MORENA, GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. TODAY ` IT IS AN ABSOLUTE HONOUR AND A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE THE ABILITY IT IS AN ABSOLUTE HONOUR AND A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE THE ABILITY AS THE LEADER OF THE NEW ZEALAND LABOUR PARTY TO FORM A GOVERNMENT FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. WE'VE HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE, WHETHER IT WAS WITH EITHER NATIONAL OR LABOUR, FOR A MODIFIED STATUS QUO OR FOR CHANGE. AND SO IT'S CHANGE. A LABOUR-NEW ZEALAND FIRST COALITION WITH GREEN VOTES FOR CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY. WHAT WILL THAT CHANGE LOOK LIKE? PRIME MINISTER ELECT JACINDA ARDERN IS OUR LEAD INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. THEN GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW. THE GREENS ARE OUTSIDE OF CABINET BUT HAVE THREE MINISTERIAL POSITIONS FOR THE FIRST TIME. CAN HIS PARTY WORK WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST? LEADER JAMES SHAW JOINS US THIS MORNING. AND WHENA OWEN VISITS AN IWI WITH HOPES THAT ONE DAY IT WON'T NEED ANY OF THESE POLITICIANS. WE WILL NEVER EVER CONCEDE THAT OUR FUTURE IS DETERMINED BY WELLINGTON. IT WILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT. TUHOE LEADER TAMATI KRUGER TALKS ABOUT HIS ENDURING DRIVE FOR AN INDEPENDENT FUTURE. CAPTIONS BY ALEX WALKER AND CHELSEA THORESEN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR EXTENDED PANEL THIS MORNING ` AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER, MARAMA FOX, MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER, JOHN TAMIHERE, CEO OF THE WAIPAREIRA TRUST AND KIM CAMPBELL, EMPLOYERS AND MANUFACTURERS CEO. AND SO WE START WITH THE PRIME MINISTER ELECT JACINDA ARDERN. SHE'LL BE OUR THIRD FEMALE PRIME MINISTER AND ONE OF OUR YOUNGEST TOO. POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN SPOKE TO HER AT THE END OF HER FIRST DAY AS LEADER ` WITH HER VOICE SLIGHTLY HOARSE ` AND ASKED ABOUT THE ENORMOUS WEIGHT OF EXPECTATION ON HER SHOULDERS. OH, I WILL CARRY PERSONALLY A CONSTANT EXPECTATION ON MYSELF THAT I DELIVER ON THE THINGS THAT WE'VE CAMPAIGNED ON, AND, YES, THEY INCLUDE MAKING SURE THAT WE SEE WAGES LIFTED IN NEW ZEALAND, THAT PEOPLE LIVE IN DECENT, WARM, DRY HOMES, THAT WE MAKE A DENT IN OUR CHILD POVERTY FIGURES, THAT WE IMPROVE OUR WATERWAYS, THAT WE TAKE ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE. EACH OF THESE ARE SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES, AND WE WILL BE AMBITIOUS IN THE GOALS THAT WE SET FOR OURSELVES. WE HOPE, OF COURSE, TO MEET THOSE GOALS. SOMETIMES WE WON'T, BUT OUR FOCUS WILL BE ON ENSURING THAT WE NEVER SET OUR SIGHTS ON MEDIOCRE, THAT WE NEVER SETTLE FOR ANYTHING THAN THE BEST OUTCOMES POSSIBLE FOR NEW ZEALAND. HOW DO YOU LIFT WAGES, THOUGH? I MEAN, THIS GOVERNMENT, CURRENT GOVERNMENT, OR GOVERNMENT THAT'S OUTGOING, HAS BEEN TRYING FOR NINE YEARS. IT'S HAD PRETTY MODERATE WAGE GROWTH. HAS IT? IT HAS. I DON'T CONSIDER THAT IT HAS. WHAT I WOULD CONTEST IS WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE TAKEN ALL OF THE ACTION THAT WAS AT THEIR DISPOSAL. SO WHAT COULD YOU DO THAT WOULD GET WAGES UP FASTER? CONSISTENT ADVICE FROM EXPERTS FROM THE LIKES OF THE OECD HAS BEEN THE GREATEST CHALLENGE WE FACED AS A NATION IS ENSURING THAT WE WERE LIFTING OUR PRODUCTIVITY. OF COURSE, INVESTING IN SKILLS AND EDUCATION IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE'LL SEE A LONG-TERM BENEFIT THROUGH OUR WAGE GROWTH. THERE HASN'T BEEN THE INVESTMENT THAT WE NEED IN THAT AREA. BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM YOU'VE GOT, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE IT COMES BACK TO EXPECTATIONS. THREE YEARS ISN'T VERY LONG. THAT MAY WORK IN A MEDIUM TO LONG-TERM PERIOD. BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT STRAIGHT AWAY, ISN'T IT? INDEED. AND, OF COURSE, WE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT THAT LAYS THE FOUNDATIONS FOR STRONG GROWTH AND DELIVERY FOR NEW ZEALANDERS OVER TIME. BUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE SEE US TAKE ACTION IN THOSE AREAS PART OF OUR 100-DAY PLAN WAS INVESTING IN TRADES AND EDUCATION. PART OF OUR PLAN WAS TAKING ACTION QUICKLY ON INVESTING IN INNOVATION. AND ON TOP OF THAT, THERE ARE IMMEDIATE WAYS YOU CAN LIFT WAGES, AND THAT'S BY LIFTING THE MINIMUM WAGE, AND THAT WAS PART OF OUR IMMEDIATE PLAN AS WELL. AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST IS PRESUMABLY IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT, SO YOU'LL GO TO $16.50? IS THAT IT? INDEED. SO PART OF OUR 100-DAY PLAN WAS $16.50 ` PUT THROUGH THE LEGISLATION FOR THAT RISE TO TAKE EFFECT AT THE BEGINNING OF 2018. WHAT ABOUT INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS REFORM? WILL THERE BE REFORM THAT BRINGS IN, EFFECTIVELY, A MODERN VERSION OF NATIONAL AWARDS? SO SOME INDUSTRIES, THERE IS A MINIMUM WAGE SET, SAY, BUS DRIVERS. AND THAT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE. LET'S DRAW ON THAT EXAMPLE. AT THE MOMENT, WE SEE CONTRACTS COMING UP ACROSS COUNCILS FOR THOSE WHO OFFER SERVICES FOR OUR BUS DRIVERS. SO ONE OF THE WAYS THAT THOSE WHO ARE PITCHING FOR THOSE CONTRACTS, OFFERING COUNCIL A LOWER BILL, IS BY DRIVING DOWN THE CONDITIONS THAT THOSE BUS DRIVERS HAVE. THAT'S NOT A PATHWAY TO PROSPERITY FOR NEW ZEALAND OR FOR THE WORKERS. SO YOU'LL LEGISLATE ON THAT? THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE, IN OUR VIEW, THINGS LIKE FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS, WHICH WE INTEND TO HAVE A HANDFUL OF ANY GIVEN YEAR ACROSS AN INDUSTRY, COULD HAVE A POSITIVE BENEFIT. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, THOUGH, BECAUSE THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS QUITE WORRIED ABOUT THIS. AND WE HAVE ASSURED THEM THAT THEY HAVE NO NEED TO BE. WHY? BECAUSE IN AN AREA LIKE THAT WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH BUS DRIVERS, I THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE AGREEMENT THAT CONTINUALLY DRIVING DOWN PEOPLE'S WAGES AND CONDITIONS IN ORDER TO WIN THOSE CONTRACTS ACTUALLY DOES NOT SERVE OUR PURPOSES. BUT ARE YOU SAYING IT'LL ONLY BE ONE OR TWO INDUSTRIES A YEAR? YES, WE HAVE AT LEAST SET OURSELVES THE GOAL OF ONE OR TWO A YEAR. WE ALREADY HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF A FORM OF FAIR PAY AGREEMENT IN THE HOME-CARE WORKERS. BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT. THIS IS LIKE GOING BACK. THIS IS AN AWARD SYSTEM, ISN'T IT, EFFECTIVELY? NO, IT'S NOT DIFFERENT, ACTUALLY. WHAT WE ACHIEVED FOR THE HOME-CARE WORKERS WAS ESSENTIALLY EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT WE'VE` BUT THAT TOOK A COURT CASE. WELL, IT'S AVOIDING THE COURT CASE. OF COURSE, THAT WAS A PROHIBITIVE PROCESS TO GO THROUGH. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PROCESS THAT'S COLLABORATIVE, WORKS WITH EMPLOYERS AND EMPLOYEES TO DRIVE CONSENSUS. WOULD YOU NEED TO LEGISLATE FOR THAT? WE WILL CREATE A PROCESS, BUT FOR INSTANCE, WHERE THERE HAS BEEN MOST CONCERN FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY HAS, FOR INSTANCE, BEEN AROUND WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD TAKE STRIKE ACTION AS PART OF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS. WE ARE ABSOLUTELY RULING THAT OUT AS PART OF THE PROCESS. ARE YOU WORRIED YOU'LL GET SOME SORT OF WINTER OF DISCONTENT THAT HELEN CLARK FACED WHEN SHE CAME IN 1999 FROM BUSINESS? NO. NO, NO, I'M NOT. I INTEND TO WORK IN PARTNERSHIP. IN FACT, I HAD CONTACT WITH BUSINESS NEW ZEALAND OVER THE ISSUE OF FAIR-PAY AGREEMENTS DURING THE CAMPAIGN, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH THEM. OURS WILL BE A GOVERNMENT OF PARTNERSHIP. IF WE WANT TO DELIVER THE GAINS FOR NEW ZEALANDERS THAT WE INTEND TO, WE'LL HAVE TO DELIVER THEM ALONGSIDE THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AS WELL. THAT'S THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT I WISH TO LEAD. WINSTON PETERS TALKED AT LENGTH IN HIS SPEECH WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THE DECISION ABOUT THE... I GUESS, CAPITALISM HAS GONE AWRY AND THAT MANY NEW ZEALANDERS HAD LOST FAITH IN ELEMENTS OF IT. THE RHETORIC WAS VERY GLOOMY AND DOOMY. DO YOU SHARE THAT NEGATIVE VIEW THAT WE'RE ON THE PRECIPICE OF SOME BIG DISASTER HERE? OH, I BELIEVE WE CAN DO BETTER. THERE ARE CERTAINLY SIGNS OF A SLOWDOWN THAT MR PETERS WAS SPEAKING TO, AND I THINK HIS WAS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT IF THAT CONTINUES, HE WANTS` WHAT SIGNS? WHAT SIGNS ARE THOSE? WELL, I GUESS IN THE HOUSING MARKET, THERE CERTAINLY ARE SIGNS. BUT, LOOK, MY VIEW IS THAT THERE IS A ROLE FOR US TO PLAY IN MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE MUCH MORE PROACTIVE AND INTERVENING WHERE WE ARE SEEING THE MARKET FAILING OUR PEOPLE, AND THERE ARE CLEAR SIGNS OF THAT. MY VIEW IS THAT THERE IS NO POINT IN GLOATING ABOUT THE ECONOMIC GROWTH OF A NATION IF YOU HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST HOMELESSNESS IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD OR IF YOU HAVE HIGH CHILD POVERTY RATES. INTERVENING IN THE MARKETS IS ONE THING. IS YOUR GOVERNMENT GOING TO BE ONE THAT GOES A STEP FURTHER AND REALLY TACKLES THE PILLARS OF, I GUESS, THE NEOLIBERAL EXPERIMENT WHICH WINSTON PETERS HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT? WILL YOU GO FURTHER THAN JUST INTERVENING IN PARTICULAR MARKETS THAT YOU HAVE DECIDED THAT ARE FAILING? I WOULD QUESTION WHETHER THEY HAVE INTERVENED. OUR HOUSING MARKET HAS FAILED. THEIR RESPONSE TO THAT, TO OUR HOUSING CRISIS, HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY HANDS-OFF. WELL, THEY SPENT $330 MILLION ON A CALLAGHAN INSTITUTE IN SCIENCE. I MEAN, THEY PICK WINNERS. THAT'S WHAT ALL GOVERNMENTS DO. LOOK, AGAIN, OUR VIEW IS THAT THEY HAVE NOT INTERVENED WHERE THERE HAS BEEN CLEAR FAILURE, WHEN THERE HAS BEEN ABSOLUTE AND CLEAR FAILURE. AND THE HOUSING MARKET IS ONE OF THE BEST EXAMPLES OF THAT. YES, WE HAVE FORMED AGREEMENT WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST AROUND DOING WORK AROUND THE RESERVE BANK ACT. IN FACT, THAT WAS SOMETHING WE CLEARLY CAMPAIGNED ON AS WELL. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT MEASURES OF SUCCESS IN NEW ZEALAND ARE AS MUCH ABOUT INCOMES FOR PEOPLE AS THEY ARE THE TRADITIONAL FORMS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH AND GDP. AND DOES IT MATTER WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD THINKS ABOUT WHAT WE DO WITH THE RESERVE BANK? OH, LOOK, WE'VE GOT TO DO THINGS ON OUR OWN TERMS. NO, NO, BUT DOES IT MATTER IN TERMS OF ` DO YOU CARE OR DO YOU WORRY THAT WE, AS A COUNTRY WHICH NEEDS FOREIGN INVESTMENT AND NEEDS FOREIGN CAPITAL, THAT THAT COULD DAMAGE OUR ABILITY TO GET THAT CAPITAL? I WILL ALWAYS BE MINDFUL OF NEW ZEALAND'S CREDIT RATING, OF OUR STANDING, OF OUR POSITION AS BEING A NATION THAT IS LOOKED TO AS A PLACE THAT IS FREE FROM CORRUPTION, HAS STABLE GOVERNMENT, HAS A HIGH EASE OF DOING BUSINESS; THOSE MARKERS MATTER TO ME. BUT SO DO THE MARKERS OF SUCCESS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL. I WANT THEIR WAGES RELATIVE TO INFLATION TO BE BETTER. I WANT THEIR HOUSING TO BE MORE AFFORDABLE. I WANT THEIR KIDS TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS ALL THE SERVICES THEY DID. THOSE MARKERS OF SUCCESS ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT TO ME. SO YOU WANT THOSE THINGS. DO YOU WANT, I GUESS, THE TAG THAT CAN COME WITH IT ` THAT SORT OF BREXIT, NATIONALIST SORT OF TAG THAT CAN COME WITH THAT? THE IDEA THAT WE'RE SUDDENLY NOT