CAPTIONS BY SHRUTIKA GUNANAYAGAM AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017. MORENA, GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. OUR LEAD STORY TODAY ` COULD WEST COAST NATIVE FORESTS BECOME AN ENVIRONMENTAL BATTLEGROUND AGAIN? THE COUNCIL SEEKING A MANDATE TO HARVEST ON PUBLIC LAND. IF THERE'S A CASE TO SUSTAINABLY MILL THAT TIMBER, WHY NOT DO IT? THEN JESSICA MUTCH INTERVIEWS MURRAY MCCULLY, AS HE FINISHES UP HIS TIME AS FOREIGN MINISTER ` HIS TAKE ON TRUMP, THE SAUDI SHEEP FARM SCANDAL AND ISRAEL'S REACTION TO OUR STRONG STAND AGAINST THEM AT THE UN. ALL I'D SAY IS THAT I WAS LEFT IN NO DOUBT ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S FEELINGS. AND 100 DAYS OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP. JUST IN CASE ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTION, THE WALL IS GOING TO GET BUILT. SO WHAT HAS HE ACHIEVED? OUR US CORRESPONDENT REBECCA WRIGHT IS IN PENNSYLVANIA FOR TRUMP'S CELEBRATION RALLY. AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` DR CLAIRE ROBINSON, POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND PRO VICE-CHANCELLOR OF THE COLLEGE OF CREATIVE ARTS AT MASSEY UNIVERSITY; DR RUSSEL NORMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF GREENPEACE NZ AND FORMER GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER; AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF BUSINESS FOR NZME. ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE IN DISBELIEF THAT, 20 YEARS SINCE NATIVE LOGGING ON CROWN LAND WAS STOPPED, THE INDUSTRY LOOKS TO BE CRANKING UP AGAIN ON THE WEST COAST, THIS TIME ON COUNCIL LAND. A TIMBER COMPANY WANTS TO SUSTAINABLY HARVEST NATIVE TREES FROM A BLOCK OF LAND OWNED BY THE GREY DISTRICT COUNCIL. THE COUNCIL IS OPEN TO THE IDEA AND WANTS TO KNOW WHAT RATEPAYERS THINK ABOUT HARVESTING FROM OTHER COUNCIL BLOCKS AS WELL. WHENA OWEN REPORTS. (MELLOW ELECTRONIC MUSIC) MAN: IF THERE'S A CASE TO SUSTAINABLY MILL THAT TIMBER, WHY NOT DO IT? MAN: WE VALUE AND WE TREASURE OUR FORESTS, AND WE WANNA USE THEM; THAT'S THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. MAN: WE THINK THAT WE CAN TAKE A YIELD OUTTA HERE AND BE PRODUCTIVE AND CREATE JOBS AND INCOME. MAN: AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY, WE NEED ANCIENT RAINFORESTS MORE THAN WE EVER HAVE, SO IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS. THE HELI-LOGGERS CAME IN AT ABOUT 9 O'CLOCK. 20 YEARS AGO DEAN BAIGENT-MERCER WAS INVOLVED WITH THE TIMBERLANDS PROTESTS, WHICH EVENTUALLY LEAD TO THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT HALTING ALL NATIVE MILLING ON CROWN LAND. (CHEERING) THE PROPOSAL FEELS LIKE A SLAP IN THE FACE AFTER WE'VE STOPPED THE LOGGING AND THE WEST COAST GOT A REALLY SIZEABLE DEVELOPMENT PACKAGE OUT OF IT. WHY GO BACK TO TIMBER? WE WERE GIVEN $120M FROM THE GOVERNMENT NOT TO LOG ON CROWN LAND. THIS TIME ROUND, IT'S ONLY COUNCIL LAND, SO WE ARE JUST HAVIN' A CONSULTATION PERIOD WITH THE PUBLIC SAYIN', 'DO YOU WANT US TO SUSTAINABLY LOG THESE FORESTS?' BECAUSE WE'VE HAD AN APPLICATION FROM A PARTICULAR COMPANY FROM REEFTON. (PENSIVE MUSIC) SO, THIS IS THE GREY RIVER, AND OVER HERE ARE THE REMAINS OF THE HISTORIC BRUNNER MINE. OVERLOOKING THE MINE IS MT SEWELL, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE BLOCKS THAT THE COUNCIL SAYS FORESTERS MAY BE INTERESTED IN HARVESTING. ALONG WITH MT SEWELL, ALONG WITH MT SEWELL, CASHMERE BAY ON LAKE BRUNNER IS UP FOR LOGGING CONSIDERATION, AND SO IS THE 800HA BLOCK MT BUCKLEY, NEAR DOBSON. AT THE MOMENT, WE'VE EXPRESSED INTEREST IN THIS BLOCK. THAT'S ALL I'LL SAY. FORESTER JON DRONFELD WORKS FOR THE REEFTON COMPANY WHICH HAS APPLIED TO SUSTAINABLY LOG MT BUCKLEY. SO WE KNOW THERE'S SOME LAND HERE THE COUNCIL OWN. IT'S UNENCUMBERED BY CONSERVATION STATUS. WE'VE SIMPLY SAID, 'ARE YOU INTERESTED IN 'APPLYING LEGAL, SUSTAINABLE MANAGEMENT PRINCIPLES TO THAT LAND 'IN RETURN FOR SOME REVENUE?' REVENUE TO COUNCIL UP TO $100,000 A YEAR. WE NEED TO GET OPPORTUNITIES HERE ON THE WEST COAST, YOU KNOW? AT THE END OF THE DAY, ALL OF THESE TREES THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS WANT TO JUST FALL ON TO THE FOREST FLOOR AND ROT AWAY. I ASK THEM ` WELL, IS IT NOW ONE WHERE THE CONSIDERATION GOES MORE TO THE HUHU GRUBS THAN THE HUMANS BEINGS THAT LIVE ON THE WEST COAST? SO WE'RE NOT TALKIN' ABOUT GOIN' IN WITH A CHAINSAW AND JUST CUTTIN' OUT A HEALTHY TREE THAT LIVES FOR 400, 500 YEARS. IT'S AT THE END OF ITS USEFUL LIFE. RATHER THAN FALL ON TO THE FLOOR, WE WOULD ACTUALLY USE IT TO MAKE FURNITURE. (ENGINE RUMBLES, ROTORS WHIRR) THE REEFTON COMPANY, NEW ZEALAND SUSTAINABLE FOREST PRODUCTS, HAS LIFTED 80% OF NATIVE TIMBER TAKEN FROM DOC LAND UNDER THE CYCLONE ITA WIND-THROWN ACT. NOW THAT'S DRYING UP. IT WORKS MAINLY WITH BEECH AND RIMU AND EMPLOYS 35 LOCALS, AND IT'S OFFSHORE-OWNED. THE COMPANY'S OWNED BY AN AMERICAN FAMILY WHO... ARE INVESTORS OUT OF NEW YORK. I THINK YOU CAN SEE A PATTERN ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY, WHETHER IT'S FOREIGN INTERESTS INTERESTED IN NATIVE FOREST LOGGING, IN THIS INSTANCE, OR BOTTLED WATER OR WHATEVER IT IS. THERE'S THIS WHOLE PATTERN OF TRANSFERRING OUR FANTASTIC RESOURCES INTO FOREIGN HANDS. (PENSIVE MUSIC) OVER AT LAKE BRUNNER, RESIDENTS HAVE ONLY JUST LEARNT ABOUT THE QUESTION MARK OVER COUNCIL LAND THERE. MAN: THERE'S A PRISTINE FOREST UP THERE, AND TO GO IN THERE AND START HARVESTING OUT OF IT WOULD BE JUST CRIMINAL. IAN CLAREY'S GOT NATIVE-TIMBER MILLING IN HIS BLOOD BUT SAYS IT'S TIME FOR THE COAST TO MOVE ON. SO WOULD YOU NOT SUPPORT THE SUSTAINABLE HARVESTING OF ANY OF THE COUNCIL LAND? THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS SUSTAINABLE. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING, 50 YEARS OR A HUNDRED YEARS OR 200 YEARS, 300 YEARS? TAKES 500 YEARS FOR A TREE TO MATURE. LOCAL DAVID ALUM IS AN AUTHORITY ON THE AREA. IS THERE`? THE COUNCIL LAND IS UNTOUCHED, UNSPOILT BUSH. SO IT'S PRIMEVAL BUSH, BASICALLY. YEAH, PRIMEVAL BUSH ` HASN'T BEEN LOGGED. OK, SO WE'VE GOT RIMU; WE'VE GOT KAHIKATEA. YES, EVERY BIT OF FAUNA AND FLORA. (BIRDSONG) SOME ENVIRONMENTALISTS WE SPOKE TO ARE SUSPICIOUS. THEY SAY IT'S SO OUTRAGEOUS THAT THE COUNCIL HAS PUT UP THIS PRIMEVAL BLOCK OF FOREST AS AN AREA HARVESTERS MAY BE INTERESTED IN THAT THEY THINK THE COUNCIL HAS ANOTHER AGENDA. WHY DOESN'T DOC SWAP THAT LAND WITH SOMETHING ELSE WITH US? OR WHY DOESN'T DOC COME TO US AND PURCHASE THAT BLOCK OF LAND OFF US? IT'S FOR SALE. YOU DON'T TREAT ANCIENT FORESTS LIKE THIS, WHERE YOU JUST PUT A BIT OF PRESSURE ON A COUNCIL FOR A BIT OF A LAND SWAP TO GET SOME FOREST TO LOG. THERE'S JUST NO INTEGRITY IN THAT. SO CASHMERE BAY, BASICALLY, MAYOR, IS FOR SALE. WE'D SELL IT TOMORROW. IT'S FOR SALE, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE NEED REVENUE FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT HERE ON THE WEST COAST. THE VETERAN PROTESTER'S COME BACK TO THE COMPENSATION PACKAGE. MOVING FROM, YOU KNOW, COAL MINING AND LOGGING TO A DIFFERENT KIND OF FUTURE, IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR MAKING CAR PARKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. CAR PARKS? BAIGENT-MERCER IS REFERRED TO THE $25,000 SPENT ON THE WINGHAM RUGBY LEAGUE CLUB CAR PARK... (ENGINES RUMBLE) ...OR THE CRASH BARRIER AT THE WESTPORT SUNSET SPEEDWAY. THE TRUST'S EXPENDITURE IS ALL ONLINE. (BIRDSONG) GREENS MP EUGENIE SAGE BELIEVE THERE'S A BROADER MOVE BACK INTO NATIVE LOGGING. AN MB REPORT LAST YEAR RECOMMENDED RELAXING RULES AROUND NATIVE TIMBER EXPORTS. IF THE FOREST ACT IS FURTHER LOOSENED TO ALLOW EXPORT OF NATIVE TIMBER, THAT WILL MEAN THAT ALL ACROSS NEW ZEALAND THERE'S LIKELY TO BE MUCH MORE EXTENSIVE LOGGING. FORESTER JON DRONFELD DOESN'T LIKE THE WORD 'LOGGING'. WELL, I DON'T LIKE THE WORD 'LOGGING' OF INDIGENOUS FORESTS, BECAUSE IT DENOTES CLEAR-FELLING. SUSTAINABLE MANAGEMENT IMPLIES MUCH THE SELECTIVE HARVEST, USUALLY DONE WITH A HELICOPTER, AND IT INVOLVES TAKING SMALL, DISCRETE GROUPS OF TREES OUT. AT THE END OF THE DAY, NATURE'S WINNING. AND WE COULDN'T BE HAPPIER ABOUT IT. THE COUNCIL HAS EXTENDED THE SUBMISSION TIME TO THE END OF NEXT WEEK, BECAUSE OF THE PUBLIC RESPONSE TO THE FUTURE OF THESE FORESTS. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF ` EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. WE VALUE AND WE TREASURE OUR FORESTS AND WE WANNA USE THEM ` THAT'S THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. WE THINK THAT WE CAN TAKE A YIELD OUT OF HERE AND BE PRODUCTIVE AND CREATE JOBS AND INCOME. JON DRONFELD FROM NZ SUSTAINABLE FOREST PRODUCTS IN REEFTON. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR CLAIRE ROBINSON; DR RUSSEL NORMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF GREENPEACE NEW ZEALAND; AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF BUSINESS FOR NZME. Is there such a thing? Can you create jobs and not wreck the environment? Not when you are talking about pristine ancient forest plantation forestry is a different kettle of fish. They are not making any more of ancient forest. When you go in and take out the biggest trees, you can disrupt the ecosystem. Those trees are important habitats. They hold a lot of nutrients in the forests. When they fall, they give those nutrients back to the forest. We are the guardians. You can see where they are coming from. On top of that, dairy has been in the doldrums in recent years. Things like tourism and mining that were big for the West Coast the fall away in jobs, but this is only going to produce a certain amount of revenue. They are making the point that it will create more jobs, it seems to me there is a bigger deal here. I think a swap would be in order. The infrared structure there is virtually non-existent. What should the government do to prevent this from even being on the table?? We are still trying to make productive wealth out of things we have an advantage and because we have good soil etc wwe need to rely less on our natural resources and more on our brains. We need to be thinking