MORENA. GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. LABOUR CAMPAIGNED HARD ON FIXING OUR HOUSING PROBLEMS ` BUILDING MORE, GROWING OWNERSHIP, STRENGTHENING TENANTS' RIGHTS AND ENDING HOMELESSNESS. CAN THEY DO IT? JESSICA MUTCH WILL BE INTERVIEWING THE HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT MINISTER PHIL TWYFORD, OUR LEAD INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. THEN POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN'S INTERVIEW WITH JACINDA ARDERN ON REFUGEES, PEACEKEEPING AND ISRAEL. WAS MURRAY MCCULLY, WHEN HE WAS THE FOREIGN MINISTER, WAS HE OUT OF LINE TO CO-SPONSOR THE MEASURE CONDEMNING THE ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS? AND WHENA OWEN INTERVIEWS THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK ON MINING AND OIL EXPLORATION. AFTER MANY YEARS OF HEATED DEBATE IN NEW ZEALAND, CAN WE FIND A MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN THOSE FOR AND AGAINST? WE ARE IN A LULL AT THE MOMENT, AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AGAIN. CAPTIONS BY JAKE EBDALE AND SHRUTIKA GUNANAYAGAM. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; NICOLA WILLIS, FORMER NATIONAL PARTY CANDIDATE FOR WELLINGTON CENTRAL AND FONTERRA EXECUTIVE; AND JOHN TAMIHERE, FORMER LABOUR MP, NOW CEO OF THE WAIPAREIRA TRUST IN AUCKLAND. BUT FIRST, HERE'S JESS WITH PHIL TWYFORD. THANKS, GREG. AND JOINING ME NOW IS PHIL TWYFORD, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT MINISTER. You asset to build 100,000 houses over the next 10 years. On average that works out to be 27 per day. How is that doable? Everyone knows that we inherited a mess, but I am confident that we are up for the job. In our first hundred days we are taking the first steps to setting up KiwiBuild, our housing commission to lead the development of big urban development projects. We are banning foreign buyers. Where passing legislation that will make it illegal for landlords to rent out cold and damp homes. We have hit the ground running, and I know expectations are high. We make no apologies for being ambitious about fixing this problem. We have a social and economic disaster about this housing crisis. You can build 27 houses per day? We will build more than that. More than hundred thousand over the next 10 years? We will build affordable homes for families to buy. We will do that in the context of large urban development projects with all kinds of different housing types, including open market housing. The price of a house that you say is affordable, 600,000, and then 500,000 for an apartment or townhouse, how will you get the developers in on this? A three bedroom townhouse in three Kings is $1.3 million why would they be interested? We have a massive failure in the bottom end of the market. Developers aren't building affordable homes, because they are in the business to make a dollar. We will choose to make affordable homes at scale and large amounts. We know we can do it because there are some people that are choosing to build them. The differences are under labours KiwiBuild policy, we are doing it at scale. Will you subsidise the developers to try and entice them to build at a much cheaper rate? No. We are going out to mark and talk to developers about how the KiwiBuild offer will work, and we will say to them, "if you are building a development with 400 townhouses or terraces, you can make a share of them affordable. There is only a portion. How will you build the $600,000 homes? We are confident they will build them if we are offering the scale they need. Uncertain access to finance means a lot of these developments are falling over. We will take some of the risk out of it and speed them up and guarantee a supply of affordable homes. How will you do that? You go to a developer at the moment 10% on average. You say you want 50% to be affordable homes ` that brings down the value of the development. But we will speed things up and that will be good for the developers bottom line. When we do 10,000 KiwiBuild homes a year, construction companies can sharpen their pencil and save on building supplies. You have your doubters on this, including the Reserve Bank. It says it's more likely to be 5000 houses rather than 10,000 because private activity will decrease. There are doubters. This is the Reserve Bank. They sameness based on some Treasury advice. So that advice was wrong? They made certain assumptions without looking at all aspects of our policy. We know that workforce constraints are a big issue. You are saying that the Treasury advice was incorrect? Yes I am. The advice was based on incorrect information. We have talked about the policy and I am confident we will move ahead and be on the same page. That advice was based on there being constraints. We are going to throw open the doors of the politics and massively increase apprenticeships and construction trades. We will grow` you are cutting immigration. We will bring skilled tradespeople from overseas. We are going to address these