MORENA. GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. LAST WEEK, IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE DEFENDED HIS POLICY OF BRINGING IN MIGRANT WORKERS TO FILL JOBS, SAYING SOME NZERS ARE SIMPLY NOT UP FOR IT. I'D LOVE A JOB. NO ONE I KNOW IS LAZY. ARE YOUNG PEOPLE TOO LAZY AND ON DRUGS? UM... TODAY, WE'LL DEBATE THE ISSUE WITH A FARM EMPLOYER AND SOME UNION WORKERS WHO DEAL WITH YOUNG PEOPLE. IS THERE ANY TRUTH TO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT CLAIMS? LANDCORP IS OUR BIGGEST FARMER AND 100% STATE OWNED. WHY CEO STEVEN CARDEN SAYS FARMING'S FUTURE IS STILL BRIGHT. WE HAVE A REQUIREMENT FOR 50,000 NEW PEOPLE TO COME INTO THE SECTOR TO MEET ITS GROWTH PLANS OVER THE NEXT 5 YEARS OR SO. AND THEN A FIRST LOOK AT A NEW BOOK ON THE FUTURE OF OUR STRUGGLING REGIONS. IN THE NEXT DECADE OR SO, TWO THIRDS OF OUR SMALLER CENTRES WILL FACE STAGNATION OR DECLINE. IT SOUNDS LIKE A GRIM STORY, BUT PROFESSOR PAUL SPOONLEY IS HERE TO TELL US WHY IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS FROM OTAGO UNIVERSITY, DR DEBORAH RUSSELL, FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE, A SENIOR LECTURER AT MASSEY UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOL OF ACCOUNTANCY, AND BUSINESSMAN SAM STUBBS ` HE HEADS UP A NOT-FOR-PROFIT KIWISAVER, SIMPLICITY. FIRST UP, AND THIS WEEK'S NEWS HEADLINES HAVE BEEN DOMINATED WITH THE STORY OF SCARLETTE, THE YOUNG WOMAN WHO SAYS SHE WAS ASSAULTED BY CHIEFS RUGBY PLAYERS AT AN END OF YEAR EVENT. AFTER AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION CLEARED THE PLAYERS INVOLVED, AN OPEN LETTER SIGNED NOW BY ALMOST 7,000 PEOPLE HAS CALLED ON NZ RUGBY TO WORK TO IMPROVE ITS RELATIONSHIPS WITH WOMEN. WE ASKED LOUISE UPSTON, MINISTER FOR WOMEN'S AFFAIRS, TO APPEAR ON THE PROGRAMME TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE. THE MINISTER IS OVERSEAS. WE HOPE TO SPEAK TO HER ON THE PROGRAMME SOON. THANKS, GREG. A COMMENT BY IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE ON Q+A LAST SUNDAY SPARKED SOME DEBATE THIS WEEK. THE INTERVIEW WAS ABOUT OUR RECORD LEVELS OF NET MIGRATION. WHEN CORIN DANN ASKED HOW THAT MAY BE IMPACTING ON JOBS AND WAGES, MR WOODHOUSE MADE AN INTERESTING REMARK: SO IF THERE'S A SHORTAGE IN LABOURERS, A LOW-SKILLED JOB, EMPLOYERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE AND NZERS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WILL MOVE TO WHERE THE WORK IS. ISN'T THAT HOW THE MARKET WORKS? I THINK WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS PRESUPPOSE THAT MONEY IS THE ONLY BARRIER TO PEOPLE MOVING TO WORK. NOW, WHAT WE KNOW AND WHAT WE'VE SAID AND LISTENED TO EMPLOYERS ABOUT IS THAT THAT IS ONE OF MANY BARRIERS. GEOGRAPHY IS DEFINITELY ONE. SKILLS, ATTITUDE, RECREATIONAL DRUG AND ALCOHOL ALL PREVENT SOME OF OUR YOUNG NZERS FROM GAINING WORK PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY FOLLOWED UP THE NEXT DAY, SAYING THE GOVERNMENT HAD TO BRING IN MIGRANTS TO FILL JOBS BECAUSE MANY YOUNG NZERS HAD A POOR WORK ETHIC OR DRUG PROBLEMS. SO IS THE GOVERNMENT RIGHT? WHENA OWEN CANVASSED SOME VIEWS ON THE STREETS OF WELLINGTON. NO ONE I KNOW IT LAZY. I THINK IMMIGRANTS HAVE GOOD VALUE IN NZ, BUT I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO BRING THEM IN BECAUSE NZERS ARE LAZY. HE IS SAYING THAT PEOPLE ARE` ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T HAVE A GOOD WORK ETHIC, TOO LAZY TO WORK, DRUG PROBLEMS. I'D LOVE A JOB. I'D LOVE A JOB. ONE HIGHER RISK IS WE'VE GOT CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS. DO YOU GO FRUIT PICKING? YES. MY PARENTS USED TO, SO I PROBABLY WILL. YOU PROBABLY WOULD? YEAH. WOULD YOU GO FRUIT PICKING? YEAH. I SUPPOSE THE YOUNGER GENERATION ARE LOOKING AT WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM. SO HE SAYS WE SHOULD BRING IN MORE IMMIGRANTS, COS THEY'RE PREPARED TO DO THE JOBS` YEAH, I KNOW. THEY'RE PREPARED TO DO THE JOBS THAT SOME KIWIS WON'T DO. SO YEAH, HE'S GOT IT RIGHT THERE IN SOME WAYS. # WORK, WORK, WORK, WORK, WORK, WORK, WORK... # I'VE GOT NO ONE TO WATCH MY DOG. THAT'S WHY I'VE GOT NO JOB. SO ONCE UPON A TIME, PEOPLE JUST CAME IN, DID THE WORK, DID WHAT THEY WERE TOLD. THEY WERE MORE, SORT OF, SUBSERVIENT. PEOPLE AREN'T THAT SUBSERVIENT ANY MORE. SO ARE YOU TOO LAZY AND ON DRUGS? UM... TOO LAZY FOR DRUGS, REALLY. IT IS BETTER TO BRING MORE PEOPLE INTO THE COUNTRY. YOU THINK SO? YEAH, IT IS. DO THEY WORK HARDER THAN KIWIS? IT DEPENDS ON THE PEOPLE. SOME, THEY DO. SOME, THEY DON'T. I'M JOINED NOW BY HEW DALRYMPLE. HE'S A FARMER AND VICE-CHAIR OF FEDERATED FARMERS MAIZE AND FORAGE. ALONGSIDE HIM IS TONY STEVENS. HE'S ONE OF THREE CO-CONVENORS OF STAND-UP, THE YOUNG WING OF THE CTU. HE ALSO USED TO RUN THE YOUNG WORKERS RESOURCE CENTRE