more about how we can support businesses to be set up in the West Coast. Looking at ideas where more people can be employed, and then the government providing money to support that. There should be support for people to go into the regions, and how we can move immigrants around the regions. Nothing like that is particularly joined up at the moment. But we need to stop exploiting our natural resources. People are going to jump on the job opportunities. When they interviewed the locals in the piece you just ran, tthey were questioning what was being proposed? The locals understand the value of pristine, ancient forest. Tourism is a huge part of the economy down there. The reason for that is the natural assets. Dairy versus tourism, tourism is our biggest export industry, and it is totally dependent on that natural capital. Why would we destroy that? It is so shortsighted. What are your thoughts, Fran? As far as where the government should be coming in here, what should they be doing? There probably needs to be more of a regional economic strategy again. There has been a lot of talk about the government focusing on the regions. We have not seen enough concertive action. The coast did have the impact of tourism injury. CORRECTION: and dairy at times you just have to pick up that immigrants will go to where the jobs are and resettle. It might be about resettlement packages. there is a lot that can be done, but it will require some investment. I think that is where Tony is coming from. He is trying to say to everyone that they have a problem there and help is needed. Most people agree, that the West Coast is a different country to the rest of New Zealand. They probably will not take too kindly to people telling them to move. The people in the interview, they value to that piece of forest, just like I do. They said almost the same words that I would. They thought it was a crazy idea. I think we underestimate the people on the West Coast. People down there get it and how important it is. They see the tourist dollars. Let us not discount them. I was not discounting them at all. (laughter) this was a hot political issue 20 or 30 years ago. Will it become one again? Absolutely. Younger voters and more progressive voters, even if they are not on the West Coast, they will see this as a litmus test for the government. They other voters were more likely to go green at the next election. If the submissions to the Council say yes, let us do it, there is a point at where the government has to come in. The mayor is saying that they have a for sale sign up. They are telling the crown that they should make an offer I think the land swap idea is a cool thing to do. Eeverybody got behind the campaign and the Nelson Lakes. What are so different about this? This is a beautiful, iconic part of New Zealand. why are we still nuclear free is a country? It is because a lot of National party supporters support nuclear free. Quite across the political spectrum, people do not want to knock down the old forest. The danger would be that if the council said we were going to do it and the government would let them, that will be the point where people will start to think that this is wrong. We will leave it there. AFTER THE BREAK ` MURRAY MCCULLY IS FAREWELLING POLITICS. HIS EXIT INTERVIEW WITH JESSICA MUTCH NEXT. YOU TURN UP TO SOME OF THE BIGGEST MEETINGS OF YOUR CAREER, JETLAGGED OUT OF YOUR SKULL, WITH THE JETLAG REALLY KICKING IN JUST AS YOU'RE STARTING A MEETING WITH HILLARY CLINTON OR JOHN KERRY. MURRAY MCCULLY IS QUITTING POLITICS AT THE ELECTION AND WILL FINISH UP HIS EIGHT-AND-A-HALF-YEAR STINT AS FOREIGN MINISTER TOMORROW. KNOWN AS ONE OF NATIONAL'S BACKROOM STRATEGISTS, THE DARK PRINCE, AS SOME HAVE CALLED HIM, HAS HELPED SEE A NUMBER OF NATIONAL LEADERS RISE AND FALL. HIS DISAPPOINTMENTS? NOT GETTING FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS WITH EUROPE AND THE GULF STATES. BUT HE TOLD ME HE'D HAD SOME BIG SUCCESSES TOO, AND FORGING AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY WAS ONE. FOR US, OF COURSE, THAT RAISED THE QUESTION OF THE ANTI-NUCLEAR LEGISLATION RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER WE WANTED TO BE A PART OF THE ANZUS ALLIANCE AND INDEED WHETHER IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE TO RESTORE THE U.S. RELATIONSHIP TO SOMETHING GOOD, BUT DIFFERENT. AND I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT WE'VE MANAGED TO ACHIEVE ALL OF THAT. WE'VE HAD A COUPLE OF U.S. SHIP VISITS, WHICH HAS BEEN TERRIFIC, AFTER 30 YEARS. WE'VE GOT A LEVEL OF TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN THE RELATIONSHIP, THAT I'M VERY PROUD OF. AND WE'VE GOT AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY, WHICH MEANS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO GIVE OUR OWN NEW ZEALAND VIEW ON MATTERS OF WORLD AFFAIRS. BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE SAID GETTING THE SEAT ON THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL WOULD GO DOWN AS YOUR BIGGEST ACHIEVEMENT. DOES THAT STILL RATE UP THERE? OH, OF COURSE IT DOES. I MEAN, THE DIPLOMATIC BUSINESS IS A WONDERFUL THING. YOU'VE GOT THIS VAST ARMY OF DIPLOMATS, WHO ARE TRAINED TO PUT THE BEST POSSIBLE SPIN ON EVERY MEETING OR EVERY ENGAGEMENT. AND THERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT ABOUT A SECURITY COUNCIL RACE, BECAUSE THE NUMBERS GO UP ON THE BOARD, AND YOU LOOK ON A PARTICULAR DAY, AND THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE. IT'S THE MOST OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENT OF SUCCESS. JOHN KEY SAID TO ME AFTERWARDS THAT IT WAS LIKE WINNING THE WORLD CUP IN DIPLOMACY, GETTING THREE-QUARTERS OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TO VOTE FOR US, AND I CERTAINLY PUT THAT RIGHT UP THERE, AS IT WAS A GREAT PRIVILEGE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEAD THE CAMPAIGN, AND THEN TO SERVE ON THE COUNCIL. WHAT WAS THE HARDEST DECISION YOU MADE, THEN? WAS THERE SOMETHING THAT KEPT YOU UP AT NIGHT AND, PERHAPS, YOU STILL THINK ABOUT? NO. NOT ONE DECISION THAT KEPT YOU UP AT NIGHT? NO. OH, LOOK, I'VE BEEN KEPT UP A LOT AT NIGHT. AND WHEN YOU LIVE WITH A CONSTANT STATE OF JETLAG, THAT'S A NORMAL WAY TO LIVE. BUT I CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT I DON'T FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT ANY OF THE BIG DECISIONS WE'VE MADE DURING MY TIME IN OFFICE. AND I LOOK AT ALL OF THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE'VE GOT WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AND, YOU KNOW, WITH A COUPLE OF BLEMISHES, I THINK WE'VE ACTUALLY LEFT THINGS IN PRETTY GOOD SHAPE. WHAT ARE THE BLEMISHES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? OH, LOOK, I WOULDN'T WANNA GO INTO THAT, BECAUSE THAT JUST MAKES LIFE HARDER FOR MY SUCCESSOR, BUT THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY A COUPLE OF AREAS WHERE, FOR REASONS THAT I REGARD AS VALID, WE MIGHT HAVE ANNOYED PEOPLE. ISRAEL, FOR EXAMPLE? OH, WELL, THAT'S CLEARLY ONE, YES. WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN IS THAT CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE, FIRST OF ALL, BEING TOLD YOU HAD THAT CALL ON THE PHONE? AND THEN TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE. OH, LOOK, I'VE NEVER SAID ANYTHING PUBLICALLY MUCH ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE CALL. I MEAN, THERE'S BEEN AN ISRAELI MEDIA REPORT THAT'S BEEN FED BY THE ISRAELI SIDE. ALL I'D SAY IS THAT I WAS LEFT IN NO DOUBT ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S FEELINGS. BUT LOOK, ON THIS THING, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT WHAT WAS AT ISSUE HERE WAS NZ'S POSITION ON THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION. I DON'T THINK ANY TRUE FRIEND OF ISRAEL WHAT WAS AT ISSUE HERE WAS NZ'S POSITION ON THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION. I DON'T THINK ANY TRUE FRIEND OF ISRAEL WANTS TO SEE THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION DISAPPEAR AS AN OPTION. BECAUSE IT TAKES YOU INTO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DEBATE, THAT NO ONE WANTS TO HAVE. BECAUSE ISRAEL TOOK ISSUE WITH YOU SPONSORING THIS RESOLUTION. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO DO THAT? WHY NOT JUST SUPPORT IT? YEAH, SO THIS WAS A VERY UNUSUAL SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT THE RESOLUTION WAS ACTUALLY TABLED ON BEHALF OF THE ARAB GROUP, BY EGYPT ON THE 22ND OF DECEMBER. SO IT WAS WELL AFTER THE YEAR HAD CONCLUDED IN MOST FOREIGN MINISTRIES, OUR OWN INCLUDED. BUT BETWEEN THE TIME THEY TABLED IT AND THE TIME THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE ON THE TABLE FOR DEBATE, THE EGYPTIANS CHANGED THEIR MINDS ABOUT SPONSORING IT. AND THAT LEFT THE CO-SPONSORS, OF WHICH I THINK THERE WERE FOUR, TO DETERMINE WHETHER TO PROCEED OR NOT. NOW, THE FACT IS THAT THE CO-SPONSORSHIP NOW, THE FACT IS THAT THE CO-SPONSORSHIP WAS SOMETHING THAT I HAD SPECIFICALLY MANDATED, BECAUSE THE RESOLUTION TICKED THE BOXES OF OUR LONG-STANDING POLICY, TWO-STATE SOLUTION, CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE, CONDEMN THE INCITEMENT. WERE YOU PRESSURED BY THE U.S. TO DO THAT, THOUGH? NO. COS OTHERWISE PEOPLE FROM THE OUTSIDE MIGHT SAY, WHY DO THAT? WHY ANNOY ISRAEL IN THAT WAY? COS THERE WAS A LOT OF FALLOUT FROM THAT DECISION, WASN'T THERE? OH, LOOK, I'M AWARE THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE GOT EXOTIC EXPLANATIONS AS TO WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, BUT THE TRUTH IS SOMEWHAT SIMPLER. THERE WAS A RESOLUTION PUT ON THE TABLE. THEY WEREN'T OUR WORDS. ACTUALLY, WE'D TRIED TO GET SOME CONSTRUCTIVE LANGUAGE THAT WE THOUGHT WAS BETTER. AND WE SIMPLY FAILED TO ACCEPTANCE BY ANY OF THE PARTIES FOR THAT. AND SOMEBODY ELSE PUT SOMETHING ON THE TABLE, AND WE JUDGED IT ON ITS MERITS. DO YOU REGRET THE DAMAGE THAT IT CAUSED, THOUGH? OH, LOOK, I ALWAYS REGRET RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE DAMAGED IN THE FOREIGN POLICY WORLD, BUT ACTUALLY, THE CONTENT OF THE RESOLUTION IS ACTUALLY MUCH DIFFERENT FROM WHAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE REPRESENTED IT TO BE. I THINK WE ALL SUPPORT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION. THAT'S BEEN MAINSTREAM NZ THINKING FOR A LONG TIME. WE CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE AND INCITEMENT, AND WE OPPOSE SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY THAT UNDERMINES THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION. NZ'S POSITION IS WELL ESTABLISHED ON THOSE THINGS. BECAUSE ANOTHER BLOT ON YOUR COPYBOOK, IF YOU LIKE, WAS THE SAUDI SHEEP SCANDAL. EVEN THOUGH THE AUDITOR-GENERAL SAID THAT SHE SHARED MANY NZERS' CONCERNS ABOUT THE ARRANGEMENT, DO YOU WISH THAT THINGS HAD BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY, IN HINDSIGHT? OH, LOOK, I WISH I'D NEVER HAD THE PROBLEM TO DEAL WITH. I DIDN'T CREATE IT. I INHERITED IT, WENT THROUGH A SERIES OF ACTIONS, AND PEOPLE CAN GO AND INSPECT THE RECORD THEMSELVES. SO YOU INHERITED THE DEAL ` IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? NO, I INHERITED A COMPLETELY POISONED RELATIONSHIP, NOT JUST WITH ONE COUNTRY, BUT WITH ONE REGION. WE'D COMPLETED NEGOTIATIONS OF THE FREE-TRADE AGREEMENT BACK IN 2009. AND BECAUSE OF THE DAMAGE THAT HAD BEEN DONE, IT WAS PUT ON HOLD, MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY. AND WE WERE TOLD WE HAD TO FIND A WAY OF RESTORING A RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO NORMALISE A TRADE AND ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP AND PROCEDE WITH THE FREE-TRADE AGREEMENT. WAS THAT THE ONLY WAY TO HANDLE IT, THOUGH? DO YOU THINK IN HINDSIGHT, YOU WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY? NO, I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT I DID WHAT WAS IN NZ'S BEST INTERESTS, IN THE BEST WAY I COULD. I ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE GOT A DIFFERENT VIEW. ALL I'LL SAY, AND I SAID THIS AT THE TIME OF GENERAL'S REPORT, IS THAT I'M QUITE HAPPY TO PERSONALLY TAKE THE BRICK BATS, BUT WHEN THE FREE-TRADE AGREEMENT GETS ACROSS THE LINE, AND WE GET THOSE RUNS ON THE BOARD AND THEY START HANDING OUT SOME BOUQUESTS, AND THEY START HANDING OUT SOME BOUQUETS, I HOPE THEY REMEMBER MY NAME AT THAT STAGE. DO YOU ACCEPT THE AUDITOR-GENERAL'S CONCERNS, THOUGH. I'VE NEVER DISPUTED IT. I WANT TO ASK YOU ` SITTING DOWN WITH GERRY BROWNLEE AND HAVING A CHAT WITH HIM, WHAT'S THE ONE PIECE OF ADVICE YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE HIM? I HAVE ALREADY HAD A GOOD DISCUSSION WITH GERRY BROWNLEE. HE'S, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, A VERY OLD FRIEND OF MINE, AND I THINK HE'LL BE A VERY GOOD FOREIGN MINISTER. AND I HAVEN'T PRESUMED TO GIVE HIM ANY ADVICE, BECAUSE HE'S A VASTLY EXPERIENCED POLITICIAN. EVEN SOMETHING PRACTICAL, THOUGH? OH, LOOK, I'VE SAID I'LL ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU'VE GOT, BUT HE WILL DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY. HE WILL DO THINGS HIS WAY. AND IT'S GOOD TO HAVE THAT SORT OF CHANGE IN A GOVERNMENT AND IN A COUNTRY LIKE THIS, AND I WISH HIM EVERY SUCCESS. YOU HAVE A REPUTATION AMONG YOUR COLLEAGUES, A NICKNAME, IF YOU LIKE, OF BEING THE BLACK PRINCE. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT NICKNAME? I THINK IT WAS BESTOWED UPON ME BY FRIENDS AND WAS MEANT IN A GENEROUS WAY. SO I ACCEPT IT IN THE SPIRIT IN WHICH IT WAS DONE. IT'S STUCK, THOUGH, AND GIVES YOU THE REPUTATION OF BEING A WHEELER AND DEALER AND STRATEGIST IN THE NATIONAL PARTY. IS THAT ACCURATE? OH, LOOK, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT I SPENT OVER 20 YEARS OF MY POLITICAL CAREER INVOLVED AT THE CHALLENGING END OF DOMESTIC POLITICS. AND YOU WERE A WHEELER AND DEALER, WEREN'T YOU? YOU WERE A BIG DEAL, A BIG PLAYER? OH, LOOK, I KNOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO FILL NEWSPAPERS OR TV SHOWS, NEED TO PAINT AN EXOTIC PICTURE OF THIS, BUT IT'S NEVER BEEN AS GLAMOUROUS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT I'VE BEEN VERY LUCKY, ACTUALLY. FROM THE TIME THAT JIM BOLGER INVITED ME INTO THE MINISTRY, IN 1991, I'VE HAD A ROLE SERVING A RANGE OF LEADERS, IN A RANGE OF DIFFERENT WAYS. EVERYONE COMES INTO POLITICS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, TO HAVE AN INFLUENCE, AND I'VE GIVEN OVER THAT PERIOD MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO HAVE AN INFLUENCE. I'M VERY GRATEFUL FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY. YOU'VE GONE THROUGH SOME SCRAPS AS WELL WITH THE PARTY. WERE THERE ANY MOMENTS THAT YOU LOOK BACK ON AND PINCH-ME MOMENTS, OR DID THAT GO AWAY A FEW YEARS AGO? OH, LOOK, ALWAYS. THIS IS A REALLY TOUGH BUSINESS. AND TO PLAY AT THE SHARP END FOR AS LONG AS I HAVE, YEP, THERE ARE GONNA BE SOME BUMPS AND SCRATCHES. AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU HAVE TO REMIND YOURSELF THAT IT'S NOT PERSONAL. IS THAT HARD, THOUGH? BECAUSE IT IS PERSONAL, ISN'T IT? OF COURSE IT'S HARD, BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU SIGN UP FOR. AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU'RE JUST A PRODUCT, JUST A CAN OF BAKED BEANS, IF YOU LIKE. AND YOU'VE JUST GOTTA ACTUALLY RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO TAKE IT ALL TOO PERSONALLY. ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU DID DO A BIT OF WHEELING AND DEALING WITH, SOME MIGHT SAY, IS SHANE JONES. YOU DID A SPEECH TO THE INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS IN RECENTS TIMES YOU CREDITED sHANE jONES FOR HIS WORK IN THE pACIFIC. He resonated with some voters. It wouldn't be Accurate for me to say that it never crossed my mind. The Black Prince part of it? Shane Jones and I have known each other long before he came into Parliament. I have a lot to respect for him. we share a passion to see the Pacific region Move ahead to deal with some of the challenges there, One of the big ones is to put the Pacific tuna fishery Into sustainable business. Will you raise a glass of champagne if he goes enjoys New Zealand first after this? He and I have been very proper about this. I am catching up with him in a few weeks time. we have a professional relationship. I will take your word on that one. How does Winston Peters fit into the mix? Could national work with him? Could he be Foreign Minister again? He was my predecessor as a Foreign Minister. I have tried to show him appropriate respect for that reason. As far of the events later this year, The Prime Minister is the person to talk to about that, And I wish him well. Before you go, as journalists we stand outside the door when you have these important meetings. We never know what goes on inside there. does anything stand out for you? This is my curiosity asking. I cannot point to one meeting. One of the things that people do not think about in this job, With the air travel and all, You turn up at some of the biggest meetings in your career Jetlagged out of your skull. The jetlag kicks and just as you are starting a meeting with Hillary Clinton or John Kerry Or just as you're about to speak at the presidency of the Security Council. The job looks glamorous, But the harsh reality is that when you come from New Zealand, You are dealing with jetlag. Trumps 100 days in office ` what is your take on how he has been doing? From a foreign-policy point of view, You have to remember that this is an administration that has not yet formed. You have people like Rex to listen, people who are well respected internationally, but the next layer down is just not there. The assistant secretary is not yet appointed The people who will do all the work to make the Secretary of State effective Are not yet in their jobs. This is taking an unusual amount of time to happen. I do not think too many people can form too many conclusions Without those personnel there. OUTGOING FOREIGN MINISTER MURRAY MCCULLY SPEAKING TO JESSICA THERE. Your thoughts on him as a man, a minister. As a minister, it is remarkable that he has been a minister of foreign affairs 8 � years. He has represented New Zealand well. The only damage relationship was as well. In terms of his role as Minister of foreign affairs internally, I think he has been the most rude and interfering minister. I have had two periods working there over the last 32 years, I do not think no one has interfered as inappropriately as he and the careers of diplomats As he has. Murray McCully has affected many people's careers negatively In that ministry. This is known around Wellington. This is known by the government. They have let it go, because for the government, It has been much more convenient to have him offshore and jetlagged Then it has been to have in the country. When we look back at the history of foreign ministers in New Zealand, While to the outside it will look all right, Internally, There will be years of making up for the damage. You were there at the time. What are your thoughts? I think a lot of that is not really obvious from the outside. Would you agree with what Clare is just said? When you're in parliament, the do not tell you that much. Week saw some of it spillover in various times. kkeeping NZ aid, It was originally set up so that it would have autonomy So that aid money would not be used for trade, Removing that was quite a problem. The Antarctic staff around the marine protected area Was a significant achievement for New Zealand. In terms of the downside of New Zealand's role, The Climate stuff stands out. We have not help the global move towards reducing emissions. We will get into the Saudi sheep stuff shortly, The first as a minister. I think internationally he was effective. What stands out for me is the relationship with the big powers the US and China. you will recall Donald Brash when he was leader. Hhe took his time both in opposition under John Key When he went to the United States several times And then when coming into power, And he had lots of painstaking meetings with the officials And Hillary Clinton coming to New Zealand and signing that declaration. It put the relationship on a new footing. It got rid of a lot of the annexed from the mid-80s. I think his meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister, Who is a pretty lethal guy when he gets going, if you do not manage him well, He has managed that relationship well. He managed the Premier's visit as well. He is keeping markets open. you build up that kind of experience after being in the business for many years. He is respected, Which is interesting coming from a small country. He has survived some scandals. I do not think he survived that one. There was talk about payouts. Jenny Shipley had to sack him In terms of appropriate payouts for the tourism board. In the past, his wheeling and dealing has negatively affected him. He has helped the National party. He has been part of the identification of new leaders. There are a lot of people in the National party that open their jobs. They have protected over this period of time. He has been in Parliament since 1987. That is a long time, and it has been his life. He was quite sick a couple of years ago. The travelling didn't help. It is crippling on your body, Although travel the Saudi sheep deal. Do you think he dealt with it well? No, they did not deal with it well. What he did do, that deal which came under criticism By the auditor general and rightly so, It was ticked off by cabinet. If he was pulled down, they would have to go with him. I thought it was atrocious. I think there should have been more open and transparent mechanisms to deal with it. John Key came back to New Zealand and the middle of a trip to meet with the leaders of the Gulf state. They went into that trap expecting to move forward on the deal. There is the Saudi issue, but there are other issues that they conveniently do not face up to. 30 years on the job. Would he have had a future in the Bill English government? It is hard to see. Maybe. He was so well-connected. Maybe he had had enough And wanted to do something else. I am interested in the big policies. I know that he did care about the Pacific. What is the biggest threat to the Pacific? Climate change. What is his record? His record has been terrible. On that big issue, if you are going to look at such a long career In a region I know he does care so deeply about, What has New Zealand's contribution been to that? It has actually been negative. How different will Gerry Brownlee be in the job? Very different, I imagine. He is in the same situation as most of the new ministers and that he is going to be caretaking that new portfolio in the next few months. He will be We have been very well served by New Zealand foreign ministers. They all take the job really seriously, because it is so important For us to be able to have good relationships of every country in the world. We cannot survive if we don't. I think Kerry will understand the importance of the job, And if he performs well, I think it will be has for the next term. The phone call with with Israel. There are mixed views on that. It was divisive within the National party the call into the Egyptian President Which scuttled that leadership of that initiative. I think it is a bit disingenuous to say it is the same resolution, as it is not I think it should not have been right on the cusp of a new government And the United States. AFTER THE BREAK ` 100 DAYS OF TRUMP. HE TALKED A BIG GAME, BUT WHAT DOES DONALD TRUMP HAVE TO SHOW FOR HIS FIRST THREE MONTHS IN OFFICE? OUR U.S. CORRESPONDENT, REBECCA WRIGHT, REPORTS FROM HIS PENNSYLVANIA RALLY NEXT. DURING THE U.S. ELECTION CAMPAIGN, PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP TALKED UP WHAT HE'D DO IN HIS FIRST 100 DAYS IN OFFICE. THAT DAY'S ARRIVED, ALTHOUGH TRUMP WOULD NOW PREFER WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IT. I'LL TALK ABOUT WHY WITH OUR U.S. CORRESPONDENT, REBECCA WRIGHT, IN A MOMENT, BUT FIRST ` A REMINDER OF THE TURBULENT START TO THE TRUMP ERA. JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS. I, DONALD JOHN TRUMP, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR. THIS WAS THE LARGEST AUDIENCE TO EVER WITNESS AN INAUGURATION, PERIOD. SEAN SPICER GAVE ALTERNATIVE FACTS. LOOK, ALTERNATIVE FACTS ARE NOT FACTS. TPP WASN'T THE RIGHT WAY, SO WE'RE GOING BACK TO THOSE COUNTRIES, ONE ON ONE, AND THAT'LL BE BEAUTIFUL. ALL CHANT: REFUGEES ARE WELCOME HERE! A JUDGE HAS JUST BLOCKED OUR EXECUTIVE ORDER ON TRAVEL. THIS RULING MAKES US LOOK WEAK! # DON'T HAVE HIM. OH, NO. # YOU REPORT THAT PRESIDENT HANG-UP IS NOT CORRECT. THE PRESS HONESTLY IS OUT OF CONTROL. NEWS IS FAKE. I DON'T HAVE ANY DEALS IN RUSSIA. PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SHOCKING AND EVIDENCE-FREE CLAIM. VICTOR, WAS THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT THAT OBAMA HAD HIS WIRES TAPPED IN TRUMP TOWER A TRUE STATEMENT? I HAVE NO INFORMATION THAT SUPPORTS THOSE TWEETS. NOBODY KNEW THAT HEALTHCARE COULD BE SO COMPLICATED. THAT ATTACK ON CHILDREN YESTERDAY HAD A BIG IMPACT ON ME. IN CASE ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTION, THE WALL'S GONNA GET BUILT. THIS WHITE HOUSE ISN'T GONNA BE PRESSURED BY ARTIFICIAL DEADLINES. NO. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S NEXT WEEK. NEXT WEEK DOESN'T MATTER. AND JOINING ME NOW IS U.S. CORRESPONDENT REBECCA WRIGHT, WHO IS IN HARRISBURG, THE STATE CAPITAL OF PENNSYLVANIA, WHERE PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT TO HOLD A RALLY. What's it like? It is very busy here. Reporters have covered these rallies and say they have never seen a turnout like this. CROWD SIZE IS IMPORTANT TO dONALD tRUMP. There are thousands and thousands of people wanting to catch a glimpse of him. He is coming here because this is one of the states that since to the White House. He was the first Republican to win Pennsylvania since 1988. He talked about how he missed getting out and about. This is a chance for him to do that. He may be coming out of his cocoon, but are there any protesters around? The party is going to be gatecrashed. The Democrats are going to march down here. They have a permit to have a spot opposite where the Trump supporters are lining up. Those two Americas we saw during the campaign are on display here today. The protesting has been part of his presidency, but what other things are people talking about? There has been a lot of analysis. The theme of chaos emerges again and again. It's difficult to comprehend they have been so many issues in the first hundred days. It seems like 100 years. That's what his supporters say they wanted from him. They say they want him to go to Washington to take it back for the people. He has had a couple of roadblocks, but they say he is still the man of the job. 96% of his voters would still vote for him. Murray McCully said the administration had been slow to get going. What's your take on that? I can't imagine what it must be like, coming from the conservatively sized country like New Zealand, dealing with the State Department. I heard a funny anecdote about a State Department worker, because he thought that might help to cut through if he had the buyers speak. You've been covering President Trump for 100 days. What happened in his biggest wins and failure? Near getting the L confirmed as Supreme Court justice. He has returned the Supreme Court to a majority. He will be on this agreement court for 30 years and form part of Donald's legacy. He hasn't got the wall up and has travel ban remains suspended. It has not all been plain sailing, and the travel ban remains suspended and the wall is not built. A bum care remains in effect. CORRECTION:: Obama care U.S. CORRESPONDENT REBECCA WRIGHT SPEAKING TO JESSICA THERE. YOUR FEEDBACK AFTER THE BREAK. PLUS OUR PANEL HAS THEIR FINAL WORD ` THEY PICK THE WEEK'S POLITICAL HITS AND MISSES. YOUR FEEDBACK NOW. LOTS OF THOUGHTS ON OUR STORY ABOUT THE PROPOSAL TO HARVEST NATIVE FORESTS ON THE WEST COAST ` THE MAJORITY OF IT OPPOSED TO THE IDEA. RUSTY'S TEXTED, 'I DON'T MIND THE LOGGING, 'BUT THE TREES MUST BE PROCESSED IN NZ, NOT SENT OVERSEAS AS LOGS.' KATHRYN CLARK'S TWEET SAYS THE 'IDEA HAS LIMITED SHORT TERM GAINS' AND ASKS, 'HOW IS NATURE WINNING WITH THAT?' GOFF BACON POINTS OUT VIA TEXT THAT THE COAST AND ITS PEOPLE NEED TO SURVIVE SOMEHOW. AND THIS FROM TWITTER ` KERRY TANKARD HAS TWEETED THAT OUR PANELIST RUSSELL NORMAN HAS GOT IT IN ONE. We will start with Fran. Your hits and misses this week. His rowing out of the tax policy. This is a big wind that is supposed to deliver corporate tax down to 15%. It didn't have the detail and there is a huge debate going on. Very little has gotten through at this stage. What is counting as the mid-term election and a couple of years time. The Republicans have to get some traction with this president. My hit? Hard to think of any. Focused on trump. The Ministry of environment produced a good report on water pollution and a scrap destruction of ecosystems. The mess was the Prime Minister increasing water pollution. Amongst the public, and is moved along way. The government would be unwise to keep its head in the sand about it. My hit is the winning the right to consist the French presidency. That's a major development for France. The Mrs Andrew little on immigration. While it's normal to hear Winston Peters complaining about immigrants, for labour to be moving to Populist is out of sorts. It's only going to be attracting more people to the green end of the coalition. It doesn't seem to ring true for a party like labour to be coming down so hard on immigration. Donald Trump the situation with the US and North Korea keeps getting more tense. How will it play out? All I could offer is that in the past, the president draws attention to a conflict. The conundrum is that we know nothing about North Korea and their firepower. The bombings in Afghanistan and Syria and North Korea, that has come after a meeting with the presidents of China. Donald Trump is a transactional based President. The rhetoric is more rambunctious than what does occur.