constraints. I make no apologies for being ambitious. This is a crisis. Who will get these homes? Will they be means tested? They won't. We will build affordable houses and ballot them. Does that seem fair? We want these homes to be available to first-home buyers. We have to ballot them in the first place. That is the fairest way to do it. We don't want to set up a bureaucratic means regime. Is and that the point at being bureaucratic? Don't you want to ensure the people in the greatest need get the first wave of homes? We want to ease the housing crisis all across the board. We want to build more state housing and make life easier for renters. It is not the first KiwiBuild house that is the most important; it is the last one. When we build the last one it means we have fixed the crisis. Kiwis will have a crack at the dream of affordable housing. Because we have the house prices in Auckland being so expensive, the very people we need to keep the economy ticking over can't afford to live in the city. The only stable way to fix the problem as the tackle the demand and the supply factors that have given Auckland some of the most expensive housing in the world. That is taxing speculators and massively increasing housing. Why not give those first houses to police and teachers to make it easier? It would be virtually impossible to do that in a way that is fair and efficient. The answer to this problem is to build more houses. And to give it to the people that need it the most. We are not in the business of setting up an bureaucratic system to cater to that need. I don't know how you would do that. How many new steakhouses would you build on top of the KiwiBuild homes? We want to be ambitious and build 2000 extra steakhouses a year. CORRECTION: state houses. There is a 27% increase on the waiting list compared to last year. This is not only the fact that we have a shortfall of 27,000 homes, but what is also disturbing as when I look on the data on homelessness and emergency housing, there has been a huge suppressed unmet need for housing, overcrowding. When we have a big public debate about it, more services are being provided and more houses. There is more demand coming out of the woodwork. There is a blanket ban on selling state houses you said. There are a lot of Housing New Zealand themselves saying you need two, three bedroom homes. You will be selling some? They negotiated selling 2 � thousand state houses in Christchurch. How many is it? It is not a blanket ban. We said we will stop the blanket sell-off of state housing. You are crazy not to sell off one here and there to maintain the portfolio. We are going to build thousands of extra state houses. When you say that, how many? Can you give us a ballpark figure? Less then the 2000 that National were selling? If the former government had built a couple of thousand more, we would be a couple of thousand ahead. We wouldn't have as big of a homelessness problem. Whena Owen did a story when she spoke to growers and Pukekohe that they were concerned you would allow building on their soil. saddening. We should be building over our inferior soils. Nick Smith pass it off as a special housing area. As being fast tracked, the building. Food security should be at the foremost of everybody's minds in New Zealand. I would like to speak to the Minister of Housing and show him what is going on here. I would like to see him face-to-face and ask him ` is he going to keep taking these valuable soils or see it our way and put the brakes on it? What is your answer to that question to that grower? I share his concern, and I don't want to see special areas, whether it's Pukekohe all the Waitakere ranges, swallowed up by housing. The former government had crazy plans to build on parks. How will you stop it? Auckland Council's unitary plan protects all of the top growing soils out in Pukekohe. I want to see a planning system that allows our city to make room for growth but protects areas of special value for future generations. If you put a little area like this around and build houses right up to it, you have irrigation and spraying issues. That is right, and that is the job of Auckland's unitary plan. That story largely happened due to zoning decisions and without good planning being done. Would you have a chat to those growers in the next few months? I would be happy to. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON ` YOU CAN EMAIL US AT ` OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO ` WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. AND LATER, WHENA OWEN MEETS A MINING EXPERT WHO SAYS NEW ZEALAND IS STILL CONSIDERED FRONTIER LAND IN THE GLOBAL MINING AND EXPLORATION INDUSTRY ` WITH PLENTY OF COWBOYS TO BOOT. MORE ON THAT LATER. POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; NICOLA WILLIS, FORMER NATIONAL PARTY CANDIDATE AND FONTERRA EXECUTIVE; AND JOHN TAMIHERE, FORMER LABOUR MP, NOW CEO OF THE WAIPAREIRA TRUST IN AUCKLAND. 