IN HAMILTON. AND IN DUNEDIN, CALVIN FISHER FROM THE AMALGAMATED WORKERS UNION. Hew, I want to start off with you. you employed up to 30,000 New Zealanders. But you employed foreign workers for seasonal work. The comparison between different crews that work behind a harvesting machines is radically different. The biggest problem With the people who don't want to come to work is the lack of attendance. The foreign work crews will be up to 50 even 100% more productive. They earn very good money and that money is equally available to anyone who was doing this. The local crews ` you might end up with 10 one-day, five the next day. We can't operate that way. So you are saying Kiwis aren't reliable. There are exceptions to the rule. The system is putting people out in that type of work that I want to be there. Calvin, you have put out Kiwis workers to some of these farmers. What has been your experience? What have the farmers preferred ` foreign workers or New Zealanders? It's a mixed bag.. We didn't have such commercial investments previous years. Now we are getting a lot of agricultural harvesting, so it's a changing environment all the time. It's also changing in terms of the conditions these people are offered and how you gather a workforce. We have seen van loads of people behind the machines. Tony, the government coming up and saying they Kiwis are drugged up and too lazy to work ` what is your reaction to that? I'm hugely concerned by that. Yet to think about how young girl workers are receiving a message from our highest office. They are seen as being hopeless and on drugs. It's hard into the labour market as a young worker without having these ingrained negative stereotypes there. Employers have this perception of us. it Is largely untrue there may be pockets of people like that, but to make blanket statements about and higher generations doesn't give us a lot of hope. Hew made the point, there is just a small collection of people. An employer picks and spots the good employees. They'll end up with full-time work. They will be put that into other parts of the industry. The other good workers, not just labouring work, but will move into other jobs. Attitude is a big problem. Sometimes they get paid and you don't see them for three days that is not acceptable when you're trying to harvest fruits. The attitude should be trying to find the Kiwi workers full time work. Seasonal work will always be there for us. It is not the ideal thing for the Kiwi worker to have. We want them in full-time job. That should be our target, not forcing them to do seasonal jobs. Does he have a point here? I want to pick up on Tony's comments. The comments from the Minister I just disgraceful. You have a massive amount of money going into the system. It is now common group of previous groups such as horticulture. Hew is also quite right about permanent position versus seasonal. It is hard to attract young people to seasonal work because they get stood down. The food situation has improved, but it's a situation where if you are not getting results from people taking money from the taxpayers to provide training it's a hell of a situation., it's not just fruit picking. It is bus drivers, trucking. A lot of young Nzers aren't in work. What will they say to this It doesn't feel like a lot of hope out there. With things at the 90 day trial, the Can be fired for no reason. Most of the jobs are minimum wage jobs, sometimes less. Being paid the minimum wage says if I can pay less, I would. It is easier to hire foreign workers for seasonal work? Not at all. Easier to hire Kiwi workers. The money they can make is extraordinary. Some of these workers are taking home $1000 a week. That after all their expenses. That is at the top end, admittedly. They had to work hard for their money, but its persistence in turning up for work. There are schemes going on to try and improve the chances are Kiwi workers to full-time work. In the Hawke's Bay, there is a scheme with local iwi a government organisations, and that the same process in place to get work for these people. It is killing the cultural rights, and some of these issues is too many Kiwis are failing drug tests. They have to turn up for work consistently every drug-free. For these examples here, are they creating a bad perception for everyone? Possibly. I think it's an over generalisation of a workforce. I want to pick up on some of the comments about migrant workers. It's no secret that there is a huge exploitation issue of migrant workers, so they are more attractive to hire. A lot of employers to hire migrant workers in agriculture and the exploit them. These migrant workers are prepared to accept less thanKiwi workers. Calvin, I can see smirking on the camera. What I your thoughts? Tony is right. It is not youth who are accepting these conditions but adult people. If people are getting 1000 nett after-tax, I think we will have a few more Kiwis there. If you divide the hours into the salary, it'll be below the minimum wage. When you make these generalisations, it's interesting historically that used to be the agricultural workers agreement. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA, YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50 CENTS. WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK, AND CORIN DANN CATCHES UP WITH THE CEO OF NZ'S BIGGEST FARM, THE STATE OWNED LANDCORP. DOES HE THINK YOUNG KIWIS WANT TO WORK ON THE FARM? THEY DON'T EXPECT TO DO UNUSUALLY LONG HOURS. THEY EXPECT TO WORK IN FARM ENVIRONMENTS THAT LOOK AFTER THE ENVIRONMENT. THEY WANT TO HAVE ACCESS TO GOOD TECHNOLOGY AND BE CONNECTED THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA. LANDCORP IS OUR BIGGEST CORPORATE FARMER, WITH 140 FARMS AROUND THE COUNTRY. IT'S STATE OWNED, BUT LIKE OTHER BUSINESSES INVOLVED IN DAIRY, IT'S HAD A TOUGH YEAR, POSTING A $9.4M LOSS IN THE YEAR TO JUNE. CHIEF EXECUTIVE STEVE CARDEN SAT DOWN WITH POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN TO TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE FOR THE DAIRY BUSINESS. CORIN BEGAN BY ASKING WHETHER THE SOE WAS HAVING TROUBLE FINDING KIWIS WILLING TO WORK ON THE FARM. THE FARMING SECTOR IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COMING INTO FARMING, IN PARTICULAR. FARMING'S BECOMING MUCH MORE COMPLEX, MUCH MORE TECHNOLOGY-DRIVEN AND DATA-DRIVEN THAN IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST. SO NATURALLY WHAT IT TAKES TO BE A SUCCESSFUL FARMER IS CHANGING QUITE QUICKLY, AND WE ARE CONCERNED THERE AREN'T THE RIGHT NUMBER OF SKILLED NZERS COMING THROUGH FOR THOSE ROLES. SO IT COULD BE A PROBLEM IN THE FUTURE? IF THE TRAINING ISN'T DONE, YOU WOULD NEED TO LOOK OFFSHORE MORE. SO SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE IN THAT TRAINING AREA. CORRECT. I MEAN, WE HAVE A REQUIREMENT FOR, I THINK, 50,000 NEW PEOPLE TO COME INTO THE SECTOR TO MEET ITS GROWTH PLANS IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS OR SO. SO CLEARLY THAT PUTS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES TO PRODUCE PEOPLE WITH THE SKILLS WE NEED TO FARM WHAT ARE VERY COMPLEX BUSINESSES AS FARMS. AND YOU COME BACK TO THAT POINT ABOUT WHAT IT IS TO BE A FARMER THE BRANDING, YOUR BRAND BUT I GUESS THE ATTRACTION FOR YOUNG NZERS. HOW DO YOU GET THAT RIGHT? WELL, I THINK YOUNG NZERS EXPECT DIFFERENT WORK CONDITIONS AND DIFFERENT OUTCOMES FROM THEIR EMPLOYMENT THAN THOSE IN THE PAST. MANY WON'T BE IN FARMING FOREVER. THEY'RE COMING INTO FARMING, AND THEY EXPECT TO BE KEPT SAFE, AND THEY DON'T EXPECT TO DO UNUSUALLY LONG HOURS; THEY EXPECT TO WORK IN FARM ENVIRONMENTS THAT LOOK AFTER THE ENVIRONMENT; THEY WANT TO HAVE ACCESS TO GOOD TECHNOLOGY AND BE CONNECTED THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, WHICH IS OFTEN DIFFICULT IN RURAL SETTINGS. SO THEIR EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO AS AN EMPLOYER CONTINUE TO LIFT, AND THAT REQUIRES US TO LIFT OUR GAME, AS A RESULT. SO YOU NEED TO PROVIDE THEM WITH WI-FI AND THINGS LIKE THAT, DON'T YOU? YEAH, CORRECT. THEY'RE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THE ENTIRE TIME. THEY WANT TO BE ON FACEBOOK. IN FACT, THEY USE FACEBOOK AS A WORK TOOL NOW. SO WE NEED TO BE INVESTING IN OUR BROADBAND AND BANDWIDTH FOR STAFF SO THEY'RE CONNECTED. AND DO YOU COME ACROSS ANY ISSUES WITH ATTITUDE IN TERMS OF KIWI WORKERS? NO, NOT AT ALL. IN FACT PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO FARMING, I THINK, HAVE A PASSION FOR FARMING. IT'S NOT AN EASY JOB. IT REQUIRES YOU TO BE VERY COMMITTED TO DO QUITE LONG HOURS AT TIMES. YOU'RE UP AT 3AM IN THE MORNING TO MILK, IF YOU'RE ON A DAIRY FARM. BUT PEOPLE LOVE WHAT WE'RE ABOUT. THEY LOVE WHERE WE'RE GOING AS A COMPANY, AND I THINK THEY'RE VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT DOING SOMETHING THAT'S VERY MEANINGFUL FOR THEM FOR THIS COUNTRY. LOOKING AT WHERE YOU ARE, YOU'RE A MASSIVE OPERATION 140 FARMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY PRETTY MUCH THE BIGGEST OPERATOR IN THE COUNTRY. BUT YOU HAVE CUT BACK QUITE A BIT IN DAIRY SINCE THE SLUMP IN PRICES. SO, WHAT ABOUT 55,000 COWS? NOW, THAT WOULD BE QUITE A REDUCTION IN WHERE YOU WERE. WHY THE SUDDEN PULL BACK? WELL, IT'S NOT SO MUCH A REDUCTION IN THE NUMBER OF COWS THAT WE HAVE, BUT WE'RE JUST CHOOSING TO NOT DO AS MANY NEW CONVERSIONS OF DAIRY FARMS AS WE HAD PLANNED TO DO. I THINK, LIKE A LOT OF NZERS, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT OF EXTENSIVE DAIRYING AND HAVE TAKEN A MOVE AS OUR STRATEGY TO SHIFT AWAY FROM