OUTWARD-LOOKING SO MUCH. I THINK PROBABLY THAT SENTIMENT BUILDS UP NOT JUST AROUND ECONOMIC MARKERS. IN FACT, WE ARE A PARTY THAT BELIEVES, FOR INSTANCE, ON THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF TRADE. WE ARE A FREE AND FAIR TRADE PARTY. WE ARE NOT CLOSE-MINDED IN THE ROLE THAT WE HAVE TO PLAY IN THE WORLD. BUT YOU'RE PUTTING IN A FOREIGN BUYERS BAN. YEAH, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE AN ABSOLUTE FAILURE IN OUR HOUSING MARKET, AND WE'RE WILLING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ACT TO PRESERVE THE RIGHT OF ANYONE WHO CHOOSES TO MAKE NEW ZEALAND HOME TO BUY A HOME HERE. BUT IF I CAN JUST FINISH ` THAT SENSE OF WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE A CLOSED-OFF COUNTRY WHO ISN'T OPEN TO THE WORLD, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY REFUTE. NEW ZEALAND HAS ALWAYS MARKED OUT ITS PATH AS AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN-POLICY VOICE BUT ALSO A WORLD LEADER. I WANT US TO BE SEEN TO BE OPEN TO IDEAS BUT A WORLD LEADER IN AREAS LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE CHANGE NOT CLOSE-MINDED BUT OUTWARD-FACING BUT LOOKING AFTER OUR INTERESTS. YOU MIGHT REFUTE IT, BUT THE MESSAGE THAT'S SENT TO INVESTORS AND TO THE GLOBE MIGHT BE THAT NEW ZEALAND IS LOOKING MORE INWARD AND MORE WORRIED ABOUT BANNING FOREIGNERS FROM BUYING HOMES. WELL, GIVEN THAT, ACTUALLY, MOST OF OUR TRADING NATIONS WHO'VE RECENTLY SIGNED FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS HAVE DONE EXACTLY THE SAME THING. I DOUBT THEY` BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME LUXURY AS THEM. I DOUBT THEY LOOK UPON US AS DOING ANYTHING THEY WOULDN'T CONSIDER DOING FOR THEMSELVES. WE'RE $200 BILLION IN DEBT TO THE WORLD. WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF MAKING SURE THAT HOUSING IS AFFORDABLE? WE DO. WE ARE A PROSPEROUS NATION. IF YOU CAN'T GET THE MOST BASIC THING RIGHT AS ENSURING YOUR PEOPLE ARE HOUSED IN AFFORDABLE, DRY HOMES, THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY WE CAN PROMISE TO BE TO ANYONE. SO IS THAT A HIGHER PRIORITY THAN SECURING A TRADE DEAL INVOLVING JAPAN, THE WORLD'S THIRD-LARGEST ECONOMY? I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THEY'RE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. WOULD YOU WALK AWAY FROM THE TPP, INVOLVING JAPAN, OVER THAT ISSUE? AGAIN, THAT'S NOT NECESSARY. OUR VIEW IS THAT IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO BALANCE OUR DESIRE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PROVIDE HOUSING WITHIN OUR DOMESTIC HOUSING MARKET THAT'S AFFORDABLE BY EASING DEMAND AND BANNING FOREIGN SPECULATORS FROM BUYING EXISTING HOMES, WHILST MEETING OUR TRADE GOALS AS WELL. HAVE YOU CONSIDERED OTHER MECHANISMS THAT WOULD DO THE SAME THING? LOOK, WE'LL BE LOOKING TO WAYS THAT WE CAN BALANCE THAT DESIRE TO BAN FOREIGN SPECULATORS. WHICHEVER MECHANISM WE USE TO DELIVER IT, THAT IS OUR GOAL. IS YOUR COALITION PARTNER COMFORTABLE WITH PROGRESSING THE TPP? LOOK, WE ALL SEE THE NEED TO GROW EXPORTS FOR US TO SEE EXTRA VALUE GAINED FOR OUR EXPORTERS. THAT IS A CONSENSUS AMONGST US. THERE ARE CONCERNS WITH THINGS LIKE ISDS CLAUSES. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK THROUGH. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, ARE YOU GOING TO GO TO APEC? YES. DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GO THERE AND CONVINCE THE OTHER PARTIES TO RENEGOTIATE THIS DEAL? I MEAN, YOU'RE UNDER A LOT OF TIME PRESSURE, BECAUSE THEY'VE ACTUALLY BEEN WORKING ON THIS RIGHT UP TO THE LAST MINUTE. THEY WANT A DEAL SIGNED, DON'T THEY? AND YOU'VE GOT TO GO THERE AND TRY AND CONVINCE THEM TO HOLD OFF. MY JOB IS TO GO THERE AND CONVINCE THEM TO SIGN TO AN AGREEMENT THAT WILL BE IN OUR BEST INTERESTS AS WELL. I'M NOT GOING TO SIT OUT ON THIS TASK, ALREADY HAVING DECIDED IT'S TOO HARD. YOU DON'T FEEL THE PRESSURE OF SOME BIG PLAYERS ON THE WORLD STAGE THAT WILL BE WANTING YOU TO SIGN THAT? LOOK, I'VE OPERATED IN AN INTERNATIONAL ENVIRONMENT, ALBEIT A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ONE, BEFORE. I'M USED TO DIFFERENT FORMS OF NEGOTIATION IN THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT. ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE BRINGS THEIR OWN INTERESTS TO THE TABLE; THAT'S WHAT A NEGOTIATION IS. THAT'S WHAT WE'VE JUST HAD FOR THE LAST 10 DAYS. BUT MY JOB WILL BE TO ADVOCATE ON BEHALF OF NEW ZEALANDERS BOTH HOMEOWNERS, POTENTIAL HOMEBUYERS AND EXPORTERS. ON THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION, WINSTON PETERS SAYS IMMIGRATION IS ABOUT ETHNICITY. DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM? NO. DO YOU FIND THAT IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE WHEN YOU HAVE SUCH A DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED POSITION ON IMMIGRATION? NO. LOOK, I'VE HAD REALLY CONSTRUCTIVE ENGAGEMENT WITH MR PETERS AND WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST ON A RANGE OF ISSUES BUT INCLUDING ON IMMIGRATION. THERE ARE AREAS WHERE WE AGREE. THERE IS THAT STRAIGHT POPULATION GROWTH IS NOT AN ECONOMIC PLAN; THAT, YES, WE HAVE SKILLS NEEDS AND SKILL SHORTAGES. WE'RE BOTH ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ON THAT. OUR REGIONS, IN PARTICULAR, HAVE SKILL SHORTAGES THAT WE NEED TO MEET. BUT WE ALSO BELIEVE THERE ARE INFRASTRUCTURE PRESSURES, PARTICULARLY IN AUCKLAND, AND THAT IS OUR COLLECTIVE GOAL AND CHALLENGE TO MEET. WILL THERE BE A NEW SET TARGET? DO YOU NEED IT? IT'S COMING OFF ANYWAY. WE'VE NEVER FOCUSED ON A TARGET; WE'VE FOCUSED ON GETTING THE SETTINGS RIGHT IN OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM. WE CAMPAIGNED ON THAT, AND THAT IS WHAT WE CONTINUE TO STAND BY. THE AUSTRALIANS YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT GOING THERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. WHY