100,000 a year ` a house a day. Is that ambitious? That is very ambitious. The problem is turning housing around takes time. 100,010 years is a very easy number to remember. In three years time for the next election, it is very easy to divide the number 10,000 x 3 and say what have they done? These are numbers that will come back to haunt them. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with setting targets. Can they find the builders? Are they able to keep within the 600,000 In Auckland, particularly with the inflation with the Council revaluations. There are a lot of problems to face. There is nothing wrong with trying to achieve this. This is where the rhetoric of opposition hits the reality of government. Phil Twyford has walked back a bit. He has said there are three ways they can do it. They can do Kiwi buy, an buy houses that are already built. They will take credit for housing developments there are already underway under national. And they will build new houses. Property developers are rubbing their hands with glee thinking about the subsidy. The price is $600,000. They will not want to come on board with that type of money. The volume changes the game. Most Kiwis uninterested in the politics of the numbers. They are interested that significant volume is coming to market. In the last 10 years, if you were a property developer in Auckland, you were heading double digits in terms of your margins. Someone who is charging 20 to 40% on the border, it is around $1200 a square meter more to build a house in New Zealand then and is in Australia. We need to assure that and every line, houses are becoming affordable. The Crown is still the biggest owner of land. Council is a large owner of land, and they will have to come to the party. The land and Pukekohe which is highly fertile which would have to be built on, you would have to make a move on land bankers that are holding up the whole shop. I am happy we have a drive on volume that will require an uptake on construction work. That is all fine and well, but how many corners are getting cut here? Will that be the situation that we had with leaky homes? If you look at Mangere, the way the previous governments up to the late 70s ran housing projects, they ran on volume, an state was a major player. The state has significant levers. New Zealand is running at record high employment and yet we don't have enough people and building and construction. There aren't enough people to build houses. Raymond, he said Treasury advice was wrong. It is not their Treasury. They are bureaucrats giving the advice, and says he has called them into the office and had a chat to them. It would be interesting to find out what has gone on, because normally politicians rely on bureaucrats to support the policies they are implementing. It will be interesting. It could cause some division of opinion between important bureaucrats within Treasury. We heard labour have inherited a mess. How long will that wash for? They will keep on saying it, and there is a measure of truth in that each government can see a mess they will tidy up. If you keep repeating it, people start getting restless. I think he has a short period of time. The last government was still reminding people that things had been bad under labour. The ballot side of things and not prioritising, as at the fairest way to give these houses to people, or should it be done by means testing? He must be afraid of the New Zealand Herald saying people aren't allowed to buy houses. Not everyone will win on the ballot. On the Treasury, I think there is really ominous. He says that if they don't agree with the numbers he will see that they do. Once you have to politicise public service, in the old days when the new mob came to take over, the problem is that a number of them are well paid and underperforming and deemed underwhelming. The call that reserve banks make has been contested before by both governments and opposition. This is important in terms of the debate. I don't have a problem with the Minister taking umbrage with the advice they have, because the advice has been set under different instructions. After the budget 2018, you will get a better view. In the time of the show, they would have built one house. The statehouse rollback, that is not a blanket ban. It would be fullest to have a blanket ban. There are small houses out on large sections in expensive parts of the country. It would be foolish not to free that up. What he wants to avoid is the wholesale sell-off of state houses. There is something this government has been strongly committed to. The sprawl into Pukekohe, there is a whole other problem. He was not prepared to say that if we want more houses in Auckland, we need it on land that hasn't been developed. These are the difficult issues that the Minister and government has to struggle through. The losses of the growers and Pukekohe other gains up and down the island. The question there is it is a value proposition, and have we got better land further south? With respect in the Waikato, we have got some. The losses for Pukekohe, when pressure comes on, there are other great soils to work on. WE'LL SWITCH FOCUS AFTER THE BREAK. POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN SAT DOWN WITH PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN TO FIND OUT HOW FOREIGN POLICY MAY CHANGE UNDER HER LEADERSHIP. THAT INTERVIEW NEXT. JACINDA ARDERN HAS RETURNED FROM HER FIRST TRIP OVERSEAS AS PRIME MINISTER. SHE MAY HAVE BEEN THE NEWEST LEADER THERE, BUT SHE CERTAINLY WASN'T SHY ABOUT RAISING SOME CONTENTIOUS ISSUES ` CLIMATE CHANGE, THE SOUTH CHINA SEA DISPUTE AND THE CRISIS IN MYANMAR, TO NAME A FEW. POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN SAT DOWN WITH HER AT THE END OF THE ASEAN SUMMIT IN THE PHILIPPINES AND ASKED IF SHE WAS TRYING TO CARVE OUT A NEW POSITION FOR NZ IN THE WORLD. I THINK, ACTUALLY, ALL I'M DOING IS RESTORING A ROLE THAT WE'VE PLAYED IN THE PAST. WE HAVE BEEN TRADITIONALLY ADVOCATES ON ISSUES THAT WE FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT. YOU CAN REFLECT ON OUR HISTORY, I GUESS, WITH NUCLEAR-FREE. WHEN THERE IS AN OCCASION FOR NZ TO USE ITS VOICE ON AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, WE HAVE. AND I THINK IT'S INCUMBENT ON US TO USE THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE TO PARTICULARLY BE ADVOCATES ON BEHALF OF OUR REGION. THERE ARE THOSE AROUND US WHO WILL BE AFFECTED DRAMATICALLY BY CLIMATE CHANGE, AND I FEEL A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY TO USE THE STAGE AND THE FORUM THAT WE HAVE TO RAISE THEIR PLIGHT AS WELL. SO ON THE ISSUE OF MANUS ISLAND, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A TAMPA MOMENT ` SO ON THE ISSUE OF MANUS ISLAND, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A TAMPA MOMENT ` THE TAMPA MOMENT WHEN I REFER TO HELEN CLARK. YOU TALK ABOUT BRINGING IT BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE WHEREBY YOU SEND A MESSAGE TO THE WORLD WHERE NZ SITS IN TERMS OF ITS VALUES. MM, ACTUALLY, IN THAT CASE AND OTHERS, I THINK IT'S AS SIMPLE AS JUST DOING THE RIGHT THING. THAT'S IT? THAT'S IT. AND YOU'RE PREPARED, FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN THIS WEEK, TO UPSET AUSTRALIA, TO POTENTIALLY PUT THEM INTO A DIFFICULT POSITION AND FOR THEM TO KICK BACK AT NZ, IF THAT WHAT IT TAKES? YEAH, LOOK, AND THAT'S GOING TO OCCUR FROM TIME TO TIME. I THINK WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BE PREPARED THAT, YES, SOMETIMES WHEN WE TAKE A VIEW, IT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE LOOKED UPON OR WELCOMED, NECESSARILY, BY THOSE THAT WE'RE INTERACTING WITH. BUT AGAIN, WE'VE GOT TO JUST SIMPLY DO WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE RIGHT. ON MANUS, I SAW AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US, ACTUALLY, TO PLAY A ROLE TO ASSIST AUSTRALIA, BUT ALSO TO PLAY A ROLE IN FULFILLING OUR INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO REFUGEES. WE'VE DONE THAT. YES, IT HAS RECEIVED PUSHBACK, BUT I STILL BELIEVE WE'VE DONE THE RIGHT THING. ON SOME OTHER ISSUES THAT I WANT TO BRING UP, AND AROUND THE ISSUE, I GUESS, ON THAT STANCE BEING PROGRESSIVE ` WAS MURRAY MCCULLY, WHEN HE WAS THE FOREIGN MINISTER, WAS HE OUT OF LINE TO CO-SPONSOR THE MEASURE CONDEMNING ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS? BECAUSE HE DID THAT` JUST FOR SOME CONTEXT, HE DID THAT WITHOUT CABINET APPROVAL. YEAH, INDEED. AND PUTTING ASIDE THE ISSUE, THE ONLY QUESTION THAT WE'VE RAISED IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE COULD'VE BEEN A BIT MORE OF A PROCESS BUILT AROUND IT. AND THAT'S THE ONLY` YOU CAN'T PUT ASIDE THE ISSUE. DO YOU SUPPORT HIM IN WHAT HE DID? BECAUSE A LOT OF PROGRESSIVE, LEFT-LEANING NZERS WOULD'VE ACTUALLY BEEN PRETTY PROUD OF MURRAY MCCULLY TAKING THAT STANCE. DO YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT HIS STANCE? WE SHOULD ABSOLUTELY USE THE VOICE THAT WE HAD IN A CRITICAL POSITION WITHIN THE U.N. AT THAT TIME ` A PARTICULARLY CRITICAL POSITION AT THAT TIME ` TO, YES, TAKE A STAND. THE ONLY ISSUE WE'VE RAISED IS WHETHER OR NOT A PROCESS COULD'VE BEEN GONE THROUGH TO INVOLVE AT LEAST THE GOVERNMENT ON THAT. PUTTING A CABINET MINUTE, FOR CONTEXT FOR VIEWERS, INTO THE COALITION AGREEMENT SENDS A PRETTY STRONG SIGNAL, BASICALLY, THAT YOU'RE SAYING HE WAS OUT OF LINE. SO THE MESSAGE TO THE WORLD IS THAT HE WAS ON HIS OWN, IT WAS A ROGUE DECISION, IT WASN'T NZ'S POSITION. I DISAGREE. BUT HOW ELSE CAN IT BE INTERPRETED? SIMPLY THAT WHENEVER A GOVERNMENT MAKES A DECISION, IT MAKES ONE AS A WHOLE. MINUTING THAT IT HAD MADE A DECISION AS A WHOLE WAS A SIMPLE REQUEST. THAT'S ALL THAT WINSTON PETERS IS TRYING TO GET AT BY PUTTING THAT MINUTE IN THERE? WELL, THAT'S A QUESTION FOR MR PETERS. THAT'S CERTAINLY THE POINT THAT WE'VE MADE. IT WOULD'VE TAKEN NO EXTRA TIME NECESSARILY TO MAKE SURE IT WAS SEEN TO BE AN ALL-OF-GOVERNMENT DECISION. MOVING ON TO OTHER ISSUES AROUND, AGAIN, YOUR TONE AND HOW YOU WANT TO BE A LEADER ON THE WORLD STAGE, COULD YOU SEE A ROLE WHERE THAT VIEW YOU HAVE ABOUT WANTING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE WOULD BE EXTENDED TO, SAY, INCREASE PEACE-KEEPING ROLES, A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ROLE FOR OUR MILITARY? OH, AND I'D SAY, BY AND LARGE, WE TEND TO PLAY THAT ROLE NOW. YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE ASSISTANCE AND CAPACITY BUILDING WE PROVIDE ON THE WORLD'S STAGE, IT IS OFTEN WITHIN THAT FRAME OF PROVIDING ASSISTANCE, TRAINING, SUPPORT, AID. THAT IS OUR TRADITION. OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO HAVE CAPABILITIES THAT GO BEYOND THAT. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR HISTORY, EVEN IN CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD WHILE I'VE BEEN HERE AROUND OUR HISTORY IN PLACES LIKE TIMOR-LESTE, THAT HAS BEEN OUR FOUNDATION. I MEAN, HAVE YOU GIVEN THE BROADER ISSUE OF WHERE YOU WANT NZ TO GO IN THAT GLOBAL CONTEXT A LOT OF THOUGHT? I MEAN, TO BE FAIR, YOU'VE ONLY BEEN IN THE JOB A VERY SHORT TIME. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'RE HERE, MAKING BIG COMMENTS, BIG STATEMENTS ON THE BIG STAGE. IS IT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE PERSONALLY THOUGHT ABOUT A LOT? YES, I HAVE. IT WAS SOME TIME AGO, BUT I WAS INVOLVED IN AN INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL YOUTH ORGANISATION THAT DID HAVE A VOICE AS A CONSULTATIVE STATUS WITHIN THE U.N. WE DID HAVE A VOICE, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE. AT TIMES, I REPRESENTED NZ; AT TIMES, I REPRESENTED THAT ORGANISATION AS A WHOLE. I'VE CERTAINLY GIVEN THOUGHT TO WHAT RESPONSIBILITY WE HAVE AS MEMBERS OF AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WHERE WE USE OUR VOICE AND WHY AND WHERE WE USE IT IN A WAY THAT'S CONSTRUCTIVE. WE'VE GOT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT OFTEN WE'RE COMMENTING ON ISSUES THAT WE MAY NOT OURSELVES BE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCING, CONFLICTS THAT ARE COMPLEX, SO MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING AND REALLY TAKE A PARTNERSHIP ROLE BUT ALSO BE A STRONG VOICE. BUT DO YOU FEEL AS A YOUNGER LEADER, THAT YOU ARE BRINGING A DIFFERENT VOICE AND THAT YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT TAKE ON THINGS? YES. YES, I DO. I MEAN, SITTING AROUND THE TABLE TODAY AS WE TALKED ABOUT SECURITY ISSUES, YES, I RAISED NORTH KOREA; I RAISED THE SOUTH-CHINA SEA, BUT I RAISED CLIMATE CHANGE, AND I WAS ONLY ONE OF TWO THAT DID. YES, I DO TAKE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, BUT IT'S ONE AS A MEMBER OF AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. REGARDLESS OF MY AGE OR GENERATION, I HOPE TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF NZ AND ITS VIEW AS AN INTERNATIONAL PLAYER. AS AN INTERNATIONAL PLAYER, WE HAVE TROOPS IN TAJI IN IRAQ STILL. MM. HAVE YOU FORMED A VIEW ON WHETHER WE NEED TO BE PULLING THEM OUT, WHETHER THAT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE CONTINUING TO DO? I WANT TO TAKE TIME ON THAT DECISION. OF COURSE, THE MANDATE IS UP FOR RENEWAL NEXT YEAR, AND I WANT TO USE THAT TIME TO MAKE SURE I FULLY APPRECIATE AND UNDERSTAND THE ROLE WE'VE PLAYED THERE AND WHAT DEMANDS ON US THERE MAY BE. BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S CONSIDERED. HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR VIEWS IN ANY WAY SINCE YOU'VE BEEN PRIME MINISTER, SINCE YOU'VE RECEIVED THE SECURITY BRIEFINGS? PRESUMABLY, YOU NOW KNOW ABOUT THE THREAT OF LOCAL TERRORISM, IF THERE IS AT ALL. I MEAN, JOHN KEY, THAT WAS A BIG ISSUE FOR HIM. HAS IT CHANGED YOUR VIEW NOW THAT YOU'RE SEEING THE REPORTS? KEEPING IN MIND I'VE HAD ESSENTIALLY MORE OR LESS THREE WEEKS IN THE JOB, I WANT TO DO MORE ANALYSIS. I WANT TO SPEND TIME TAKING ADVICE FROM MORE PEOPLE. I DO THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OF TERRORISM AND VIOLENT EXTREMISM, THAT THERE ARE A RANGE OF ROLES TO PLAY. AND WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT, YES, WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE A CONTRIBUTION TO MAKE BUT IN A NUMBER OF WAYS. IS THERE A THREAT TO NEW ZEALANDERS, IN YOUR VIEW? BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARGUED THAT JOHN KEY, FOR EXAMPLE, MIGHT HAVE OVERPLAYED THAT FOR PARTICULAR REASONS HE NEEDED TO GET SPY LEGISLATION THROUGH. YEAH. I'M STILL` NOW YOU'VE SEEN IT, HOW MUCH OF A THREAT IS THERE? I WANT TO SEE MORE. I'M STILL RESERVING MY JUDGEMENT. CAN NZ DO MORE TO HELP THE ROHINGYA PEOPLE AND THE ISSUE WITH MYANMAR? CAN WE DO MORE THERE? MM. MM. I'D LIKE TO THINK SO. THERE'S MORE CONVERSATIONS THAT I THINK NEED TO BE HAD. WE'RE USING DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS TO HAVE THEM. CERTAINLY, THERE'S AN ENORMOUS NEED. IS THERE A POSSIBILITY THAT WE WILL MAKE SOME SORT OF CONTRIBUTION TO SOME SORT OF GLOBAL EFFORT? YEAH, AS I SAY, WE'RE FOLLOWING DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS. CERTAINLY, I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT WE WOULD BE IN A ROLE TO BE SUPPORTIVE IN FINDING RESOLUTION, BUT THERE'S A BIT OF WORK TO BE DONE THERE. JUST ON THE ISSUE WITH CHINA, YOU DID SPEAK WITH PREMIER LI. WAS THERE ANY DISCUSSION`? DID HE RAISE OR DID YOU RAISE THE ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT LABOUR CLEARLY WANTS TO RESTRICT FARMLAND SALES? THAT'S BEEN A BIG ISSUE FOR THE CHINESE. NO, I DIDN'T RAISE IT, BUT NOR DID IT COME UP. PROBABLY, I WOULDN'T HAVE EXPECTED IT TO COME UP EITHER, GIVEN THAT CHINA ITSELF ALSO EXERCISES VARIOUS RESTRICTIONS AS WELL AND I THINK PROBABLY WOULD BE SYMPATHETIC TO THE FACT THAT, YES, WE NEED FOREIGN DIRECT INVESTMENT, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO PROTECT OUR DOMESTIC HOUSING MARKET TO MAKE SURE THAT IT REMAINS AFFORDABLE. WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED WHILE YOU'VE BEEN HERE ON THIS SUMMIT? HAS IT BEEN A BIG EYE-OPENER? AS I SAY, I MEAN, IT WAS A FEW YEARS AGO AND AT A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT LEVEL, BUT I'VE CERTAINLY PLAYED A ROLE IN INTERNATIONAL FORUMS BEFORE. SO I CERTAINLY HAD A SENSE OF THE SCALE, THE DIVERSITY OF THE ISSUES THAT MAY ARISE. THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THIS FOR ME HAS BEEN WHAT MORE CAN WE DO TO MAKE SURE THAT NZ USES THE VOICE IT HAS TO BEST EFFECT? HAVE YOU LEARNT, THOUGH, THAT YOUR WORDS WHEN YOU COME DOWN, WHEN YOU SPEAK TO MEDIA AT STAND-UPS, THAT THEY DO FOLLOW THROUGH AND THAT YOU CAN SOMETIMES GET KICKBACK, WHICH WE'VE SEEN FROM AUSTRALIA? OH, I WOULD EXPECT THAT. I ABSOLUTELY EXPECT THAT WHEN WE TAKE DIFFERING POSITIONS ON AN ISSUE, THAT WE MAY SEE A RESPONSE TO THAT. DOES THAT DETER ME? A REASONABLE RESPONSE, DO YOU THINK? OH, LOOK, YOU KNOW, (CHUCKLES GENTLY) I STILL MAINTAIN THE POSITION THAT I HAD AT THE VERY BEGINNING. I'M NOT DISSUADED FROM THE POSITION WE'VE TAKEN. YOU DON'T THINK THEY'RE BEING REASONABLE? I THINK THEY'VE GOT A POSITION, AND FROM THE BEGINNING, WHEN IT COMES TO, FOR INSTANCE, THE ISSUE THEY'VE HAD THAT MAKING SURE THAT THE AMERICAN DEAL IS FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, I APPRECIATE THAT; I UNDERSTAND THAT. I'VE PUT UP A FEW ALTERNATIVES TO TRY AND WORK THROUGH THAT. BUT I STILL MAINTAIN THE POSITION THAT WE HAVE. BUT WE'VE PUT UP, ALSO, SOME ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS. IS IT A POSITION THAT YOU FEEL IS MORE COMPASSIONATE THAN THEY ARE TAKING? I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT. ALL I CAN DO IS REPRESENT A VIEW ON BEHALF OF NZ. IT'S NOT FOR ME TO JUDGE THEIR POSITION. Prime Minister Jacinda Arden there. Manus Island, she needling the Australians too much. I think Kiwis love that. We have an unusual relationship with the Australians. They have become very harmonised with the US. New Zealand has always had a very clear strategic plan about where we stand with the protection of our own stubborn tea, CORRECTION: sovereignity attach it particularly under Labour governments. Helen on Iraq. Our right to express our own sovereignty Is good. I do not think that is going to be a difficulty for her in domestic politics. Bill English has said she is potentially damaging the relationship by pushing Malcolm Turnbull that hard. Is that showing too much respect for Australia? We trust our Prime Minister to build relationships with trading partners. First you have to establish trust before you make because. How are the Australians going to trust our new Prime Minister? In the election campaign, there were questions around Julie Bishop and Chris Bishop that led to destabilisation. We all have compassion for the humanitarian situation. But this is a bigger issue. When this policy has been relaxed in the past, we have seen literally hundreds of people diet see when they have tried to come to Australia. That is very much in the mind of the Australian government. I think it is perfectly fair, what she is doing. You can be too timid, too wimpish In your dealings with Australia. If they want to do something, they will do it. Having lived in three countries adjacent to large countries, thinking because we are small, we are less important, that would be the worst possible thing. was an international foreign political affairs person. Although she is highly articulate, very fluent, her lack of experience and foreign affairs shows through. She is on a steep learning curve. To be fair, John Key did not have much experience in foreign affairs when he became prime minister. Helen Clark was an exception. She has been interested in foreign policy all her life. could climate change and refugees become her Tampa? Is that what she is building towards? She is not going to shoot 18 holes of golf with the person who runs a Straley. CORRECTION: Australia she is not going to havethe blokey relationship that John had. She has only been in the game for three weeks. You have to give this new prime minister a bit of breathing space. We will see how it looks in the New Year. Much has been made of the age thing. She is half the age of Donald Trump. She is not in the same ballpark as Malcolm Turnbull Andries A. teresa may. I am a year younger than her, and I don't think that is an issue. She likes those issues that don't had the minds of the everyday New Zealand. She has supported TPP, when that goes against many of her constituency and the Green party. That is brave. Nought should she have to play 18 holes, for what sort of relationship will she have? In the end, people will respect her ability to maintain trust and relationships. She is going to reflect on some of these more difficult issues over the next few weeks, and we should respect that. She needs to be fearless. It is a formidable line-up of people she has been dealing with and the last couple of weeks. She was a prime minister it for a matter of days, and she is rubbing shoulders with the President of the United States and the Australian Prime Minister her confidence comes through, and we should admire that. She is our representative now. And she is standing up for the issues that are important to New Zealand. Our leader is someone we should support on these issues. Is that likely to be at for her in the sense of the overseas stuff at the moment and we are going to see more of Winston Peters? She is on the bill as the prime minister. She she is very young on the world stage. David Parker as trade Minister. He is capable and competent. Winston is capable and competent as foreign Minister. On the international front, we are going to be worried presented from that smorgasbord of individuals. Decisions will be made collectively. It is a formidable group of well renowned foreign policy experts who she will be relying on for advice, not to mention the Ministry of foreign affairs and trade. WHENA'S INTERVIEW WITH THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK ON OIL MINING AFTER THE BREAK. IS IT TIME TO END MINING ONCE AND FOR ALL? SEFTON DARBY ARGUES THE ISSUES ARE MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN YES OR NO. THE CONSERVATION MINISTER HAS DECLARED THAT SHE WILL BLOCK ANY NEW MINING PROJECTS ON CONSERVATION LAND. IT'S A PREDICTABLE MOVE AFTER NINE YEARS OF ENTHUSIASTIC SUPPORT FOR DIGGING AND DRILLING UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, ACCORDING TO THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK ON THE MINING DEBATE. SEFTON DARBY SAYS NEW ZEALAND NEEDS A MORE MATURE APPROACH TO DECIDING THE FUTURE OF MINING AND OIL EXPLORATION. HE SPOKE TO WHENA OWEN. NEW ZEALANDERS EXPECT THAT OUR PROTECTED LANDS ARE PLACES WHERE NATURE CAN THRIVE. I KIND OF THOUGHT IT WAS THE INEVITABLE SWING OF THE PENDULUM BACK AGAINST THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT'S VERY BLATANT PRO-INDUSTRY STANCE. THIS IS MINING COMMENTATOR SEFTON DARBY, AND HE SUGGESTS BANNING NEW PERMITS ON CONSERVATION LAND IS NOT THAT EASY. THERE ARE PROBABLY A SMALL NUMBER OF PROJECTS WHICH AREN'T MINING PROJECTS BUT WHERE THE COMPANIES HAVE INVESTED QUITE A LOT IN EXPLORATION. AND SO THAT WILL BE A BIG QUESTION FOR THE NEW GOVERNMENT ` ABOUT HOW DO THEY TREAT COMPANIES THAT HAVE GOT EXISTING PERMITS. IT'S BEEN AN INTERESTING DECADE IN THE MINING SECTOR. AFTER THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, NEW ZEALAND LOOKED TO ITS EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THAT OPTION WAS GRASPED WITH SUCH HASTE, THE PROCESSES YOU WANT AROUND IT, THAT WE ENDED UP WITH THE MESS THAT WE HAD AROUND SCHEDULE 4, FOR EXAMPLE. SCHEDULE 4 WAS PROPOSED BY THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, DESIGNED TO OPEN UP MINERAL EXPLORATION ON HIGH-VALUE CONSERVATION LAND ` UNTIL HEATED OPPOSITION PUT A STOP TO THE PLAN. (CROWD CHANTS) DARBY INSISTS NEW ZEALANDERS ARE TOO POLARISED WHEN IT COMES TO MINING AND THAT'S NOT HELPFUL. SO BOTH SIDES OF THE EQUATION NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. YOU OFTEN HEAR INDUSTRY PUTTING THAT ARGUMENT OUT AND SAYING, 'OH, WELL, YOU'RE HYPOCRITES, 'BECAUSE YOU'D HAVE TO SHUT THIS ALL DOWN,' AND IT'S MORE A WAY OF SHUTTING DEBATE. BUT I THINK IT'S A GENUINE QUESTION, AND IT'S SOMETHING WHICH I HOPE THE GOVERNMENT WILL LOOK AT. I HOPE THEY'LL LOOK AT FUEL EFFICIENCY OF THE VEHICLE FLEET. I HOPE THEY'LL LOOK AT HOW OUR FACTORIES ` PARTICULARLY DAIRY FACTORIES IN THE SOUTH ISLAND ` FUEL, BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, IT'S WEST COAST COAL. I HOPE THEY'LL LOOK AT THOSE MATERIALS-USE QUESTIONS, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT FOR US TO SAY, 'WE'RE JUST NOT GONNA PRODUCE, BUT WE'RE STILL GONNA CONSUME,' BECAUSE THE END POINT OF THAT IS IT TAKES PLACE ` JUST IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE CREDIBILITY, THOUGH, IF YOU'VE BEEN... A SPIN DOCTOR? YOU'VE BEEN A SPIN DOCTOR FOR A LARGE ` A VERY LARGE ` AMERICAN MINING COMPANY. I FEEL LIKE I'VE GOT A PRETTY MIXED BACKGROUND, AND WHEN PEOPLE SAY, 'WELL, HE HASN'T GOT AN ARGUMENT, 'BECAUSE OF THAT 20% HE SPENT ON INDUSTRY,' WELL, I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER PERSUADE THOSE PEOPLE. BUT EXPERIENCE IN THE INDUSTRY MEANS DARBY HAS BEEN PRIVY TO INSIDE INFORMATION. HE