BEING EXPOSED TO MARGINAL CONVERSIONS, WHICH ALSO GIVE US LOTS OF EXPOSURE TO COMMODITY MILK, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE'RE PRODUCING. WAS IT THE ENVIRONMENT OR WAS IT THE FACT THAT THE MILK PRICES COLLAPSED THAT YOU HAD NO CHOICE, REALLY? NO, THIS HAD BEEN ON THE CARDS FOR A FEW YEARS. IN FACT, WE MADE THIS DECISION WHEN THE MILK PRICES WERE AT $8.40. WE JUST WEREN'T SEEING EITHER THE LONG-TERM RETURNS COMING OFF THOSE CONVERSIONS OR THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENTAL METRICS COMING OUT OF THOSE FARMS, AND WE WERE QUITE KEEN TO RE-ALLOCATE OUR STRATEGY TOWARDS MORE VALUE-ADDED PRODUCTS OVER TIME. I MEAN, IT'S BEEN PICKED OVER A FAIR BIT, THE REALITY WAS LANDCORP GOT LOCKED INTO SOME MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CONVERSIONS IN THE WAIRAKEI AREA AROUND TAUPO. WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE? YOU'RE STILL STUCK HAVING TO DO THESE CONVERSIONS 40-YEAR CONTRACT, WASN'T IT? IT'S A 45-YEAR LEASE, AND WE ARE NOT PUTTING AS MANY DAIRY FARMS ON TO THAT LEASE AS WE HAD ORIGINALLY PLANNED. WE'RE GOING TO DO ABOUT HALF THE NUMBER THAT WE'D ORIGINALLY PLANNED AND ARE LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVE USES OF THAT LAND, WHICH WE THINK ARE BOTH ECONOMICALLY MORE VIABLE AND ENVIRONMENTALLY MORE SUITABLE. THAT'S INTERESTING. DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE PEAK FOR DAIRY IN NZ? PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT INTENSIFICATION; YES, THE PRICE SLUMPED, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT MAYBE NZ HAS REACHED A PEAK IN TERMS OF THAT CONVERSION RUSH THAT WAS ON? MM. WELL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT LANDCORP AND WE FARM THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY WE ARE LOOKING AT ALL OF OUR LAND PORTFOLIO AND THINKING, 'WHAT IS THE RIGHT LAND USE FOR IT?' AND I THINK WHAT WE'VE FOUND IS THAT WE CAN'T REALLY FIND DAIRYING AS THE JUSTIFIED NEW ADDITIONAL LAND-USE CONVERSION OPTION. SO WE ARE LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVES. I THINK NZ CAN SUSTAIN A FEW MORE COWS, SO LONG AS THERE ARE THE FARM SYSTEMS SET UP TO DO THAT. SO PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT HERD HOMES AND OTHER FARM INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH WOULD REQUIRE US TO FARM QUITE DIFFERENTLY BUT ALLOW US TO PRODUCE MORE MILK. HAVING SAID THAT, THAT'S NOT OUR FUTURE, I DON'T THINK, AS A PRIMARY-SECTOR COUNTRY, TO JUST PRODUCE MORE OF A COMMODITY PRODUCT LIKE MILK, NECESSARILY. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THINGS LIKE THE RUATANIWHA DAM, FOR MORE WATER STORAGE, FOR MORE INTENSIFICATION? ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT'S MARGINAL? WELL, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE A VERY HIGH THRESHOLD NOW FOR WHAT A SUITABLE USE OF LAND IS, GIVEN THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT THAT PEOPLE EXPECT FROM THAT LAND USE. CLEARLY WE NEED TO USE OUR RESOURCES VERY EFFECTIVELY, AND WATER IS A SCARCE RESOURCE GLOBALLY THAT WE HAVE AN ABUNDANCE OF. SO IRRIGATION SCHEMES DO MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, BUT I THINK THE ENVIRONMENTAL THRESHOLD'S QUITE HIGH NOW TO JUSTIFY. AND IT'S NOT JUST THE ENVIRONMENTAL THRESHOLD; THE PUBLIC THRESHOLD HAS RISEN, HASN'T IT? DO YOU GET A SENSE THAT THE PUBLIC IS BECOMING, OBVIOUSLY WITH HAVELOCK NORTH, MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WATER QUALITY. AND RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, THEY'RE POINTING THE FINGER AT AGRICULTURE, INTENSIFICATION OF FARMING AS AN ISSUE. DO FARMERS, WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT, HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THAT? I THINK ALL FARMERS ARE VERY AWARE OF THE ISSUES AND ARE WANTING TO DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE ENVIRONMENT, AND CERTAINLY AT LANDCORP THAT'S A CORE PART OF OUR STRATEGY. WE RECOGNISE THAT CONSUMERS HAVE DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS NOW ABOUT NOT ONLY HOW THEIR FOOD TASTES BUT ALSO HOW IT'S PRODUCED, AND WE NEED TO BE SHOWING THEM THAT WE CAN PRODUCE THEIR FOOD IN A REALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE WAY. FARMERS ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL FARM BY FARM MAY FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS, BUT COLLECTIVELY IT CAN CREATE PROBLEMS AROUND NITROGEN RUN-OFF IF YOU'VE GOT LOTS AND LOTS OF DAIRY FARMING. YOU AS A BIG PLAYER, WHAT CAN YOU DO TO LEAD AND I GUESS CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE GOT TO BE MORE CONSCIOUS ABOUT THAT INTENSIFICATION AND THE NITROGEN RUN-OFF AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, COWS IN THE STREAMS? WELL, I SUPPOSE WHAT WE CAN DO IS LEAD BY EXAMPLE AND MAKE SURE THAT OUR FARMS ARE AS CLEAN AS POSSIBLE, SO WE HAVE A BIG RIPARIAN PLANTING PROGRAMME UNDERWAY, LIKE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY DOES. WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT LAND USE, SO TAKING VERY INTENSIVE LAND USES AWAY FROM LAND WHICH ISN'T SUITABLE. WE'RE LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN APPLY OUR INPUTS, LIKE FERTILISER, IN MUCH MORE PRECISE PLACES SO THERE'S LESS RUN-OFF AND LESS WASTAGE. SO WE'RE EMPLOYING A WHOLE LOT OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO ENSURE WE HAVE THE MOST ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE FARMS. CORIN WHAT ABOUT CROPS? WILL YOU LOOK AT CROPS AS OPPOSED TO JUST LIVESTOCK? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. IT'S A NEW SHIFT FOR OUR ORGANISATION TO START LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVE LAND USES OUTSIDE OF TRADITIONAL PASTORAL ANIMAL LAND USES. WE'VE GOT A SHEEP MILK BUSINESS UNDERWAY, WE'RE LOOKING AT DEER MILK, AND NOW WE'RE STARTING TO LOOK AT MORE PLANT-BASED PROTEINS AS AN ALTERNATIVE. YOU'VE PUT QUITE A BIG FOCUS SINCE YOU'VE COME IN ON THE BRANDED VALUE-ADDED SIDE OF THE BUSINESS. YOU'VE GOT THE NEW MEAT BRAND. AS A WHOLE, HAS AGRICULTURE SUFFERED IN NZ BECAUSE OF A LACK OF THAT AND DO COMPANIES LIKE FONTERRA NEED TO LIFT THEIR GAME WITH THE VALUE-ADDED? WELL, I THINK FOR 150 YEARS NZ'S BEEN GREAT AT PRODUCING LOTS OF MEAT AND MILK OFF THE HECTARES UNDER FARM. BUT WHAT WE'RE FINDING NOW IS WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO JUST HAVE THAT AS OUR PRIMARY STRATEGY. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN EXTRACT MORE VALUE FROM OUR PRODUCTS. AND THAT MEANS DIFFERENTIATING OUR PRODUCTS IN A WAY THAT CONSUMERS OFFSHORE ARE PREPARED TO PAY MORE FOR, SO THAT'S NEW PRODUCTS AND ALSO FINDING ALTERNATIVE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN PRODUCE EXISTING COMMODITIES LIKE MILK, SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ORGANICS OR GRASS-FED PROGRAMMES OR ANTIBIOTIC-FREE MILK THAT DOES ATTRACT A PREMIUM OFFSHORE FOR THOSE PARTICULAR CONSUMERS. JUST VERY QUICKLY ON YOUR RESULT AN OPERATING LOSS OF AROUND $9M. ON AN ASSET OF $1.7B, I GUESS YOU COULD SEE WHY THE GOVERNMENT, I THINK, HAS SAID THINGS LIKE DISAPPOINTING ABOUT WHERE LANDCORP IS AT AT THE MOMENT. WHY CAN'T YOU, SORT OF, DRIVE A BIGGER RESULT OFF AN ASSET THAT BIG? WELL, WE HAD A $30 MILLION PROFIT TWO YEARS BEFORE THAT WAS BASED ON A HIGH MILK PRICE. I THINK THE FRUSTRATION IN FARMING IS IT'S A CAPITAL-GAINS BUSINESS, CAPITAL GROWTH, SO THE UNDERLYING VALUE OF THE FARMS INCREASES, AND THAT'S HOW FARMERS MAKE MOST OF THEIR MONEY. AND IF YOU LOOK AT LANDCORP'S ASSETS OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, WE'VE HAD A 9.5% RETURN YEAR ON YEAR, PLUS PAID $500M WORTH OF DIVIDENDS BACK TO THE NZ PEOPLE, WHICH IS A FANTASTIC RESULT IN ANY BUSINESS. BUT YEAR ON YEAR WHEN YOU'RE EXPOSED TO COMMODITIES IN FARMING, YOU GET YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE A LOT OF MONEY AND YEARS YOU DON'T MAKE MUCH MONEY. THAT IS UNFORTUNATELY THE SHIFT WE WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE IN OUR STRATEGY TO GET AWAY FROM IT. SO WHAT'S THE BIT THAT MAKES IT WORTHWHILE KEEPING LANDCORP? BECAUSE IF YOU'RE JUST MAKING THAT RETURN AND HOLDING THAT ASSET, WHAT'S THE BENEFIT FOR THE GOVERNMENT? WHERE'S THE ADDED VALUE IN OWNING THIS? WELL, I THINK THE ADDED VALUE IS THAT LANDCORP AT THIS SCALE THAT WE FARM IS ABLE TO INNOVATE IN A LOT OF AREAS THAT OTHERS CAN'T. SO IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING AROUND DEVELOPMENT OF NEW PRODUCTS LIKE THE SHEEP MILK AND THE DEER MILK OPPORTUNITIES, THE NEW FARM SYSTEMS AND INNOVATIONS THAT WE'RE DEVELOPING, THE NEW ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS THAT WE'RE ROLLING OUT, BIG INVESTMENT IN SAFETY PROGRAMMES, ALL OF THESE BECOME OVER TIME AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL FARMING PUBLIC. IT IS VERY HARD FOR INDIVIDUAL FARMERS, EVEN COLLECTIVELY, TO GENERATE THOSE INNOVATIONS WITHOUT THE SCALE THAT LANDCORP HAS. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS; DR DEBORAH RUSSELL, FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE, A SENIOR LECTURER AT MASSEY UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOL OF ACCOUNTANCY. AND BUSINESSMAN SAM STUBBS. HE HEADS UP A NOT-FOR-PROFIT KIWISAVER, SIMPLICITY. Deborah, what the Federated farmers chat and the union guys have to say about the attitudes of New Zealand workers. I can understand the frustrations of employers trying to get a good workforce. We know we need really good Internet out to a rural sectors. Farm work is hard. It takes a lot to get in 18 or 19-year-old to learn how to do that. There is a lot of training that employers need to do before they are work ready. I want to see employers spend a lot of time on gamers people integrated into the workforce. Sam, what you make of what they have to say about workers? the older generation has always moanEd about the younger generation. I'm older than I look. Its a tension. People will always want to employ people for less. I think a lot of this labour which comes from overseas is is part of our aid budget. I think yet overlay that in. There's always going to be a tension. Back in the 80s, I grew up in Te Puke. If you had immigrant workers working in the packing shed orpruning, it was a rarity. now it's a rarity if you have local workers. what has changed? Is an increasing split between provinces and the cities, and the provinces have changed a lot. there is a big divide with cosmopolitans and elites. It's going to be impacting on politics quite significantly. It was a good class struggle ` employers and employees have quite different perspectives. This is a left-right arguments. We should be a wee bit sceptical about the facts now put forward, just as we should about what John key is saying. He is saying that these workers are lazy and low skilled. I think he, along with Bill English and Michael Woodhouse, is trying to put a new spin numbers to disparage lower-income workers. Immigration is high, and the government is not going to change that. This was that what you're saying before, Sam. Tony Stephens, the young guy, said that this will upset younger workers. Wouldn't that light a fire under them to say they will prove you wrong? Some might, but I think kids are coming into our business have a different mindset. They are not interested in the hours will pay. They want to be effective. They have a lot more mobility than the previous generation had. They have quite a lot of choice. They would choose something that is meaningful. That's the problem with agricultural workers. There is a generation of people who see a big wide world out there and don't want to sit behind a harvester. That's why you're so many people from the islands wanting to do this work. They are thinking of the money. One of the recent stories this that an employer was upset that his worker didn't want to work on the weekends. I don't want to work weekeneds either. There is a generation now wants 24-hour access to social media, but weekends are still sacred. That might jar with some employers. That a worker had already worked a full week and his employer was expecting more. We have to have a reasonable balance. I have no problems with young worker saying they want time off and a decent wage. Immigration will be a battlefield the next election. Turning the taps off will be a big thing in the next election. Employers will have to pay better wages, better conditions. This is a subsidy for employers having a lot of seasonal workers from other countries. This is a subsidy for the Islands as well. We have to talk to a columnist about the patterns. Is Landcorp something the government has to hold on to? It's a cyclical business.. does the government want to own it? I think he had a think about what your basic philosophy is. If you wanted to innovate in farming, they could be the party that brings scale. A two sided coin. If you invest the scale, sometimes goes wrong. I'm agnostic about whether the government should own it. We had to make it a sustainable and smooth business rather than a cyclical one. NEXT UP - A FIRST LOOK AT DEMOGRAPHER PAUL SPOONLEY'S NEW BOOK ` 'REBOOTING THE REGIONS'. HE'S TALKING ABOUT OUR SMALL RURAL TOWNS, MANY OF WHICH ARE FACING A DWINDLING POPULATION AND ECONOMIC DECLINE. CAN OUR ZOMBIE TOWNS BE REVIVED? THAT'S NEXT. ANXIETY ABOUT THE FATE OF OUR REGIONS LOOKS SET TO BECOME A KEY POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE LEAD-UP TO NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION. NZ FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS, WHO MANY PREDICT WILL BE KINGMAKER ON ELECTION NIGHT, HAS BEEN ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING IN THE HEARTLANDS, PROMISING POLICIES TO REVIVE REGIONAL ECONOMIES. AND JUST RECENTLY, LABOUR PROMISED A FREE UNIVERSITY EDUCATION FOR GRADUATES WHO COMMIT TO A PUBLIC SERVICE JOB IN THE REGIONS. MY NEXT GUEST SAYS IN MANY CASES, DECLINE IS UNAVOIDABLE, BUT THERE COULD BE A SILVER LINING TOO. DEMOGRAPHER PROFESSOR PAUL SPOONLEY JOINS ME NOW. Thank you for being with me this morning. I want to start off by asking you in the regions, sometimes decline is inevitable. It sounds like bad news. Is this? It is if we don't deal with it. The bad news is we are facing an uncertain future. There is an upside. We're back in the queue. Many other