SO KEEN TO GET THERE? THEY ARE OUR CLOSEST AND MOST IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP THAT IS CLOSER, BOTH IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC TIES` DO YOU THINK, PERHAPS, YOU GOT OFF ON THE WRONG FOOT WITH THEM, MAYBE, A LITTLE BIT? WELL, I WOULDN'T CHARACTERISE IT IN THAT WAY. SOME MIGHT. LOOK, THE ISSUE EARLY ON IN MY LEADERSHIP AROUND CITIZENSHIP AND MR BARNABY JOYCE, YES, CERTAINLY MADE SOME HEADLINES. MY GOAL IS TO CONFIRM THE STRENGTH OF OUR RELATIONSHIP BY CONVERSATION WITH MR MALCOLM TURNBULL. PRIME MINISTER TURNBULL THIS WEEK WAS WARM AND FRIENDLY. MY INTENT IS TO ABSOLUTELY BUILD ON THAT IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP. I WONDER IF I COULD FINISH ON THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE. YOU TALKED A LOT ABOUT THIS IN THE CAMPAIGN. CAN YOU GIVE US SOME TANGIBLE WAYS IN WHICH PEOPLE WILL START TO SEE YOUR GOVERNMENT TAKING REAL ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE? THINGS THAT WILL ACTUALLY AFFECT THEM ON A DAILY BASIS. ONE OF THE GREATEST DIFFERENCES WE CAN MAKE IS CHANGING UP OUR TRANSPORT OPTIONS, MAKING SURE WE HAVE TRANSPORT OPTIONS THAT ARE LOW-EMISSION. ALSO, FOR NEW ZEALAND'S PROFILE, MAKING SURE THAT WE MAKE USE OF THE MARGINAL AND STEWARDSHIP LAND WE HAVE. PLANTING TREES WILL MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO NEW ZEALAND'S NET CARBON EMISSIONS. SO FAIR TO SAY THERE WILL BE A MINISTRY OF FORESTRY COMING? ABSOLUTELY. AND WILL THEY BE PLANTING A LOT OF TREES? ABSOLUTELY. JACINDA ARDERN, I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF ` EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. COMING UP ` GREEN PARTY LEADER JAMES SHAW. FOR THE FIRST TIME, HIS PARTY WILL HAVE MINISTERS. HE'S CALLING IT AN 'HISTORIC MOMENT' FOR THE GREENS. YOU'LL HEAR FROM HIM NEXT. GOOD MORNING TO GREEN PARTY LEADER JAMES SHAW. Good morning. How are you feeling? Delighted, really good. The Kermadec Marine reserve. Is that gone? There are obviously a lot of issues to work through. It is a copycat issue. The Winston Peters relationship with the fisheries industry. Is it in jeopardy? As the sanctuary in jeopardy? It is a complicated issue. We absolutely need to work alongside Maori to make sure that happens. Thursday night ` you look pretty stoked on Thursday night, and I would imagine what happened a it would be a position you are happy to be in? This is the first time that we have ever had ministers. We have a pretty extensive policy program to work through. The Prime Minister will make an announcement next week ` the areas that we campaigned on. We are finally going to see some aaction in areas that we campaigned on. Are you in government or sort of an government? You have ministers outside of cabinet. What say do you actually have? It's a different status to being inside cabinet, but in practical terms it is not actually that different. Ministers outside cabinet will still attend cabinet committees, where things get thrashed out. They will attend cabinet for portions of the agenda that in practical terms it does make a huge difference. New Zealanders won't be able to distinguish` they were just think of us as the government. We are in a confidence and supply arrangement supporting a labour New Zealand first government. In terms of climate change job, that was in cabinet. It is now going to be outside cabinet. What does that say about the importance put on the job? I think if you listen to Jacinda Ardern and the opening weeks of her leadership of the Labour Party, she said climate change was one of the biggest challenges facing New Zealand and the world. It will be at the top of the government's agenda. It doesn't actually make that much difference whether the person who holds that role is outside cabinet or inside it. What change are we actually going to see? Transport is one of the most visible areas where you would start to see some action. Much greater uptake of electric vehicles, led by the government itself. Public transport in an urban design. Those other things that the public will see first. We are hoping to move fast on reform of the energy market to get to 100% renewable energy generation. Those are the things that most people will see in the mid term this is been your stock and trade ` Winston Peters, your relationship with him and his view on the Greens party. How will you manage that? I think I said this the other night. There is a lot of mythology about that relationship that stems back 12 years to 2005. Some of it is not mythology. He called the Greens party an albatross around the labours neck. He also called us Kermits. It's all just campaign talk and I don't worry about it too much. His relationship with me as I was been very cordial. How much have you talked to him? I have not actually seen him since the election. It was that he was going into partnership with labour. Was that gutting? If you look at the history of MMP, every government formed since 1996, the largest party always put parallel agreements with its support partners and those become public after. This is no different in that sense. Your relationship with Jacinda Ardern ` you go a long way back. With Winston Peters, even the most optimistic person there is work to be done. What will you talk to him about? About having a stable and responsible government and that the work program over the next three years is carried out. The most important thing is that we have also good working relationships with a number of his Mps. Very constructive relationships between our Mps and their Mps. That is where a lot of the work will happen. A lot of this type. *hype more people are interested over about what we get done over the course of the next three years. You need a coleader. Who will that be? I cannot comment. There are a number of potential nominees. We are just getting through. We now have to set up getting into government. There will be a recess. The 2020 referendum on legalising cannabis has leaked out. That will be a polarising thing for you to nail to your master early on? The public mood has shifted dramatically on that over the course of the last four years. If we tried this 10 years ago, it would not have a chance. With Helen Kelly's campaign and medicinal cannabis use made a lot of traction, and with Canada and six different US states and a number of other jurisdictions going to some kind of regulated market model. The sky has not fallen in, and they are seeing reduced harm and fewer people taking drugs. The trade being taken out of the hands of the gangs, reduced prison populations. All reasons why I think it is a good move. There should be a referendum still, Rather than the politicians making their minds up about that. We do want to gauge what the public sentiment actually is. Do you smoke yourself? No. It's not terribly good for you. I was just making a suggestion for you getting together with Winston. As far as medicinal cannabis and the broader use of it, those two issues have crossed over a bit cloudy. Somewhat conflated. You need to treat them separately. There will be some rapid movement on medicinal cannabis in a reasonably short term. Why do use is more of a broader public health issue, and that is why will take it to the public. Cleaning up water ` that is a big one for you. We are running out of time, but very quickly, what are your short-term goals by 2020? We have to help farmers to make the transition, and a lot of dairy farmers are heavily in debt from the acquisition of the land and the conversions. It is a pretty difficult time when the price of milk is still somewhat depressed. We will be pushing hard on making sure there is a package available for farmers to help them make that transition. To lower cow numbers? I don't think you will see too much activity on that in the near future. We are aiming to work with the market itself to say what are some things we can put in place to make the transition over the course of the next few years to more sustainable farming. STAY WITH US. THE PANEL'S NEXT. FAR TOO MANY NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE COME TO VIEW TODAY'S CAPITALISM NOT AS THEIR FRIEND, BUT AS THEIR FOE, AND THEY ARE NOT ALL WRONG. THAT IS WHY WE BELIEVE THAT CAPITALISM MUST REGAIN ITS RESPONSIBLE... ITS HUMAN FACE. THAT PERCEPTION HAS INFLUENCED OUR NEGOTIATIONS. NEW ZEALAND FIRST LEADER ` AND POSSIBLY THE COUNTRY'S NEW DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ` WINSTON PETERS, WHO DECLINED OUR INVITATION FOR AN INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL NOW ` AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER; MARAMA FOX ` MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER; JOHN TAMIHERE ` CEO OF THE WAIPAREIRA TRUST; AND KIM CAMPBELL ` EMPLOYERS AND MANUFACTURERS CEO. Kim, I will start with you. That was a gloomy business thing to hear from Winston Peters on Thursday night. What was the reaction? If there will be a downturn, it will be caused by Winston Peters. We agree that there is an inevitable correction going to come on Wall Street and it may come here as well. You can accent and uncoupling of what happens on Wall Street and what we do here. Our economic future is public policy. We will be watching what they do. This is a government according to Jacinda Ardern that will make big changes. What changes and when? The three leaders all agree on it. The big gap between the haves and have-nots that has grown in the last years is extraordinary. To have Kiwis living in parks and tents and poor accommodation ` we allow that to happen under our watch. There will be a greater emphasis on ensuring that all Kiwi babies, regardless of whether they live in a poor side of town of the top end of town, get a fair shot in education, health, welfare. There is a concentration on that. I was pleased about Winston Peters speech. This is not just about the top end of town, it is about all Kiwis. That is actually one of the biggest bonding is that these three have got in terms of concentrated effort. We have seen changes with the last Labour government, they were incremental changes. There will have to be quick at this time? They have got three years to try and prove they can make some solid moves towards the future. They have some challenges in front of them. Winston wants to take, for example, all references to the treaty out of policy. If you have targeted funding towards a group of people that are disproportionately disadvantaged in a country and happened to be one race, it looks like it is race-based. But it is just targeted funding towards the group they need the most support. Raymond, you have three leaders, and this is the first time we have had a proper coalition for quite a while, and one of them is not playing too nice ` how do you manage them? It's funny how Jacinda Ardern refers to Winston as Mr Peters. But she talks about James Shaw as James. That suggests measure of respect Winston Peters and his experience and maturity within her cabinet. I think that she will make every effort ` initially, there will be a honeymoon period. We are expecting that will go for some time. It is fiendishly difficult to run a three party government. There will be a lot of goodwill towards Jacinda Ardern and labour and New Zealand first of the next short while, it is how they exploit that opportunity that will be the turning point. It is inevitable that she will do things that Winston Peters does not like or agree with. He will be stuck with the collective responsibility of cabinet. He cannot leave the cabinet room and disagree with their decisions. One of the advantages with labour is holding Winston to a coalition agreement as it will hold back what he has to say in terms of criticism. It will show the public and his colleagues that he is united in the decisions. What did you make of what James Shaw had to say? Are they really are part of this government? There is everything from in the tent in cabinet and outside the tent, outside of cabinet. The greens are outside of cabinet. But this is the first time they have had ministers. Once you have ministerial offices and clout and leverage, you lift your game. This is going to be a really special and important moment for the greens. Particularly about survival into 2020 and building their cause and vote. Here's the thing ` we have to give these guys a chance. The unions are banging away and wanting all sorts of things. There are lambs under national, lions under labour. Everyone has to settle down and give these guys a shop. It is worth pointing out that James is pretty right in terms of the role of a support party. They will sit in cabinet for the responsibilities of their portfolio. But the rest of the decision, they are outside of the cabinet discussion. They are then free to disagree with the government of the day on any issue that they disagree with. They have the opportunity of distancing themselves from the government. I think they will find that is not as easy as they think, because we used to do that all the time. If he is a confidence and supply partner, then they hold the balance of power in every piece of legislation that goes on. They will have good negotiation power within the areas of their bills that they disagree with. Had it been a national and New Zealand first ` how would you be feeling now? We are always very pragmatic, and I think James is a pragmatic person, similar to me. We have had a number of discussions. They are set to do the best that they can with all the opportunities they have. If they sit outside government as a confidence and supply partner, then they will have considerable power to change bits of legislation that will benefit their policy and direction. I think they do have a coleader who sits outside a ministerial post, then they have a lot more freedom to speak up when they disagree. Let's talk about ministerial roles. Kelvin Davis will be relieved of one of his jobs. The devil is in the detail. We will be extraordinarily surprised by a number of the agreements that labour has negotiated. Greens and New Zealand first. To be speculative would be tough. There is no doubt that kelvin, by convention, as the deputy leader of the party, will be in the cabinet. Nanaia is also in cabinet. We do not know what those negotiations are going on right now. It would appear that Nanaia Mahuta, Tuku Morgan, 9000 seat majority, 21 years in the house, a cabinet minister with experience, is there for good reason. We will have to see how this plays out. It is very interesting to hear this ` if you look at the spaghetti bowl of policies which the three parties have across a whole range of civil society, the profound differences that sit on them, that they found any kind of agreement is to everyone's credit. Now we have a government. Jacinda Ardern's challenge, the biggest challenge ` for getting a pack and all the rest of the things` it is a huge management problem. She has got 28 in cabinet plus a few hangers on sitting outside. Typically in management, you would manage 10 people. If it gets more than that. The Lord was not in coalition with Winston when he had 12. Not that I'm here to give the Prime Minister any advice ` but the big job is to bring this together as a coalition. Get them to learn to work with each other and to settle their differences outside of the cabinet room and actually deliver on many of the very, I think, aspirational dreams that we have heard. That is the important thing. You find the things that you do agree on and you work on those. The things that you don't agree on, you will take longer time over the three years. Before everyone gets excited about this or that, wait till you see the coalition document. Out of that will cascade what we think the work streams will be. Let's talk about affordable housing. It is a huge topic. I think the management style adopted by Jacinda Ardern is going to be crucially important. Is she going to be a firm, hands-on manager, Rather like Helen Clark? Or a chairman of the board type manager? I think that is really important, because as Kim has said, it is a very difficult task that she has set herself. She is inexperienced. She will be relying on others for support. How she starts out will determine the success of this government. STAY WITH US. WE'LL RETURN WITH THE PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. WE'RE PROUD, AND I'M PROUD, THAT AS AN OUTGOING GOVERNMENT WE HAVE LEFT NEW ZEALAND IN GREAT SHAPE BY ANY INTERNATIONAL MEASURE. IT IS A MORE CONFIDENT COUNTRY WITH MORE ASPIRATIONS, PARTICULARLY AS IT RECOVERED FROM THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, AND WE WISH THE NEW GOVERNMENT WELL IN TAKING THE OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE ` WHICH IS A GENERATIONAL OPPORTUNITY FOR NEW ZEALANDERS TO BUILD ON THE ECONOMIC STRENGTH, BUT ALSO DEAL WITH LONGSTANDING ISSUES THAT NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO SEE DEALT WITH. NATIONAL PARTY LEADER BILL ENGLISH SPEAKING AFTER WINSTON PETERS' ANNOUNCEMENT ON THURSDAY. My iPad broke. Will we find out what National did not concede to Winston Peters? I doubt we will find out. I thought that was a very gracious speech by Bill English. Given that he did not have any advance warning of the results. He heard at the same time we did. I thought it was a very gracious speech. I do not think they will make political capital out of the deal with the New Zealand First and so on. I think they will regroup and rebuild, And I think they will be a phenomenal force in three years time. I do not expect National to go away. They have a lot of experience in the caucus. Will Bill English remain? How will they grow a support party? The problem is, they are unlikely to get to 50 percent at the next election. They will need support party. Will they persuade New Zealand First to shift over? Or are one of the small parties? I do not think ACT has a future. Will it be the Maori Party or some other party? Is it going to be the Maori Party, Marama Fox? . We were shackled to the National Party in our people did not like that. They saw the growing homelessness and poverty in the country, despite best efforts. We got the blame for it. I think if we are revitalised, And there is some serious soul-searching that needs to be done for the Maori Party. I think if 23 years old as the average age for Maori in this country, wwe will be the driving force later on. So if we have a Maori Party again that rises out of the ashes, Then that is where we need to be looking. They have a tall order, the Maori Party. We have a resurgent Labour led government. Iif they manage reasonably well, there is no catalyst to go anywhere else. I'm just setting out the optics here which are quite clear. Also to acknowledge Bill, I thought a gracious, dignified, respectful speech. That is mana in action. I think he should be acknowledged for that. . If he goes, who is the most likely successor to leave the National Party? I would not have a clue. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot. To me, this last election was Bill English is try on. It was his campaign. I do not want to be too critical of the rest of the team, but they were almost immiscible. Maybe that was a strategy. He got the majority of the vote. I think what they need to do is articulate more clearly Some of the things that they missed out on in this election. There is no doubt the electorate is interested in climate change and the environment. They care about these things. If you look at the mood in boardrooms, leaders and businesses are not happy about homelessness. We are citizens. We do not like the stuff. We want to see action on it. It is blindingly obvious about things like housing. A little bit more energy in the last government might have made a big difference. We cannot understand how Maori voted the way they did, and we think they will come back. I would not write them off at all. The National Party is strong. They will need mates, though. The problem with the whole electorate and all the politicians I still thinking along first past the post. You can see it in the ways the strategies are been developed. I think it is time for the electorate and the politicians to think in an MMP mentality. If you are outside the government you are not getting much done. In a true MMP environment, national and Labour might have talked. We haven't really seen MMP in action in quite some time. At the last election, we had a two-party election to some extent. We were told from time to time that that was exactly what it was. You need to grow in a constructive way. Potential partners in government. This goes back to Don brash in 2005, How he managed to win it on the National Party's behalf without really growing support among small parties. Labour has the advantage of having the Greens there. In the next three years. They will have New Zealand First in government. It behoves the National Party to work out how to strategise, and how to construct a small party to get back into government. To do it on their own will be a tall order. I think. The Maori Party would have enjoyed having a relationship with the Labour led government. Then we could have proved we could go either way. Congratulations to the Maori Mps who have ministerial roles. Are they going to be able to stand the pressure from Winston? Are we going to deep sea drilling and mining? Are we going to see te reo Maori come in as a compulsory language? We would like to see them strongly advocating for the rights and interests of Maori and Maori issues. We have a true MMP environment, Where leverage of third parties is quite strong. It is quite an exciting government. It is a change to government. We want to see if it all hangs together, as you indicated. I think it well. I think your point about Winston being treated respectfully is right. He is the most successful politician in the last 20 years. He has to be given respect. He has not been, contrary to popular belief, Obnoxious or upsetting. What has upset him was when Shipley took over from Jim Bolger. That was in breach of the agreement. You have every right to oppose that. YOUR FEEDBACK AFTER THE BREAK AND A CHANGE OF TOPIC ` WHENA OWEN VISITS TUHOE LEADER TAMATI KRUGER. WHY HE BELIEVES THE UREWERA IWI IS ON THE PATH TO SELF DETERMINATION. THAT INTERVIEW IS NEXT. THERE'S ONE CORNER OF NEW ZEALAND NOT THAT INTERESTED IN WHAT A NEW GOVERNMENT CAN OFFER THEM. THE UREWERA TRIBE ` TUHOE ` HAS ALWAYS BEEN STAUNCHLY INDEPENDENT, AND NOW THREE YEARS ON FROM THEIR TREATY SETTLEMENT ARE ON A PATHWAY, THEY SAY, TO SELF DETERMINATION. WHENA OWEN WENT TO TANEATUA TO TALK TO IWI LEADER TAMATI KRUGER ABOUT SOVEREIGNTY, CATALONIA AND TUHOE'S FUTURE. (UPBEAT GUITAR MUSIC) THERE'S MUCH ABOUT THE RUATOKI VALLEY THAT NEVER CHANGES. BUT OVER IN TANEATUA, THE STRIKING TRIBAL HQ REPRESENTS A NEW, POST-SETTLEMENT ERA FOR TUHOE. (DOG BARKS) (DOG BARKS) BUT TUHOE HAS OFTEN BEEN DEFINED BY ITS PAST. LAST WEEKEND MARKED THE 10TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UREWERA RAIDS. IT WAS NEVER EVER REALLY ON OUR CALENDAR OF THINGS TO COMMEMORATE OR TO REMEMBER IN SOME WAY. DO YOU THINK THE MEDIA WAS MARKING IT MORE THAN`? I THINK SO, YES. THE MEDIA REMINDED US THAT IT WAS 10 YEARS AGO. (CHUCKLES) BUT I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IF TUHOE WANTED TO MEASURE THEIR ADVANCEMENT AND THEIR PROGRESS, PROBABLY 1867 WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER DATE TO START WITH, BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN THE CROWN DECLARED WAR ON US AND VOWED THAT ALL OF TUHOE SHOULD BE ELIMINATED. (PENSIVE MUSIC) IN 2014, THE CROWN APOLOGISED FOR PAST INJUSTICES AS PART OF THE TUHOE V CROWN SETTLEMENT. I CHOOSE TO CALL THAT THE SURRENDER OF THE CROWN. SO THEY CAME NOT ONLY TO APOLOGISE BUT TO SURRENDER AND ADMIT THAT THE PROGRAMME OF 170 YEARS TO SUPRESS TUHOE HAD BEEN A DISMAL FAILURE AND THAT NOW THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE OUR FRIENDS. AND WE ACCEPTED THAT CALL TO FRIENDSHIP, KNOWING THAT IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE A TESTY RELATIONSHIP, BUT, HEY, IT'S BETTER THAN THE ONE BEFORE THAT. ALONG WITH A $170 MILLION REDRESS AND THE RETURN OF TE UREWERA, THE FORMER NATIONAL PARK, THE SETTLEMENT CREATED A PATHWAY FOR TUHOE'S SELF-DETERMINATION, OR MANA MOTUHAKE, SO, WHAT LEVEL OF DEVOLUTION WOULD YOU SEE FOR TUHOE? THERE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT NEED TO BE SAID. ONE IS THAT ALL IWI ARE TRYING TO REHABILITATE THEMSELVES FROM 170 YEARS OF COLONISATION. NONE OF US ARE WELL, AND SO THE TUHOE MARCH TOWARDS MANA MOTUHAKE, WHICH IS MAXIMUM AUTONOMY, IS A MARCH TO HEAL THEMSELVES, AND IT IS, REALLY, TUHOE PUTTING THEIR HANDS UP AND SAYING, 'WE WISH TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OURSELVES. 'WE WISH TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE WE ARE NOT OWING ANYBODY ANYTHING. 'WE DO NOT WANT TO BE BENEFICIARIES. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE VICTIMS. 'WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SUBJECT TO SOMEBODY ELSE'S WILL. 'WE THINK WE CAN DO A LOT FOR OURSELVES.' (CROWD CHANTS) HAVE YOU BEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN, SAY, CATALONIA AND SPAIN... YES. ...AND SOME OF THESE OTHER...? WHAT INTERESTS YOU ABOUT THAT? WELL, WE WATCHED WITH INTEREST WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN SCOTLAND SOME YEARS BACK AS WELL. I THINK, UM... I THINK THE DEEP DESIRE BY PEOPLE TO BE FREE IS UNSTOPPABLE. IT'S A HUMAN URGE. BUT TUHOE IS ALREADY ON THE PATH TO MANA MOTUHAKE. THIS IS THE FIRST OF FOUR MEDICAL CENTRES IN THE ROHE. WE NEED TO DO ALL OF THAT FRONT-END STUFF ` THE PRINCIPLES, THE STANDARDS, THE DISCIPLINES THAT ARE REQUIRED, WHY IT IS THAT WE'RE DOING WHAT WE ARE DOING ` AND THEN WE CAN GET INTO, I THINK, THE MECHANICS OF IT ABOUT HEALTH, EDUCATION, WELFARE, ROADING, COMMUNICATION, HOUSING AND ALL OF THAT STUFF, WHICH ARE THINGS THAT WE ARE DOING THINGS ABOUT ` KNOWING THAT WE ONLY SETTLED WITH THE CROWN THREE MINUTES AGO. WELL, THREE YEARS AGO. AND IN THAT TIME, THEY'VE MANAGED TO DOUBLE THEIR SETTLEMENT FIGURE. BUT KRUGER IS DETERMINED TUHOE WON'T BE REDUCED TO A CORPORATION. WHAT'S YOUR RELATIONSHIP LIKE, AS AN IWI, WITH THE REST OF MAORIDOM? I THINK THAT OUR ISOLATION... FROM THE CROWN HAS ALSO MEANT AN AWKWARD DISTANCE FROM OTHER IWI. WE DON'T HAVE A HISTORY OF COLLABORATION OR BUSINESS WITH ANY OTHER IWI. WE HAVE KEPT ALOOF. AND FOR TUHOE, THERE'S ALSO AN ALOOFNESS WHEN IT COMES TO NATIONAL POLITICS. FOR TUHOE, WHILE WE PARTICIPATE AND ARE INTERESTED IN THAT, WE'VE NEVER SEEN PARLIAMENT AS RUNNING THE SHOW. (CLEARS THROAT) THE FUTURE OF TUHOE DOES NOT RELY ON PARLIAMENT, WELLINGTON, SO... I CANNOT RECALL AT ALL ANY TUHOE WANTING TO RUN FOR PARLIAMENT SERIOUSLY. IT'S NOT IN OUR RANGE AND SCOPE OF THINGS TO DO. IT'S NOT IN OUR RANGE AND SCOPE OF THINGS TO DO. IT'S NOT EVEN ON OUR BUCKET LIST. WE WILL NEVER EVER CONCEDE THAT OUR FUTURE IS DETERMINED BY WELLINGTON. IT WILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT. AND TAMATI KRUGER WILL DISCUSS TUHOE INDEPENDENCE FURTHER WHEN HE DELIVERS THE ANNUAL BRUCE JESSON LECTURE IN AUCKLAND AT THE END OF THE MONTH. Martin is it realistic what they are aiming for? Complete autonomy. I believe it is. That is what we aim for. Autonomy means we exist as a part of the New Zealand wider Sidey. But having independence, we can actually be independent of the government and not codependent on it. That was always our aim` to put money back into the hands of the community. Which is why we wanted to do more and more of that. The national government, for all of their bruises and cynicism. Sometimes, were actually willing to allow us to try and do that. I think that is where the Maori Party wanted to go. So people in the community could determine whether money was be spent. What is going to be the turning point for something like that to happen? If anyone will get there, it will be Tuhoe. You have to acknowledge the outstanding leadership of Tamati Kruger. He goes down as one of our great leaders of this new century. You have to understand the historical background. They were one of the last groups to be totally colonised in New Zealand. They have been staunchly and strongly held together. Succeeding is a stretch, but when I talk, autonomy, I don't need bureaucrats in Wellington. Our ability to scope and redeploy assets, is now open for a local conversation. As opposed to being drip fed out of Wellington. Is the governance there? Is it going to be well governed? Will there be transparency? Of course. You talk about Marie in deficit terms, on the actions of one percent of Maori. But we don't. What are your thoughts on Catalonia? As someone who has seen the independence movements in Scotland, I have sympathy for independence movements. I do think it is scary for a lot of New Zealanders. Particularly when you talk about one iwi. I think devolution is something we should be moving towards. The Swiss model, for instance. I think that is where we should be going.