WARNS THAT THERE ARE COWBOYS IN THE INDUSTRY HERE. CERTAINLY, THE NATURE OF NEW ZEALAND IS THAT WE HAVE TENDED TO ATTRACT SOME COMPANIES THAT ARE MORE SPECULATIVE RATHER THAN, KIND OF, LARGE, EXPERIENCED OIL AND MINING COMPANIES ` WELL, CERTAINLY ON THE MINING SIDE. AND HAVE THE REAL RESOURCES, YOU MEAN? AND HAVE THE REAL BACKUP? AND HAVE THE REAL BACKUP. WHEN OUR ROYALTIES ARE COMPARATIVELY TINY, WHY SHOULD WE LET WEALTHY COMPANIES FROM OVERSEAS COME AND TAKE OUR STUFF? THE ROYALTIES QUESTION IS AN INTERESTING ONE, BECAUSE I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY OUR ROYALTIES REGIME IS REASONABLY ATTRACTIVE, SHALL WE SAY, AND PROBABLY ATTRACTIVE ENTIRELY TO TRY AND ENSURE THAT IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT PROHIBIT A COMPANY FROM INVESTING. AND SO THE QUESTION WOULD BE ` IF THERE WAS A BIG DISCOVERY IN NEW ZEALAND, WOULD YOU WANT TO KEEP THE ROYALTIES AT THE SAME RATE? THE OTHER QUESTION I'D PUT IS ` WITH THE ROYALTIES WE'RE COLLECTING, AT THE MOMENT, NONE OF THAT GOES BACK TO THE REGIONS WHERE THEY'RE GATHERED. AND THAT'S ACTUALLY REALLY UNUSUAL WHEN YOU COMPARE US TO PRETTY MUCH EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. BUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE OIL EXPLORATION COMPANIES THAT CAME HERE SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS AGO? THEY DESCRIBED US AS THE NEW FRONTIER ` THE TEXAS OF THE SOUTH. I REMEMBER ` I THINK IT WAS TAG PETROLEUM AT THE TIME WAS TALKING ABOUT NEW ZEALAND FLOATING ON A SEA OF PETROLEUM, AND, ACTUALLY, THAT KIND OF STATEMENT JUST RAISED EXPECTATIONS UP HERE AND THEN CRASHED THEM DOWN. I THINK, AGAIN, THAT KIND OF RHETORIC REALLY DIDN'T HELP THE INDUSTRY. CERTAINLY, SINCE 2012, 2013, WE'VE SEEN A REAL, KIND OF, CRASH OF COMMODITIES PRICES. BUT ONE OF THE POINTS THAT I MAKE IN THE BOOK IS, LOOK, THIS IS A LULL. THE DRIVE PARTICULARLY AROUND MINERAL RESOURCES AND PARTICULARLY AROUND GAS RESOURCES, THE LONG-TERM TRENDS ON THOSE MEANS THAT WE ARE IN A LULL AT THE MOMENT AND WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AGAIN. SO THEY'LL BE BACK? THESE COMPANIES WILL COME BACK. SEFTON DARBY TALKING TO WHENA OWEN THERE. AND HIS BOOK, 'THE GROUND BETWEEN: 'NAVIGATING THE OIL AND MINING DEBATE IN NEW ZEALAND', IS PUBLISHED BY BRIDGET WILLIAMS BOOKS. YOUR FEEDBACK AFTER THE BREAK. AND WE'LL LOOK BACK AT THE WEEK IN POLITICS. THE PANEL WITH THEIR PICKS FOR THE HITS AND MISSES OF THE WEEK ` NEXT. YOUR FEEDBACK NOW. JOHN MORONEY EMAILED ` HARISH PATEL TWEETED ` GRAEME TEXTED ` BACK TO OUR PANEL. Mining, are we a bit timid with what we are giving away and what we are allowing other countries to come and take from us? For New Zealanders, this comes back to jobs and incomes. If you think about the West Coast, 84% of the land of the west coast as public conservation land. People on the West Coast have a right to ask where their jobs are coming from. We never seem to get a hell of a lot further down the road about the debate in the middle. There are maniacs on both sides of the camp on the coral manual. CORRECTION: coromandel the day you birth the baby as the bay that that baby will consume something from somewhere. We cannot cleanse our conscious on the border and become a raving greenie. It depends on where you put the belts and braces on protecting things like the environment. New Zealand is only 5% above the water than the fourth largest continent in the world. Most of our minerals are offshore. The new world of mining will be extrapolating all of that from those domains, which is going to cause a huge debate. That was very scientific. I did not think that was going to happen! Hits and misses. Kelvin stood up as acting prime minister, and he can come across as ponderous, because he's not into the sharp repartee of the house. His ponderous nurse Is a price for that, so be it. That was a Miss there. Another must was Grant Robertson just has stop trying to give advice to everyone all the time. Hit ` National bringing flexibility to parents around paid parental leave so partners can take time off together. Miss Kelvin seems like a really likeable guy, but watching him in the house this week was painful. Watching him turn to his colleagues to tell what to say, particular Grant Robertson. He is pretty much the deputy leader in all but name, so why not given the role? A lot of people are apprehensive about the Greens and government, because they believe they were too unreliable. Almost at the beginning of the government, a rookie green sent out an email suggesting that they do a deal with the government. They support the waka-jumping legislation Labour as promoting in exchange for the government supporting one of their bills. It is not a good look at the beginning of a government. Hit ` that Winston Peters take a kapa haka group to North Korea and the suggestion being that some sort of diplomacy might work. One can imagine missiles flying at the same time as the group performance. MARAE IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS.