah. And that's amazing. If you're a business mobile customer, get yours now. 1 WELCOME BACK. THE BUSINESS-BACKED THINK-TANK THE NZ INITIATIVE SAYS COUNCILS SHOULD BE GIVEN THE POWER TO CREATE THEIR OWN SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES TO BOOST GROWTH. IT'S THE KEY ARGUMENT IN A NEW STUDY ON FINDING NEW WAYS TO GROW REGIONAL PROSPERITY. THEIR REPORT ALSO SUGGESTS COUNCILS SHOULD GET A SHARE OF THE TAXES THAT COME FROM THAT NEW GROWTH TOO. THE NZ INITIATIVE'S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OLIVER HARTWICH, JOINS ME NOW. WHAT DO YOU WANT THESE ECONOMIC ZONES TO LOOK LIKE FIRST AND FOREMOST? IS THE RMA AND CHANGE IN THE RMA THE FIRST TARGET? NO. WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT IS A REALISATION THAT NZ IS ONE OF THE MOST CENTRALISED COUNTRIES IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD. 91 CENTS OF EVERY DOLLAR OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE SPENT BY CENTRAL GOVERNMENT; ONLY 9% SPENT LOCALLY. THE OTHER THING IS, ACTUALLY, WITH A DEGREE OF CENTRALISATION COMES A DEGREE OF CENTRALISATION OF DECISION-MAKING, SO WE'RE OFTEN TRYING ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL POLICIES DESIGNED IN WELLINGTON, IN PARLIAMENT, IN THE BEEHIVE, AND THEN APPLIED ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY. WE THINK WE SHOULD ACTUALLY TRY DIFFERENT POLICIES AND WE SHOULD TRIAL THEM OUT FIRST ON A SMALLER SCALE JUST DOING IT WITH ONE COUNCIL AT A TIME FIRST AND SEE WHETHER THESE NEW POLICIES ACTUALLY WORK. IF THEY WORK, GREAT. WE CAN ACTUALLY COPY THESE EXPERIENCES AND WE CAN ROLL IT OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY. IF IT DOESN'T WORK, OF COURSE, THE DAMAGE IS LIMITED TO JUST THIS ONE COUNCIL. BUT THIS WAY, WE COULD ACTUALLY EXPERIMENT WITH DIFFERENT POLICIES. GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE. GIVE ME A REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE. LET'S TAKE THE WEST COAST, FOR EXAMPLE. IT'S BEEN HIT, AS WE KNOW ` MINING CLOSURES, UNEMPLOYMENT. WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO THE WEST COAST TO MAKE LIFE BETTER? WHAT CHANGES, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WOULD YOU DO? FIRST OF ALL, WE KNOW THAT WHEN IT COMES TO MINING EXPLORATION, MINERALS EXPLORATION, NZ IS A VERY DIFFICULT PLACE, ACTUALLY, TO NAVIGATE. WE KNOW THAT OTHER PLACES ARE MUCH BETTER WHEN IT COMES TO ENCOURAGING MINING. TAKE A LOOK AT AUSTRALIA, FOR EXAMPLE. HAVE A LOOK AT SOUTH AUSTRALIA IN PARTICULAR. AND IF THE WEST COAST ACTUALLY WANTED TO TAKE INSPIRATION FROM THAT, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO ROLL OUT THAT SCHEME. THERE WOULD BE NO DAMAGE TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY; WE WOULD JUST SEE WHETHER IT WORKS IN A NZ CONTEXT AS WELL. IF IT WORKS, OF COURSE THE WEST COAST WOULD KEEP SOME OF THE PROCEEDS OF GROWTH; IT WOULD KEEP SOME OF THE TAXES GENERATED, AND THEN WE COULD SEE WHETHER WE COULD TRY SOMETHING SIMILAR ACROSS OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL. THE WEST COAST, THOUGH, OF COURSE, WOULD BE A LOADED EXAMPLE IN SO MUCH AS YOU'VE GOT THE CONSERVATION SIDE OF IT. AND I CAN IMAGINE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE ANY CHANGES THAT PERHAPS GAVE THE GREEN LIGHT TO MORE MINING OR MORE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? OF COURSE, BUT THAT IS REALLY THE STRENGTH OF OUR APPROACH BECAUSE WE'RE NOT IMPOSING ANYTHING ON ANYONE. WE'RE ACTUALLY ASKING LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS. SO THIS WOULD REALLY BE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE AND CLOSE TO THE PEOPLE BECAUSE WE'RE ACTUALLY STRENGTHENING LOCAL DEMOCRACY, AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES COULD HAVE A SAY IN ALL OF THIS. THEY COULD BALANCE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH AND THE PROPER OPPORTUNITIES WITH ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS. PROBABLY THEY COULD DO IT FAR BETTER THAN JUST SIMPLE BUREAUCRACY IN WELLINGTON. STEVEN JOYCE, THOUGH, SAYS THINGS IN THE REGIONS ARE GROWING AND GOING WELL. WHY IS THIS NEEDED AT ALL? WELL, SOME PLACES COULD PROBABLY DO WITH A BIT MORE GROWTH. TAKE A LOOK AT WELLINGTON, FOR EXAMPLE. THAT WAS ONE OF THE REGIONS THAT THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS IS NOT DOING SO WELL. IF WELLINGTON, FOR EXAMPLE, WANTED TO INCREASE ITS FOREIGN DIRECT INVESTMENT INTAKE, WE COULD ACTUALLY TAKE WELLINGTON OUT OF THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT ACT. WE COULD ACTUALLY LET THE COUNCIL DECIDE WHETHER THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE MORE LIBERAL ABOUT FOREIGN DIRECT INVESTMENT BECAUSE, FRANKLY, WE ARE NOT FACING THE KINDS OF CRAFAR FARMS, LOCHINVAR STATION PROBLEMS IN WELLINGTON BECAUSE THERE'S NOT MUCH FARMLAND AROUND. SO WELLINGTON WOULD BE THE PERFECT PLACE TO TRY OUT LIBERALISATION OF THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT ACT. OK, THERE APPEAR TO BE THREE KEY POINTS HERE. FIRST OF ALL, THE RMA. SECONDLY, THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT ACT, AND, PERHAPS MORE DRAMATICALLY, CHANGING TAXES PROVINCE TO PROVINCE. THE FIRST ONE, I THINK THE GOVERNMENT WOULD WANT TO GET RID OF THAT RED TAPE IF POSSIBLE, AS WELL ` THE RMA ` WOULDN'T THEY? WELL, THE RMA IS AN ACT, OF COURSE, THAT'S BEEN WITH US FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS AND OVER THIS TIME WE'VE BASICALLY TRIED TO REFORM IT EVERY SINGLE YEAR WITH NOT MUCH SUCCESS. SO WE THINK, RATHER THAN WAITING FOR THIS FARAWAY DAY WHERE WE GET WHOLESALE REFORM OF THE RMA, WE COULD ACTUALLY TRIAL OUT SOME OF THE LIBERALISATIONS LOCALLY. AND I THINK THE CHANCES OF THAT HAPPENING ARE FAR GREATER THAN WAITING FOR THIS DAY WHEN WE ACTUALLY GET THE REFORM THAT THE RMA REALLY NEEDS. BUT IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT THE RMA. IT'S ABOUT TRIALLING OUT DIFFERENT POLICIES. IT COULD BE ABOUT THE RMA; IT COULD BE ABOUT PLANNING; IT COULD BE ABOUT IMMIGRATION; IT COULD BE ABOUT ALL SORTS OF THINGS. THE KEY TO ALL OF THIS IS REALLY THAT WE'RE ENABLING, WE'RE EMPOWERING LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO HAVE THEIR SAY RATHER THAN TRIALLING OUT ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL POLICIES WHICH, IN THE END, OFTEN TURN OUT TO BE ONE SIZE FITS NONE. IS THERE A RISK, THOUGH, THAT CENTRAL GOVERNMENT'S GOING TO SAY, 'WELL, ALL FINE AND WELL. YOU'RE EMPOWERING LOCAL COUNCILS, 'BUT THAT'S TAKING POWER AWAY FROM CENTRAL GOVERNMENT.' AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LET IT HAPPEN. WELL, IT COULD ACTUALLY BE A POSITIVE FOR CENTRAL GOVERNMENT AS WELL, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GENERATING SOME KIND OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, ECONOMIC GROWTH, WHICH OTHERWISE WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. SO IN THE END, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME DEAL BETWEEN CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT WHEREBY THE PROCEEDS OF THIS EXTRA GROWTH WOULD BE SHARED BETWEEN CENTRAL AND LOCAL, SO THERE'S A POSITIVE IN IT FOR BOTH CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT. HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO THE GOVERNMENT? HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO STEVEN JOYCE? WE'VE SPOKEN TO STEVEN JOYCE. WE'VE SPOKEN TO OTHER GOVERNMENT MINISTERS. WE'VE SPOKEN TO THE OPPOSITION. OF COURSE WE'VE TALKED TO COUNCILS AS WELL. AND WE SEE THAT THERE IS A GROWING INTEREST IN THESE IDEAS. AND FIRST OF ALL, STEVEN JOYCE, BECAUSE HE'S THE ONE WHO'S GOING TO YEA OR NAY IT, I GUESS, ULTIMATELY. WHAT'S THE RECEPTION BEEN LIKE? WELL, I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH ALL OF THESE POLITICIANS IS ACTUALLY A DEGREE OF CURIOSITY ABOUT THIS IDEA BECAUSE IT'S NEVER BEEN TRIED IN NZ. IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN TRIED ELSEWHERE. THERE ARE 3500 SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES AROUND THE WORLD IN 130 COUNTRIES. THE UK IS CURRENTLY EXPERIMENTING WITH THE SCHEMES THAT ARE REALLY GOING IN OUR DIRECTION. NZ, I THINK, IS ONE OF THE LAGGARDS WHEN IT COMES TO INTRODUCING SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES, SO THEREFORE I SENSE A DEGREE OF CURIOSITY AMONG OUR POLITICIANS TO TRY OUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT HERE. ONE EXAMPLE, AS WELL, THAT WAS GIVEN AND I'LL TRY AND BREAK THIS DOWN AS BEST I CAN. IF YOU MAKE A REGION MORE ATTRACTIVE WITH, SAY, THE RMA GONE, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO THERE. IF MORE PEOPLE GO THERE, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE THERE. MORE PEOPLE LIVE THERE, THAT'LL TAKE THE PRESSURE AS WELL OFF THE HOUSING MARKET LIKE, SAY, OOH, I DON'T KNOW, AUCKLAND. IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN? OR IS THAT JUST TOO FAR DOWN THE PIPE? NO, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN. THE OTHER THING, OF COURSE, WE WANT TO SEE HAPPEN IS ONCE YOU INSTALL A SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONE IN ONE PLACE AND IT WORKS, IT'S SUCCESSFUL, OTHER PLACES IN NZ SHOULD HAVE AN AUTOMATIC RIGHT TO GET THE SAME EXEMPTIONS FROM NATIONAL LEGISLATION AS WELL. SO THE IDEA IS NOT TO CREATE FAVOURS, NOT TO REALLY JUST SINGLE OUT A SPECIFIC REGION, SAY, 'THIS IS THE REGION WE WANT TO GROW AND WE'RE PICKING A WINNER.' WE ACTUALLY WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT WORKS. IF IT WORKS, WE CAN APPLY THIS EXPERIENCE TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. SAY SOMETHING WORKS IN WELLINGTON OR IN AUCKLAND, THEN DUNEDIN SHOULD HAVE AN AUTOMATIC RIGHT TO SAY, 'THAT'S WHAT WE WANT AS WELL.' SO ULTIMATELY, IF SOME OF THESE WERE TO PUT IN PLACE, ARE YOU LOOKING AT ATTRACTING INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS OR JUST MOVING BUSINESSES THAT ARE ALREADY HERE OUT OF THE CENTRAL CITIES AND OFF TO THE REGIONS? WHO ARE YOU AIMING THIS AT? WE WANT TO SEE MORE FOREIGN INVESTMENT, OF COURSE. WE WANT TO SEE MORE INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS IN NZ, AND WE WANT TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR COMPANIES THAT ARE ALREADY OPERATING IN NZ TO GROW, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PICKING ANY WINNERS. WE JUST WANT TO CREATE ECONOMIC GROWTH. WE WANT TO CREATE GROWTH FOR COMMUNITIES, AND WE WANT TO EXPERIMENT WITH DIFFERENT POLICIES THAT WE CAN THEN APPLY TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. OK, SO WHERE TO FROM HERE? WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT? YOU'VE GOT YOUR BOOK. YOU'VE GOT THIS HERE, AND I IMAGINE THIS IS A FAIRLY COMPREHENSIVE REPORT. WHAT NOW? THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE WORK TO BE DONE. THERE'S MORE WORK TO BE DONE ON ACTUALLY DESIGNING THE SPECIFICS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE REFORM. THAT'S ANOTHER PROJECT THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY TACKLING AT THE NZ INITIATIVE. AND MORE BROADLY SPEAKING, WE NEED A DEBATE ABOUT LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ABOUT LOCALISM. AGAIN, AS I SAID, OTHER COUNTRIES ARE CURRENTLY MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF HAVING GREATER POWER FOR LOCAL COMMUNITIES. IN NZ WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT A VERY CENTRALISED FORM OF GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK THIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT THE ROLE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT. THE HOUSING CRISIS IN AUCKLAND - WE DID TOUCH ON THIS BEFORE. DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS COULD GO SOME WAY TO ADDRESSING THAT? ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE PART OF THE HOUSING CRISIS, OF COURSE, IS THE CRISIS OF DELIVERING INFRASTRUCTURE. SO WE'VE GOT SOME IDEAS ON HOW TO INCENTIVISE DELIVERY OF NEW LAND FOR DEVELOPMENT BY MAKING IT EASIER FOR COUNCILS TO FINANCE THE INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDED. FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAD A PREVIOUS REPORT WHERE WE SAID WE COULD PROBABLY EARMARK THE GST PAID ON NEW DEVELOPMENTS AND BASICALLY REBATE THAT GST TO COUNCILS SO THEY CAN ACTUALLY FINANCE THE REQUIRED INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THESE NEW HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS. WE COULD ALSO TALK ABOUT RELAXING, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME DENSITY OR HEIGHT REGULATIONS WHICH WOULD JUST MAKE IT EASIER FOR A COUNCIL LIKE AUCKLAND TO DEAL WITH THE CHALLENGES THAT COME FROM A GROWING POPULATION. ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. THE PANEL'S HERE AFTER THE BREAK. AND THEN WE TALK TO THE FOUNDER OF A FAST-TRACK TEACHING PROGRAMME, TRAINING HIGH ACHIEVERS TO TAKE UP TEACHING IN POOR SCHOOLS. IS IT GETTING RESULTS? THAT'S COMING UP. WELCOME BACK TO Q + A. SO, LAWRENCE, SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES. THE LOCAL COUNCILS HAVE BEEN FULLY CONSULTED IN THIS. YOU'RE PART OF THIS REPORT. IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT? COUNCILS HAVEN'T BEEN, BUT LOCAL GOVERNMENT NZ HAS BEEN AT THE FORMATIVE STAGES. I THINK MANY COUNCILS WILL LOOK AT THIS WITH A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST. WHAT COUNCILS WANT AROUND NZ IS A FAIR SHARE OF THE ECONOMIC ACTION. A BIG ISSUE IN NZ IS IN REGIONAL NZ, WHEN YOU'VE GOT POPULATION GROWTH ` 70% OF IT ` IN THE NEXT 30 YEARS IS GOING TO BE FROM TAUPO NORTH. THERE IS A LARGE PART OF NZ THAT IS FACING DEPOPULATION OR STAGNANT POPULATIONS. ANYTHING TO HELP REGIONAL NZ IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR THE ORGANISATION I REPRESENT. JOSIE, WE TOUCHED ON THIS BEFORE WITH OLIVER. IS THERE A DANGER THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING, 'THAT'S JUST TAKING TOO MUCH POWER FROM US' WHEN YOU START MUCKING REGIONS WITH REGIONS WITH THINGS LIKE THE RMA, THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT ACT. ARE THEY JUST GOING TO DRAW THE LINE THERE? I THINK THE CONCEPT` I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK THIS IS ACTUALLY DEVOLVING POWER TO LOCAL BODIES, WHETHER IT IS LOCAL COUNCILS OR IWI GROUPS OR SALVATION ARMY FOR DELIVERY OF SOCIAL SERVICES. THIS IS ACTUALLY THE BIGGEST POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN THE WORLD AT THE MOMENT, I THINK, AND THERE'S A FIGHT GOING ON BETWEEN THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT AS TO WHO OWNS IT AND WHO'S GOING TO DEFINE IT. SO THE PROBLEM I HAVE` BECAUSE I THINK IT IS A VERY LEFTIE IDEA OF PUTTING PEOPLE FIRST AHEAD OF INSTITUTIONS, YOU PUT POWER AND DECISION-MAKING AND RESOURCES ` THAT'S THE KEY ` INTO THE HANDS OF LOCAL PEOPLE. BUT OLIVER'S FOCUS ON REGULATION, RMA, OVERSEAS INVESTMENT, IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE A TROJAN HORSE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BIGGEST ROADBLOCK FOR THE REGIONS IN TERMS OF GROWING. SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO REMOVE THE RMA, ARE YOU ALSO GOING TO REMOVE YOUR RIGHT TO CALL ON THE GOVERNMENT TO CLEAN UP AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS? YOU CAN'T OPT OUT OF THE RMA. WE CAN FIX THE RMA, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. BUT THE IDEA THAT YOU'D HAVE SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONES WHERE YOU OPT OUT OF LEGISLATION IS JUST GOING TO ALIENATE THOSE IN THE CENTRE AND THE LEFT WHO AGREE WITH DEVOLUTION. JENNIFER, YOU'RE THINKING THIS COULD BE OPENING A BIG OLD CAN OF WORMS. YOU'RE NODDING. I SUPPOSE, DEVOLUTION AND GIVING MORE POWER TO LOCAL BODIES IS NOT NEW. AND OLIVER IS RIGHT IN THAT WE ARE BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL IN THE REGARD. WE HAVE VERY CENTRALISED ARRANGEMENTS. BUT THERE IS NO REASON WHY GOVERNMENT` CENTRAL GOVERNMENT COULDN'T REWRITE THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT AND START SHARING FISCAL INCOME WITH THEM ALREADY THROUGH SOME PERCENTAGE OF THE GST. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WE HAVE TO FIRST HAVE THE ECONOMIC ZONES AND ATTRACT FOREIGN INVESTMENT FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. I AGREE WITH LAWRENCE THAT NORTHLAND AND THE BY-ELECTION THERE DEMONSTRATED THAT PEOPLE IN THE REGIONS ARE REALLY LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVES. BUT, REALLY, DEREGULATING IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE DEVOLUTION IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY AROUND AND SAYING THAT SOMETHING MIGHT WORK ` YOU KNOW, MINIMUM LABOUR STANDARDS, FOR EXAMPLE ` IN ONE REGION, THEREFORE WE'LL SEE OTHER REGIONS DO IT, I THINK, A LOT OF NZERS WOULD FIND IT QUITE SCARY. HERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE. WITH THE EARTHQUAKE IN CHRISTCHURCH A FEW YEARS AGO, ARE YOU GOING TO OPT OUT OF BUILDING STANDARDS? I THINK WE'RE GETTING A BIT CARRIED AWAY HERE. I THINK, ACTUALLY, THIS IS A TRIAL BEING SUGGESTED. SOME SPECIAL ZONES ARE BEING SUGGESTED TO TRIAL SOME THINGS. AND I THINK IF YOU CAN COME UP WITH SOME ZONES AROUND NZ AND YOU CAN MEASURE THE IMPACTS OF MAKING SOME CHANGES, WE WON'T TO DO AWAY WITH THE RMA, BUT IN THE SPECIAL AREAS, THERE WILL BE SPECIALLY AGREED PROVISIONS BETWEEN THE LOCAL AUTHORITY AND THE GOVERNMENT. THERE MAY ACTUALLY BE SPECIAL TAXATION PROVISIONS BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THIS AREA. THERE MAY ACTUALLY BE SPECIAL RATINGS PROVISIONS. AND ONCE YOU'VE DONE ALL THAT AND YOU TRIAL IT AND THEN MEASURE IT, YOU MAY ACTUALLY SEE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES ARE BEING MADE TO THE AMOUNT OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. LET'S TALK HYPOTHETICALLY. LET'S GO TO NORTHLAND, WHERE WE KNOW THE UNEMPLOYMENT ISSUES AND WE TAKE AWAY, LET'S SAY, THE RMA, AND FOR SOME REASON THAT WORKS WONDERS. SURELY THE REST OF THE COUNTRY WILL ALSO WANT A PART OF IT. BUT I DON'T THINK IT'LL BE LIKE A REGION. YOU'LL GO TO AN AREA AND YOU'LL WORK OUT WHAT YOU DO IN AN AREA. I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO BE QUITE DEFINED. SO IF I LOOK IN MY OWN CASE IN HAWKE'S BAY, FOR INSTANCE, WHICH IS A FOOD PRODUCTION HUB OF AUSTRALASIA. WE HAVE LOTS OF INVESTMENT DECISIONS TO BE MADE, WITH MASSIVE OPPORTUNITIES AROUND SENDING EXPORTS TO THE MARKET. WE'VE GOT SOME RMA ISSUES. WE'VE GOT SOME LOGISTIC ISSUES. WE'VE GOT SOME OVERSEAS INVESTMENT ISSUES. YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO UNBUNDLE ALL OF THAT IN A PACKAGE AND SAY, 'THIS WOULD BE REALLY GOOD FOR MY REGION.' WHAT IS THE FIRST THING YOU WOULD DO IF YOU WERE GIVEN THE TOOLS TO GO ALONG THE LINE OF OLIVER'S REPORT? WHAT'S THE FIRST THING YOU WOULD TAKE FROM THE BOX? I WOULD CREATE A ZONE. I WOULD GET A PIECE OF LAND. I WOULD RING-FENCE IT, AND I'D WORK OUT A REALLY EASY SET OF RMA PROVISIONS YOU COULD WORK THROUGH. I'D HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE GOVERNMENT ABOUT OVERSEAS INVESTMENT PROVISIONS. I WOULD TALK TO THEM ABOUT SHARING REVENUE GENERATED FROM SUCH A ZONE. THAT'S WHAT I'D DO. BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK RMA IS THE BIGGEST ROADBLOCK TO THAT HAPPENING? BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT A PLACE LIKE NELSON OR A REGION AROUND NELSON, WHERE IT'S BECOME THE FISH CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE IN NZ, SO THAT HAPPENED NOT BECAUSE WE REMOVED THE RMA FROM THAT AREA, BUT BECAUSE GOVERNMENT INVESTED SCIENCE AND RESEARCH INTO THERE THAT ATTRACTED THE PRIVATE BUSINESSES, THE FISHING BUSINESSES THAT GO INTO THAT COMMUNITY, BECAUSE IT'S GOT THE BEST MINDS COMING UP WITH THE BEST IDEAS. AND YOU'VE GOT THIS PORT, AND SO THAT REGION GROWS. IT IS NOT IDENTIFYING THE RIGHT PROBLEM, AND THEREFORE IT IS THE WRONG SOLUTION. BUT I DO AGREE` WHAT WAS IT, 91C IN THE DOLLAR COMES FROM THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT. MORE OF THAT NEEDS TO GO INTO LOCAL HANDS AND LOCAL DECISIONS. JENNIFER, AT THIS STAGE, THIS IS A REPORT. THIS IS AN IDEA. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL GO ANYWHERE? I THINK THE NZ INITIATIVE DOES, AND CLEARLY THEY'RE ALREADY WORKING WITH LOCAL GOVERNMENTS. SO AS AN IDEA, IT MAY STIMULATE SOME INTEREST, AND SOME VERSION OF IT MIGHT HAPPEN, BUT I DON'T THINK IN ITS CURRENT FORM AND IN THE WAY IT'S BEING FRAMED FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION IT WILL NECESSARILY WORK. IT DOES FEEL LIKE MASSIVE DEREGULATION WE SAW IN THE 1980S. IT CAN CONCERN VOTERS OUT THERE. IS ANOTHER CONCERN IN THIS THAT WE ARE TOO SMALL TO DO THIS? I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE I KNOW` WELL, YOU LOOK AT OTOROHANGA. DALE WILLIAMS WHEN HE WAS MAYOR THERE, HE IDENTIFIED THE PROBLEM TO GROWTH IN THAT REGION WAS SKILLS ` LACK OF SKILLS; SKILLED STAFF GOING TO FUND THOSE` RUN THOSE BUSINESSES AND WORK IN THOSE BUSINESSES. SO HE BOUGHT A TRAINING INSTITUTION IN THAT COMMUNITY. PORIRUA, THEY SET UP` THEY'VE GOT A, SORT OF, SPECIAL ECONOMIC ZONE, WHERE YOU ATTRACT BUSINESSES, YOU GIVE THEM A SPECIAL RATE. MARKETING AND SPACES ARE SHARED. THERE ARE WAYS OF DOING IT. I JUST THINK WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REMOVING KEY LEGISLATION SUCH THE RMA, SUCH AS OVERSEAS INVESTMENT FRAMEWORK, YOU'RE JUST ON A HIDING TO NOWHERE, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT FOR THAT. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL LEAVE THAT ONE THERE. OVER 25 YEARS AGO, A YOUNG PRINCETON STUDENT WANTED TO FIND A WAY TO GET THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST GRADUATES TO BECOME TEACHERS IN NEEDY SCHOOLS. THE GOAL WAS TO HELP LIFT THE ACHIEVEMENT OF SOME OF AMERICA'S POOREST KIDS, WHO FACE A TOUGHER BATTLE TO SUCCEED IN EDUCATION. WENDY KOPP LAUNCHED 'TEACH FOR AMERICA', KIND OF LIKE A PEACE CORPS FOR TEACHERS, WHICH IN TURN HAS BECOME A GLOBAL ORGANISATION THAT NOW INCLUDES NZ. HERE, THE NON-PROFIT HAS BEEN TRAINING UP TEACHERS FOR A TWO-YEAR COMMITMENT IN LOW-DECILE SCHOOLS IN EITHER AUCKLAND OR NORTHLAND. WENDY KOPP IS IN NZ FOR THE 'TEACH FOR ALL' ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND JOINS KATIE BRADFORD NOW. WELCOME. THE US TEACH FOR ALL PROGRAM HAS BEEN RUNNING FOR 25 YEARS. WHY DID YOU SET IT UP? AT THE TIME, I WAS A COLLEGE STUDENT AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY, AND I FELT THAT` I MEAN, I MYSELF AND MANY OTHERS IN MY GENERATION WERE SEARCHING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY THAT WE WEREN'T FINDING TO ASSUME REAL RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. ALL THE RECRUITERS AT THE TIME OF LIBERAL ARTS GRADUATES LIKE MYSELF, WERE INVESTMENT BANKS AND MANAGEMENT CONSULTING FIRMS, BANGING DOWN OUR DOORS, ASKING US TO COMMIT JUST TWO YEARS TO WORK IN THEIR FIRMS. AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW` I MEAN, I HAD BECOME VERY INTERESTED IN AND COMMITTED TO THE IDEA THAT WE ARE A COUNTRY, THE UNITED STATES, THAT ASPIRES TO BE A PLACE FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, AND WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET. I MEAN, TRULY, WHERE KIDS ARE BORN PREDICTS WHERE THEY'LL END UP. AND SO ONE DAY, I JUST THOUGHT OF THIS IDEA. LIKE, WHY ARE WE NOT BEING RECRUITED AS AGGRESSIVELY TO COMMIT TWO YEARS OF TEACHING IN OUR URBAN AND RURAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS? I BECAME OBSESSED WITH THAT IDEA, BOTH BECAUSE OF THE POWER IT WOULD HAVE IN THE SHORT RUN, CHANNELLING ALL THIS ENERGY INTO CLASSROOMS IN OUR LOWEST INCOME COMMUNITIES, BUT I WAS ALSO THINKING ABOUT THE LONG-TERM POWER OF THAT. WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD, THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF OUR COUNTRY, THE PRIORITIES OF OUR COUNTRY IF WE CAN GET OUR MOST PROMISING FUTURE LEADERS TO HAVE THEIR FIRST TWO YEARS OUT OF COLLEGE BE TEACHING IN OUR MOST ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED COMMUNITIES INSTEAD OF WORKING ON WALL STREET. SO THAT WAS THE BIG IDEA. HOW DOES THE PROGRAMME WORK? HOW DO YOU GET THESE PEOPLE INTO AND TALK THEM INTO DOING IT? NOW 'TEACH FOR ALL' IS A NETWORK OF INDEPENDENT ORGANISATIONS IN 38 COUNTRIES, INCLUDING NZ, AND GROWING. AND EACH OF THESE ORGANISATIONS GO OUT AND AGGRESSIVELY RECRUIT THEIR COUNTRY'S MOST HIGHLY SOUGHT-AFTER RECENT COLLEGE GRADUATES AND YOUNG PROFESSIONALS, AND ASK THEM TO COMMIT TWO YEARS TO TEACH IN THE HIGHEST-NEED COMMUNITIES IN THEIR COUNTRIES. A LOT OF INVESTMENT GOES INTO THESE PEOPLE IN PROVIDING PRE-SERVICE AND ONGOING COACHING AND PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT IN PURSUIT OF REALLY IMPORTANT AND IMMEDIATE IMPACTS FOR KIDS, BUT ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT LONG-TERM IMPACTS. I MEAN, THE BIG GOAL THAT UNITES ALL OF THESE ORGANISATIONS, IS TO SAY WE'RE DEVELOPING A LEADERSHIP FORCE IN OUR COUNTRIES, WHO ARE DEEPLY COMMITTED TO ADDRESSING THE HISTORIC OPPORTUNITY GAPS THAT FACE THE MOST MARGINALISED KIDS IN OUR COUNTRIES. SO THE IDEA IS INVEST IN THESE FOLKS FOR TWO YEARS INITIALLY, WHICH BECOMES SUCH A TRANSFORMATIVE EXPERIENCE WITH THESE TEACHERS. AND THEY END UP NEVER LEAVING THE WORK. THEY ARE COMMITTED TO THIS FOREVER. SOME OF THEM STAY IN THE CLASSROOM; OTHERS MOVE INTO SCHOOL PRINCIPALSHIPS AND SCHOOL SYSTEM LEADERSHIP ROLES OR INTO POLICY OR OTHER SECTORS LIKE, YOU KNOW, EVEN BUSINESS. WE NEED MORE CORPORATE LEADERS AS WELL WHO DEEPLY UNDERSTAND THE CHALLENGES FACING OUR MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN. THE PROGRAMME ITSELF IS VERY INTENSIVE. EIGHT WEEKS IN THE US, SIX WEEKS HERE. IS THAT ENOUGH TO PROPERLY TRAIN A TEACHER TO GO INTO THESE SCHOOLS, TO TEACH WHAT ARE OUR OFTEN TROUBLED CHILDREN? WE ACTUALLY` I DO NOT SEE IT AS AN EIGHT WEEK PROGRAMME. IT'S NOT AN EIGHT-WEEK PROGRAMME. THAT WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH. WHAT WE DO IS WE FIRSTLY SELECT PEOPLE THROUGH A RIGOROUS PROCESS. WE SHOULD NOTE THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. I MEAN, IN NZ, THE 'TEACH FOR NZ' IS ACCEPTING 7% OF PEOPLE WHO APPLIES. SO THEY'RE SELECTING PEOPLE WHO BRING REAL TRACK RECORDS OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AND STRONG LEADERSHIP SKILLS. AND THEN THEY'RE INVESTING IN THEM FOR TWO YEARS. IT STARTS WITH A PRE-SERVICE PROGRAMME. IT'S A VERY INTENSIVE EIGHT-WEEK PROGRAMME, OR HOWEVER LONG IT IS IN EACH COUNTRY. BUT THEN` THE TEACHERS ARE CLUSTERED WITHIN SCHOOLS, AND THEY HAVE TWO YEARS OF ONGOING PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT, INCLUDING UNIVERSITY COURSEWORKS, AND IN THIS CASE, WITH THE PARTNER, THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND. SO IT'S A VERY INTENSIVE PROGRAMME. I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE RESEARCH ON TEACHER DEVELOPMENT, ONE THING THAT BECOMES CLEAR IS THAT THE MOST POWERFUL FORM OF TEACHER DEVELOPMENT COMES IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH TEACHERS ARE TEACHING, THROUGH IN SERVICE DEVELOPMENT. AND THEY JUST THINK, 'WE HAVE AN ADVANTAGE THAT I'M SURE MANY OTHER TEACHER PROVIDERS WISH THEY HAD,' WHICH IS WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR TEACHERS THROUGH THEIR FIRST TWO YEARS IN THE CLASSROOM, SO WE CAN REALLY EXTEND THEIR TRAINING THROUGHOUT AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE OUR RESULTS ARE SO STRONG. SPEAKING OF THE RESULTS, IT'S ABOUT LIFTING ACHIEVEMENT AND HELPING THESE KIDS BE SUCCESSFUL. IS IT WORKING AND HOW DO YOU MEASURE THIS? SO WE LOOK AT TWO THINGS. WE LOOK AT ARE THE TEACHERS MAKING AN IMPACT IN THEIR TWO YEARS. HERE IN NZ, THERE HAVE BEEN TWO INDEPENDENT STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT IT IS WORKING. PRINCIPALS ARE SHOWN TO BE WANTING TO HIRE MORE OF THESE TEACHERS. THEY'RE VERY STRONG OUTCOMES. WE'VE SEEN OTHER STUDIES IN THE US AND THE UK, WHICH ARE THE MOST ESTABLISHED PROGRAMMES IN THE NETWORK, THAT ALSO SHOW THAT THE TEACHERS WHO COME IN THESE PROGRAMMES HAVE A POSITIVE IMPACT ON THEIR STUDENTS' ACHIEVEMENTS. I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT IS THE LONG-TERM IMPACT. I GUESS WE JUST HAVE TO COME MUCH MORE DEEPLY UNDERSTAND, I GUESS, THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE INEQUITIES THAT WE'RE WORKING TO ADDRESS. THE FACT IS THAT ALL OVER THE WORLD, THERE ARE SEGMENTS OF KIDS IN VIRTUALLY EVERY COUNTRY, THE MOST DEVELOPMENT CONTEXT ` AND CERTAINLY NZ IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF THIS ` TO THE LEAST DEVELOPED, AND THERE ARE WHOLE SEGMENT OF KIDS WHOSE ACHIEVEMENT LEVELS ARE FAR BELOW THE ACHIEVEMENT LEVELS OF THE MAJORITY POPULATION. AND THAT EXISTS FOR MANY DIFFERENT REASONS. IT'S NOT JUST BECAUSE` YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A MATTER OF THE TEACHERS AREN'T EFFECTIVE. IT IS A SEGMENT OF KIDS FACING EXTRA CHALLENGES, SUCH AS GOING TO SCHOOLS NOT SET UP TO MEET THEIR EXTRA NEEDS. AND JUST A PREVALENT SET OF MINDSETS AND POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAT UNDERGIRD THIS. SO ULTIMATELY, WE BELIEVE THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM IS TO CULTIVATE LEADERSHIP FORCE OF PEOPLE, WHO WILL WORK AT LEVEL OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, AT EVERY LEVEL OF POLICY AND ACROSS SECTORS, WHO UNDERSTAND THAT AND ARE DEEPLY COMMITTED TO ADDRESSING THAT. SO I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO LOOK AT, ACTUALLY, IS DOES THIS WORK IN THE LONG RUN; DO THESE PEOPLE GO ON AND ACTUALLY EFFECT CHANGE. HERE IN NZ, THE UNIONS ARE THREATENED BY THIS. THEY'RE QUITE CRITICAL OF IT, ABOUT THE WAY THE TEACHERS ARE BROUGHT IN BY THAT. DO YOU ACCEPT THOSE CRITICISMS? I THINK MANY OF THE CRITIQUES OF THESE ORGANISATIONS ARE ROOTED IN A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING. I MEAN, YESTERDAY WE HAD PEOPLE FROM 42 COUNTRIES GROUPED TOGETHER, ALONGSIDE 200 NZERS, AND I THINK ANY OF THE NZERS IN THE ROOM WOULD'VE SAID THE KIND OF VALUES AND VISIONS THAT UNITES EVERYONE ACROSS THIS GLOBAL NETWORK ARE VALUES THAT WE SHARE. AND I THINK NZERS` I MEAN, THE COMMITMENT TO BICULTURALISM AND TO EMPOWERING THE MOST DISENFRANCHISED COMMUNITIES, WAS ON FULL DISPLAY. AND IT WAS SO IMPRESSIVE TO EVERYONE IN OUR COMMUNITY. ANYONE THERE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE CRITIQUE WAS ROOTED IN A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. WE'VE ALSO SET UP THE US-STYLE CHARTER SCHOOLS HERE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? AND DO YOU THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT PLACE FOR TEACHERS TRAINED LIKE THIS TO BE HEADING INTO? I THINK EVERY CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT. ONE THING I WAS GOING TO SAY EARLIER WHEN YOU ASKED ABOUT THE RESULTS IS THAT THE BEST THING TO LOOK AT IS ARE THINGS DIFFERENT IN COMMUNITIES, WHERE, SAY, TEACH FOR AMERICA OR TEACH FIRST IN THE UK HAVE BEEN PLACING TEACHERS FOR 10, 15 YEARS, OR EVEN IN SOME CASES 25 YEARS, AND THE REALITY IS THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT. THERE WAS JUST A STUDY LOOKING AT THE INCREDIBLE PROGRESS OF THE DISADVANTAGED KIDS IN LONDON, WHICH ATTRIBUTED TEACH FIRST WAS ONE OF THE FOUR FACTORS THEY CITED AS CONTRIBUTING TO THE EXTRAORDINARY PROGRESS THERE. AND I THINK WE'RE SEEING VERY SIMILAR RESULTS IN COMMUNITIES IN THE US. AND NOW WHAT'S SO EXCITING IS TO SEE` YOU KNOW, TEACH FOR INDIA STARTED PLACING TEACHERS JUST SIX YEARS AGO, AND YOU CAN ALREADY SEE THE, KIND OF, COMMUNITY-LEVEL IMPACT OF A NEW GENERATION OF LEADERS WHO ARE REALLY WORKING TO CHANGE THINGS IN A FUNDAMENTAL WAY. COOL. THANK YOU FOR THAT, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU, KATIE. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE INVASION OF THE DRONES. IT'S A FUN AND FAST-GROWING HOBBY FOR MANY, BUT THE POTENTIAL DANGERS ARE ALSO HIGH. OUR REPORTER INVESTIGATES, AFTER THE BREAK. Come on. We're gonna be late. Shhh! Uh, what are you wearing? My good-luck jersey. (LAUGHS) Since when? Since always. It's a little tight around the... Maybe don't run it through the hot wash just for a wee while. I would not touch that thing. Trust the jersey. Ladies and gentlemen, who will give me an opening bid? Anyone? Anyone? Interesting. A lot of luck in the room. VOICEOVER: Buying a house takes more than luck. It takes a team effort and a special home loan rate. With ASB, you're backed by our team all the way. 1 WELCOME BACK. FROM THE STUFF OF SCIENCE FICTION, DRONES HAVE BECOME ALMOST AN EVERYDAY TECHNOLOGY FOR MANY KIWIS. CHEAP TO BUY, THE REMOTE-CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT ARE EXPECTED TO BE A POPULAR CHRISTMAS PRESENT THIS YEAR. BUT DRONES ARE ALSO AT THE CENTRE OF A SAFETY DEBATE, AFTER AN AIR NZ PILOT RECENTLY REPORTED A NEAR MISS IN THE SKY OVER CHRISTCHURCH. THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY DOESN'T KNOW WHETHER A DRONE WAS IN THE AIR THAT DAY BUT IS CONCERNED AT THE GROWING NUMBER OF CRAFT TAKING TO OUR SKIES. KIM SAVAGE HAS MORE. WHIRRING MORE AT HOME IN A SCI-FI FILM THAN SUBURBAN UPPER HUTT, AT LEAST RYAN GROVE'S NEIGHBOURS ARE USED TO THE NOISE. COS I HAVE OTHER PLANES AND STUFF, I DON'T FEEL IT'S AN INTRUSION. MAKING OBJECTS FLY HAS BEEN A HOBBY OF RYAN'S FOR DECADES NOW. SO NATURALLY, DRONE WERE NEXT. HE'S EVEN SET UP A BUSINESS TRAINING PEOPLE TO USE THEM. AS A CLUB INSTRUCTOR, I NEED TO ENSURE THAT WHEN SOMEONE COMES TO OUR CLUB THAT THEY ARE GIVEN CORRECT ADVICE, GOOD ADVICE, AND THEY CAN BE TAUGHT HOW TO FLY THE MACHINE SAFELY. WE'RE GETTING A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM THE REAL ESTATE MARKET, FROM ALL TYPES OF PHOTOGRAPHERS COMING INTO THIS HOBBY WITH A COMMERCIAL SENSE, AND WE HAVE TO BRING THEM IN LINE. FROM THE SMALL... THE SPEED AND DEVELOPMENT OF THESE MACHINES, IT'S CHANGING REGULARLY. IT'S FUN TO WATCH THE TECHNOLOGY SHIFT. I'M STILL STAGGERED TO BELIEVE THAT THIS AIRCRAFT HERE ONLY COST ME $250, AND IT CAN FLY AND DO AEROBATICS, FLY INVERTED, AND, UM, OUTFLY ME, MOST OF THE TIME. ...TO THE BIG-BOY TOY. THIS IS A DJI-MANUFACTURED S900. SO STARTING FROM THE TOP OF THE MACHINE, WE'VE GOT WHAT'S A GPS AT THE TOP HERE, WHICH, UM` WHEN IT'S FLYING IN GPS MODE, THIS PICKS UP GPSES AND WILL ACTUALLY HOLD THE MACHINE IN A POSITION, SO THEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY CONCENTRATE ON DOING YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY FROM BELOW. THEN WE MOVE DOWN INTO THE BRAIN OF THE MACHINE, WHICH IS A WORD-COM SYSTEM. BLEEPING IT SOUNDS COMPLICATED. THERE'S TWO THINGS TO DO. GREAT, EXCELLENT. I CAN HANDLE THAT, I THINK. WHIRRING BUT THESE MODERN-DAY MINI AIRCRAFT ARE SO INTELLIGENT, IT'S NOT ACTUALLY AS HARD AS IT LOOKS. FLYING IS ONE THING. KNOWING WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T DO IS ANOTHER. AND THERE'S A LOT ON THE LINE IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG. WE HAD A PILOT IN NZ LAST WEEK, WHO GOT OUT HIS MODEL HELICOPTER AND FLEW THAT, AND DURING THE FLIGHT, THE PORTION OF THE ROTOR CAME OFF, HIT HIM JUST UNDER THE EYE, AND HE'S NOW LOST TOTAL SIGHT IN THAT EYE. REX KENNY IS CIVIL AVIATION'S DRONE MAN. A MODEL PLANE ENTHUSIAST AND DRONE USER HIMSELF, HE'S AN EXPERT ON THE RECENT RULE CHANGES. MAINLY, THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN'T DO INVOLVE OTHER BUSY AIRSPACE OR AERODROMES. IF THEY'RE IN CONTROLLED AIRSPACE, THEY STILL CAN OPERATE THERE, BUT THEY NEED TO HAVE AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL CLEARANCE, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER AIRCRAFT WOULD NEED TO DO. BASICALLY, IF YOUR DRONE IS UNDER 25KG AND YOU WORK WITHIN THE CAA'S RULES, YOU'RE GOOD TO GO. LARGER DRONES OR AIRCRAFT ARE A DIFFERENT STORY. YOU NEED A SPECIAL EXEMPTION UNDER WHAT'S CALLED RULE 102. AND IF THE RISK IS MITIGATED OR REMOVED, THEN THEY CAN BE ALLOWED TO OPERATE UNDER 102 IN ALMOST ANY ACTIVITY THAT YOU CAN THINK OF. BUT IT'S ABOUT REMOVING THE RISK. I DON'T THINK YOU COULD EVER DESIGN A RULE THAT SOMEBODY DIDN'T FEEL WAS TOO TIGHT. AND PERHAPS I COULD ALIGN THAT WITH, YOU KNOW, A CHILD THAT IS GIVEN A VERY SMALL DRONE OR MULTI-ROTOR. IF THEY WERE GIVEN A PUSH BIKE FOR CHRISTMAS, THE PARENTS WOULD BE EXPECTED TO GIVE THEM SOME KNOWLEDGE OF THE ROAD CODE. THERE'S GROWING CONCERN AMONG THOSE FORCED TO SHARE THE AIRSPACE. DAVE REYNOLDS IS WITH THE AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION. UNFORTUNATELY, WITH THE BEST-LAID RULES, UNLESS THERE'S SOME FORM OF LIABILITY, THEN PEOPLE WON'T OBEY THE RULES. AND CURRENTLY, AS THESE DEVICES ARE NOT REGISTERED OR PEOPLE AREN'T ANSWERABLE TO THESE MACHINES, THEY'RE NOT TRACEABLE. THE CAA SAYS IT DID LOOK INTO THE IDEA OF A REGISTER BUT DECIDED IT WASN'T PRACTICAL, GIVEN THE NUMBERS OF USERS INVOLVED. GLOBALLY, BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS, PARTICULARLY IN THE US, WE ARE SEEING, YOU KNOW, A THOUSAND REPORTS, NOT ONLY OF THEM COMING INTO CONTACT WITH AIRCRAFT BUT GETTING VERY VERY CLOSE TO AIRFIELDS. DAVE REYNOLDS IS RIGHT ABOUT THE JUMP IN NUMBERS. ACCORDING TO THE CAA, BACK IN 2007, IT HAD ONLY ONE REPORTED DRONE INCIDENT. SO FAR IN 2015, WE'RE AT 81. NZ'S REGULATOR IS NOT THE ONLY ONE STRUGGLING WITH THIS FAST-GROWING TECHNOLOGY. IN THE UNITED STATES, DRONES ARE READILY AVAILABLE, AND THEY'RE CHEAP. THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION THERE HAS WARNED THERE COULD BE OVER A MILLION DRONES UNDER PEOPLE'S CHRISTMAS TREES THIS YEAR. AND IN FACT, JUST RECENTLY IT'S PROPOSED A US$1.9 MILLION FINE FOR A COMPANY FOR FLYING ILLEGALLY OVER CHICAGO AND NEW YORK. PENALTIES HERE HAVE RANGED FROM WARNING LETTERS TO A $3000 FINE SLAPPED ON SOMEONE WHO FLEW A DRONE OVER A CROWD AT AN ANZAC DAY CEREMONY IN THE DARK WITHOUT CLEARANCE. THERE ARE DEFINITE RISKS, AND THERE'S NO POINT TRYING TO SUGAR-COAT IT. BEN FORMAN OWNS A PRODUCTION COMPANY AND USES DRONES TO FILM SPECTACULAR SCENERY. IF I WERE TO DESCRIBE IT, YOU'VE GOT A CAMERA JIB THAT CAN GO THIS HIGH, AND YOU'VE GOT A HELICOPTER THAT CAN COME THIS LOW, AND THERE'S THIS WHOLE SPACE IN BETWEEN WHICH HAS NEVER REALLY BEEN EXPLORED. BEN RECKONS THE BUZZ ABOUT DRONES WILL SOON DIE DOWN, BUT THEY'LL STILL HAVE THEIR USES. IT'LL BE ANOTHER PART OF SOMEONE'S TOOL KIT, WHETHER IT'S SEARCH AND RESCUE ` YOU'LL HAVE YOUR DOGS, YOU'LL HAVE YOUR PEOPLE, YOU'LL HAVE YOUR DRONE. MOST PEOPLE OVER CHRISTMAS WILL GET A DRONE. THEY'LL FLY IT FOR A WHILE; THEY'LL CRASH IT; THEY MIGHT PUT IT AWAY. I THINK THAT PEOPLE THAT FIND A REAL APPLICATION FOR THEM, THEY'LL DEFINITELY MOVE ON IT. BUT I REALLY DON'T THINK PIZZA DELIVERIES ARE AROUND THE CORNER FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. OK, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR FEEDBACK. ON THE AUSSIES DEPORTING KIWIS POLICY ` BRIAN LANGHAM ASKS... DEZ TINEE POSTED... WAKA HUIA IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM ON ONE. THANK YOU TO OUR PANEL. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS, AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY JESSICA BOELL AND AMY PARK CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015