countries are facing structural agent. There are things we can do. Is that changing? We just heard from the panel that a lot of young people move away and don't come back. That's the old tomography. That's always happened. You move away for a job. So why would you go back and there are no jobs there? That's a major issue. And many of these issues, they are spacing structural ageing. The present some very interesting challenges. You talking book about the silver economy. What you mean by that? We tend to use a half full, half empty when it comes to over 65's. The regions have a lot of over 65 centre. The third of a region is aged over 65, where is your dementia care ? That is the half empty. But if you look at the half full, these people often have money to invest and experience. If I could just add what our age friendly policies looking like? How we doing on that? We are now well behind the eight ball. In the Netherlands, for example, if you provide aged care, you also required to provide a kindergarten so that you get that into mixing of generations. In some areas, the hospitals and schools are closing down. That must be crippling. Are you saying that we need to replace these? I am. You had to divert resources to the older groups. He will also have to think about younger groups. You are seeing a reprioritisation of funding, and tipping points. In schools, there aren't enough kids there for a local school to stay open. A lot of policies from New Zealand first and Labour as saying if you can stand the region, we will give you a student loan will help you stay there. Would you think of this? Sometimes the policies are under Cox. What are we doing about populations in the regions? That has various dimensions to it. Yes, immigration is part of the answer to boosting the population in the regions. But if we defaults to immigration, that is a problem. Population as a major policy issue for us in New Zealand. Do you think that there should be more drawing immigration to the regions? Yes, that is part of the solution. Population decline means that regions once the population growth. How do you move people into those regions? Immigration is part of the answer. They bring not only jobseekers, but also demand- possibly- businesses the other thing is that regions don't do enough to attract and settled immigrants. My challenge to many regions around New Zealand is what does your immigration policy look like? The government has a role to play, but so did the regions themselves. In Southland, half of the dairy workers are Filipino. If you go to Gore, in the schools, a lot of the school population is Philippine. What you need to be as be welcoming. You need to be clear about what jobs exist and regions. And you need to realise that immigrants do like your own food, they do speak a different language, and they will give a very different feel to your community. Make that a positive. You have used the example of Taranaki before. The demographic challenge that we're seeing at the moment as a very significant additional dimension. Those regions will die in a population and economic sense. Do we let that happen? Government realises that that is an issue. THANKS, JESS. LOTS TO TALK ABOUT WITH THE PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. LET'S BRING BACK OUR PANEL. Do you agree with what Spoonley said? There is not a single region that will shrink and economic size over the future. I think most regions will actually do very well in the future. They will need to make a choice about what they want to stand for. They will have to decide what they want to do to attract people and businesses. There are a lot of assets and those regions. They have broadband and underutilised schools, etc. If they work out how to attract young people, they will do well. Before every election, we hear that the regions will be the focus but they never are. Prof spoon leaves interview as a reminder why we need to take regions seriously. People died, and politicians don't. They say that they are focused on regions, but they only focused on the next poll. We have just had politicians and Northland promising to upgrade bridges and Northland. They're not thinking about 10 years ahead, because they will not be around. Politicians do not really care about the problems that spindly has been talking about. We need politicians that are less focused on opinion polls and more focused on regional economic growth strategies. And glad you brought up Northland. That is a region that definitely needs help. There has to be a prime example of what professors Bradley is talking about. I would have thought so. Northland should be a good place to live, because the weather is nice and the beach is a beautiful. It is interesting to think about what local government should do there. There is a terrific example from one city, they work very actively with kids and businesses and education providers to help them to understand what jobs and careers are available in the region. The aim is to help them pick up jobs to keep them in that Manawatu region. It is about finding ways to make the region attractive. Picking about Auckland growing, and the rest of the country not growing so quickly. Will house prices be corrected by that? But getting harder and harder to bring up a family in the traditional sense in Auckland, so more people are thinking about moving out. One of the great tragedies in this country is that we have a lot of old people who want to have dignity in their retirement, and in a lot of unparented kids. Once you start making those factors, you start attracting people. One factor would be having hospital. Yes, you need one good school or one good hospital. You need a critical mass for that. But once that is in place, other things start happening. It is getting And Tawhai to live in Auckland, because of house prices. The technology to be able to work from the beach is all here, but we're not using it. Why not? Politicians are too much focus on the short-term. They need to be more focused on using technology. It should be focused on infrastructure, but instead a run down infrastructure. Really, it is work that will drive the use of technology in these industries. 40 to 50% of our current jobs are going to disappear in the coming years. You will have to think about working from home and working from the regions - this could be a boost for the regions. Aucklander is not going to be it. Thinking about house prices outside of the main centre, that has to be aattractive, surely? T I was in Taumarunui. They used to have a pretty well functioning hospital. That closed down 1819 years ago. And when that happened, the town began this attractive. Deborah is right. There are a lot of people moaning about infrastructure, but for a country with such a small population, we have amazing infrastructure. We need to think about what we can do with what we have got, rather than complaining. The richest places to live are aware there is the oldest demographic - like Silicon Valley. Someone has to start that. If politicians are just looking at it in terms of election cycles, it's not going to be from central government. You are right. It is not the central government issue. This is about regions deciding what they want. When we went to London, we went because there were other Kiwis living here. If you create a community that welcomes Filipinos, for example, Filipinos will come. People need to feel comfortable, then they will migrate. If you think about that demographically this will be a great place to retire, then that will happen. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE LOOK BACK TO WHEN THE CLOTHING INDUSTRY BOOMED IN NZ. PROTECTED BY TARIFFS, MANUFACTURERS SET UP FACTORIES IN SMALL TOWNS YOUR FEEDBACK NOW. FOLLOWING ON FROM OUR INTERVIEW ABOUT REBOOTING THE REGIONS, IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK BACK TO THE '50S WHEN MANY MANUFACTURERS HAD A POLICY OF OPENING UP FACTORIES IN SMALL TOWNS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE LOCAL WORKFORCE AND EASY LINKS TO BIGGER CENTRES. HERE'S A 1958 PICTORIAL PARADE LOOKING AT THE EXPANSION OF THE CLOTHING INDUSTRY IN LEVIN. LEVIN'S HANDINESS TO THE RAIL IS ATTRACTING INDUSTRY. THIS IS HAPPENING WITH MANY OF NZ'S SMALL TOWNS. UPBEAT MUSIC DAY AND NIGHT, FULLY FASHIONED NYLON STOCKINGS ARE BEING WOVEN ON THESE CLATTERING MACHINES. BY MOVING OUT OF THE BIG CITIES, THE FACTORIES AVOID HIGH COSTS AND LABOUR SHORTAGE. WHEN WORK'S NEAR HOME, WORKERS STAY LONGER AND FEEL SETTLED. AN UP TO DATE KNITTING FACTORY IN LEVIN TURNS OUT 30,000 WOOLLEN GARMENTS A YEAR. ONCE GIRLS STAYED HOME TO KNIT AND DAD DIDN'T GET HIS PULLOVER FOR SIX MONTHS. TWO SHIRT FACTORIES IN LEVIN ARE WORKING AT CAPACITY. THIS SIMPLE SAW CUTS OUT 500 SHIRTS AT ONCE. 500 SHIRTS AND ONE FINGER, IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. HERE'S HOW NYLON BRISTLES ARE POPPED INTO YOUR TOOTHBRUSH. BESIDES TOOTHBRUSHES, THIS FACTORY MAKES BROOMS AND VACUUM BRUSHES. WHILE MOST MACHINES ARE IMPORTED, IT WAS THE PRODUCTION ENGINEER AT LEVIN WHO BUILT THIS AUTOMATIC BRUSH BENDER. BRUSHES AND BROOMS, PULLOVERS AND CARDIGANS, PYJAMAS AND SHIRTS AND NYLON STOCKINGS ` ALL PRODUCTS OF THRIVING INDUSTRY IN SMALL TOWNS. WAKA HUIA IS NEXT. REMEMBER Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. AND MAKE SURE YOU CATCH THE NEWS AT 6 ` THERE'S A NEW ONE NEWS COLMAR BRUNTON POLITICAL POLL. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND PHILIP MCKIBBIN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR.