MORENA, GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M CORIN DANN. TODAY ` NEARLY SIX MONTHS INTO THE JOB, FINANCE MINISTER GRANT ROBERTSON SITS DOWN FOR A WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW. HOW WILL HE BALANCE THE BOOKS? WHAT HAPPENED TO CUTTING IMMIGRATION? AND CAN TEACHERS AND NURSES EXPECT A BIG PAY RISE? WE'RE ACUTELY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, TEACHERS, NURSES SAY THEY HAVEN'T RECEIVED THE DIVIDEND FROM THE GROWTH IN THE ECONOMY. THIS WEEK'S INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY ALSO MARKED THE BEGINNING OF A YEAR-LONG COMMEMORATION OF THE LAW THAT GAVE NEW ZEALAND WOMEN THE VOTE 125 YEARS AGO. NEW ZEALAND LED THE WORLD THEN, BUT ARE WE STILL IN FRONT TODAY? I'LL ASK MARILYN WARING, LEADING FEMINIST WRITER, ECONOMIST AND FORMER POLITICIAN. AND AN EXCLUSIVE REPORT FROM OUR US CORRESPONDENT REBECCA WRIGHT. AHEAD OF TRUMP'S VISIT NEXT WEEK TO THE MEXICO BORDER, And we are here on the US border, where as president Trump prepares to come and visit his prototype, we're looking at the issue of border protection from all sides. CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND CHELSEA BRADY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2018 LET'S START WITH SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS FROM THE WEEK. QUESTION ` WHY WAS TRADE MINISTER DAVID PARKER LOOKING SO PLEASED WITH HIMSELF AT THE SIGNING OF THE REVISED TPP DEAL IN CHILE? ANSWER ` PERHAPS ITS BECAUSE HE'S CONVINCED SCEPTICAL KIWIS HE'S ACTUALLY IMPROVED THIS DEAL, AND TRADE DEALS NOW LOOK A LOT MORE ATTRACTIVE IN LIGHT OF TRUMP'S TARIFF BOMBSHELL THIS WEEK. WHEN WE'RE DOWN BY $30B, $40B, $60B, $100B, THE TRADE WAR HURTS THEM; IT DOESN'T HURT US. QUESTION ` HOW BIG IS THE HOLE THAT'S BEEN LEFT IN THE NATIONAL PARTY CAUCUS AFTER STEVEN JOYCE'S EXIT THIS WEEK? ANSWER ` WELL, I HAVEN'T FOUND ANYONE WILLING TO SAY IT'S AN $11B HOLE, BUT IT IS, IN MY VIEW, A BIG LOSS FOR NATIONAL TO LOSE SUCH A BIG BRAIN, WHATEVER YOU THINK OF HIM. QUESTION ` ARE GESTURES LIKE MCDONALD'S FLIPPING THE 'M' AT SOME OF ITS AMERICAN RESTAURANTS THIS WEEK IN RECOGNITION OF INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY GOING TO HELP THE CAUSE OF WOMEN IN 2018? ANSWER ` WHAT DO YOU THINK? IT'S FAIR TO SAY NOT EVERYONE WAS 'LOVIN' IT'. SOME SOCIAL MEDIA USERS SUGGESTED THAT PAYING ALL ITS WORKERS BETTER WAGES MIGHT DO MORE FOR WOMEN. QUESTION ` WHY IS THE FINANCE MINISTER COUNTING HIS LUCKY STARS THIS WEEK? ANSWER ` OH, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE TREASURY JUST TOLD HIM HE'S GOT NEARLY AN EXTRA $700M TO SPEND EVERY YEAR. NOT A BAD WAY TO START WHEN YOU THINK IN 2008, BILL ENGLISH GOT A RECESSION AND THE GFC. ANYWAY, GRANT ROBERTSON SAT DOWN WITH ME FOR HIS FIRST Q+A INTERVIEW FOR THE YEAR. WE COVERED A LOT, BUT BEGAN WITH THE GOVERNMENT'S TAX WORKING GROUP, WHICH THIS WEEK ANNOUNCED THE SCOPE OF ITS REVIEW. I ASKED MR ROBERTSON IF LABOUR REALLY BELIEVES A NEW TAX ON WEALTH IS REALLY NEEDED. THE PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS OF THE TAX WORKING GROUP IS THAT WE NEED A BETTER BALANCE INTO THE TAX SYSTEM, AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT WE'VE HAD A TAX SYSTEM THAT HAS INCENTIVISED SPECULATION, PARTICULARLY IN PROPERTY. WE WANT THIS WORKING GROUP TO COME UP WITH IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO GET THAT BETTER BALANCE. I'M NOT GOING TO DICTATE AT THIS POINT IN THE PROCESS EXACTLY WHAT THAT SHOULD BE BEYOND WHAT WE'VE ALREADY RULED OUT IN THE TERMS OF REFERENCE. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT NOW THAT NEW ZEALANDERS ENGAGE WITH THE TAX WORKING GROUP AND MAKE CLEAR WHAT THEY THINK THE PRIORITIES ARE. WE'RE GOING TO GET A FIRST REPORT BACK FROM THEM IN SEPTEMBER AND THEN A FINALISED REPORT IN APRIL NEXT YEAR. THAT'S THE TIME FRAME. I DON'T WANT TO PREJUDGE IT. INTO THIS TAX WORKING GROUP THE WAY THAT WE HAVE, WE'RE NOT SATISFIED AT THE MOMENT THAT, FOR INSTANCE, WAGE AND SALARY EARNERS ARE GETTING A FAIR DEAL VERSUS THOSE WHO'VE SPECULATED IN THE HOUSING MARKET. WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR FROM THE GROUP. YOU HAVE TALKED IN SPEECHES IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS ABOUT WHAT YOU CALL A JUST TRANSITION WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF WORK, THE RISE OF TECHNOLOGY TAKING PEOPLE'S JOBS AND HELPING PEOPLE MAKE THE TRANSITION. WHEN YOU WERE IN OPPOSITION, YOU TALKED ABOUT A UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME, WHEREBY A GOVERNMENT EFFECTIVELY WOULD GIVE PEOPLE SOME MONEY TO HELP WITH THAT TRANSITION. IS THAT AN IDEA THAT STILL LIVES IN THIS TERM IN YOUR GOVERNMENT? I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THIS TERM, NO, BECAUSE I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE TRIALS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE OVERSEAS FOR THAT. WE ACTUALLY HAVE A SEPARATE PIECE OF WORK UNDERWAY WHICH IS ABOUT THE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE WELFARE SYSTEM AND THE TAX SYSTEM THAT MINISTER SEPULONI IS LEADING. IN THAT, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET THE INCENTIVES TO WORK RIGHT, THAT WE HAVE A SYSTEM THAT ACTUALLY SUPPORTS PEOPLE THROUGH THOSE TRANSITIONAL PERIODS. WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? WELL, I MEAN, A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR YOU IS THE KIND OF ACTIVE LABOUR MARKET POLICIES THAT I THINK WE NEED TO SEE MORE OF IN NEW ZEALAND. HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT SOMEBODY WHO'S IN AN INDUSTRY THAT WE KNOW THAT JOBS ARE GOING TO START TO DISAPPEAR IN THE FUTURE IS BEING SUPPORTED TO TRAIN AND RETRAIN IN ADVANCE OF THAT? IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE FIRST YEAR FEES FREE THAT WE'VE BROUGHT IN IS ACTUALLY TARGETED PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO'VE NEVER HAD POST-SECONDARY SCHOOL EDUCATION AND TRAINING. MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE IN INDUSTRIES WHICH ARE CHANGING HUGELY. WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN DO MORE IN THAT SPACE, AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE WELFARE AND TAX SYSTEMS ARE LINED UP TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. HOW DOES SOMEONE IN THEIR 30s, THEIR JOB'S SUDDENLY BECOME OBSOLETE BECAUSE OF THE CHANGING ECONOMY; YES, THEY CAN GO AND DO EDUCATION FREE IF THEY HAVEN'T TRAINED ALREADY ` BUT HOW DO THEY SUPPORT A FAMILY, HOW DO THEY LIVE? LET'S BE CLEAR. WE STILL HAVE INCOME SUPPORT SYSTEMS. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THIS PIECE OF WORK THAT MINISTER SEPULONI IS DOING IS GOING TO FOCUS ON HOW TO MAKE SURE WE MAXIMISE THE VALUE OF THAT, PEOPLE GET SUPPORTED THROUGH THEIR TRAINING. BUT, ACTUALLY, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO LOOK BEYOND THE IDEA THAT YOU NEED TO GO AWAY AND DO A YEAR'S COURSE. ACTUALLY, ONE OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT PARTS OF THIS JUST TRANSITION IS GOING TO BE GETTING TRAINING PROGRAMMES THAT ARE DELIVERED IN SUCH A WAY AS THAT THEY SUPPORT PEOPLE THROUGH SHORT COURSES AND WHILE THEY'RE IN WORK. I WAS IN SINGAPORE LAST WEEK, TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THEIR WORK IN THIS SPACE, WHICH WAS REALLY INTERESTING. THEY'VE MAPPED INDUSTRY TRANSFORMATION PLANS. THEY'VE SAT ALONGSIDE THAT AND SAID, 'WHAT'S THE SKILL MIX WE'RE GOING TO NEED IN THIS AREA?' AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT A SERIES OF MODULAR EDUCATIONAL OFFERINGS DELIVERED OFTEN ONLINE FOR PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE IN WORK. THAT IS THE KIND OF INNOVATIVE THINKING WE'RE GOING TO NEED IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ALLOWING PEOPLE TO CONTINUALLY LEARN THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES. SOME PEOPLE, SURE, WILL GO AWAY AND DO A TWO-YEAR DIPLOMA OR A ONE-YEAR COURSE, BUT OTHERS ARE GOING TO NEED THOSE SHORT MODULES WHILE THEY'RE STILL WORKING. SURE. LET'S TALK ABOUT, I GUESS, YOUR FOCUS ON THE GOVERNMENT'S BOOKS. YOU HAVE JUST GOT AN EXTRA $700 MILLION, BASICALLY, ACCORDING TO TREASURY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT'S BUILT IN; IT'S LOOKING LIKE IT'S BUILT IN. DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU CAN NOW GIVE TEACHERS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE 16% PAY RISE THEY WANT OVER TWO YEARS? LOOK, ONE DOESN'T WANT TO COUNT ONE'S CHICKENS BEFORE THEY HATCH. TREASURY ARE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, THE INCREASE TAX TAKE AS BEING SOMETHING THAT THEY NOW BELIEVE WILL SUSTAIN ITSELF THROUGH THE FULL YEAR. BUT WE'VE GOT TO BE VERY CAREFUL. THAT MONEY HAS TO BE SPREAD ACROSS A LOT OF DIFFERENT PRIORITIES AND OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS. WE'RE GOING TO BE SITTING DOWN OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS AND FINALISING THE BUDGET. AND WE'RE ACUTELY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, TEACHERS, NURSES HAVE SAID, 'WELL, WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED THE DIVIDEND THAT WE'VE SEEN FROM 'THE GROWTH IN THE ECONOMY.' THEY'RE NOT ALONE IN THAT. WE'VE GOT TO TAKE A REALISTIC APPROACH, BUT WE'RE VERY LIVE TO THE FACT THAT THOSE GROUPS OF PROFESSIONALS PROBABLY HAVEN'T SEEN THE BENEFIT THEY SHOULD'VE IN RECENT YEARS. SO THEY ARE IN LINE FOR A REASONABLE BUMP? YEAH, LOOK, THEY ARE IN LINE FOR A NEGOTIATION WITH US. YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE START THROWING FIGURES LIKE 16% AROUND, YOU'VE GOT TO BE PRETTY CAREFUL WITH A NUMBER LIKE THAT. BUT IT IS TIME FOR NEW ZEALAND WAGE AND SALARY EARNERS TO SEE BETTER DIVIDEND FROM GROWTH. THAT CAN'T ALL HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. SOME OF IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT LIFTING OUR PRODUCTIVITY. SOME OF IT'S ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE PRIORITISE AREAS LIKE HEALTH AND EDUCATION BETTER THAN HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST. SO WHEN DOES THE HAIRDRESSER SEE A GAIN OF 8%? BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE PRIVATE SECTOR'S STILL ONLY LOOKING AT 2% IF THEY'RE LUCKY. I'M NOT NAMING A NUMBER LIKE 8%, CORIN, YOU ARE. NO, THAT'S FINE. WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE RECOGNISE THAT IN THESE PROFESSIONS FROM TIME TO TIME THERE NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSIONS. WE ARE THE EMPLOYER OF THESE PEOPLE. SURE, BUT PUTTING THAT ASIDE, FOR THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHO AREN'T GOVERNMENT EMPLOYED, WHEN CAN THEY EXPECT TO SEE WAGE GAINS ABOVE 2%, YOU KNOW, 3%, 4%, THOSE SORT OF GAINS, THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR? LOOK, WE'VE SEEN A FAIRLY SUSTAINED PERIOD OF LOW INFLATION, AND OBVIOUSLY THAT HAS A BIG IMPACT ON THE KINDS OF OUTCOMES PEOPLE WILL GET. BUT WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME OVERALL CHANGES IN THE WAY INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS WORKS. WE WANT TO SEE PEOPLE GET DECENT WAGES. THAT COINCIDES WITH A LIFT IN PRODUCTIVITY. WE'VE GOT TO BE LIFTING THE VALUE OF WHAT WE DO. GOVERNMENT CAN DO SO MUCH. WE CAN LIFT THE MINIMUM WAGE; WE'RE DOING THAT. WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE IN THE CORE PUBLIC SECTOR ARE PAID THE LIVING WAGE; WE'RE WORKING TOWARDS THAT. BUT IN THE END, IT'S THE OVERALL GROWTH OF THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THE ECONOMY THAT WILL FLOW THROUGH TO PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR GETTING BIGGER WAGE INCREASES. WELL, LOOK, WE WANT TO START SEEING IT OVER THE TERM OF THIS GOVERNMENT. AND THE FORECASTS THAT WE'RE SEEING FROM TREASURY ARE TALKING ABOUT A 3% AVERAGE INCREASE IN WAGES. THAT'S HIGHER THAN WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST. WE'RE HELPING TO STIMULATE THAT WITH THE INVESTMENTS THAT WE'RE MAKING IN THE ECONOMY. PRODUCTIVITY IMPROVEMENTS WILL GO WITH THAT. YOU MUST BE GETTING A LOT OF SPENDING DEMANDS, I IMAGINE, FROM YOUR COLLEAGUES AT THE MOMENT. ON THAT. A BILLION-DOLLAR PRISON ` IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN? YEAH, WE'RE STILL WORKING THROUGH THAT, AND YOU'LL KNOW FROM THE COMMENTS THAT MINISTER DAVIS HAS SAID PUBLICLY THAT THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THAT AGREES WITH BILL ENGLISH THAT PRISONS ARE A MORAL AND FISCAL FAILURE. IT MUST HURT YOU, THOUGH, HAVING TO COME UP WITH A BILLION DOLLARS FOR A PRISON. WE'VE GOT A PLAN TO REDUCE THE OVERALL PRISON POPULATION. WHERE ANY PRISON REBUILD FITS WITHIN THAT IS A LIVE DISCUSSION AT THE MOMENT. STILL LIVE, OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE AN ASSURANCE THAT YOU WILL COMMIT TO THE $20 BILLION WORTH OF DEFENCE SPENDING OVER THE 15-YEAR PERIOD THAT THE LAST GOVERNMENT COMMITTED? WHAT WE'VE COMMITTED TO IS A REVIEW OF DEFENCE PROCUREMENT, BECAUSE I'M NOT CONVINCED NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE HAD VALUE FOR MONEY FROM DEFENCE PURCHASES IN THE PAST. WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, IT'S ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING AREAS OF PROCUREMENT. THERE IS NO DOUBT THERE WILL NEED TO BE SOME UPDATING AND UPGRADING OF OUR DEFENCE CAPABILITY. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO PIN MYSELF TO A NUMBER AT THE MOMENT WHEN I'M NOT EVEN CONFIDENT ABOUT THE BASIS OF THE PROCUREMENT. BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR NOT JUST THE SPENDING ON DEFENCE BUT IN TERMS OF FOREIGN POLICY, IN TERMS OF THE SIGNALS WE SEND TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AND OUR PARTNERS IN AUSTRALIA. ARE WE GOING TO SPEND THE $20 BILLION IN THE 15 YEARS OR NOT? AT THE MOMENT, WHAT I'M FOCUSED ON IS DOING A REVIEW OF PROCUREMENT SO I CAN EVEN GET OURSELVES TO A STARTING POINT OF SAYING, 'IS THAT $20 BILLION NUMBER A RELEVANT NUMBER?' WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING A ROBUST, FLEXIBLE, ADAPTABLE DEFENCE FORCE THAT PLAYS ITS PART IN THE WORLD. NEW ZEALAND SHOULD DO THAT, AND IT WILL DO THAT, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO WRITE OUT A BLANK CHEQUE AT THE MOMENT WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT VALUE FOR MONEY WE'RE GETTING FOR THOSE PURCHASES. SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY YOU CAN'T COMMIT TO THE $20 BILLION OVER 15 YEARS AT THIS POINT? I DON'T THINK IT'S RESPONSIBLE AT THE MOMENT TO COMMIT TO ANY NUMBER UNTIL WE'RE COMPLETELY CLEAR ABOUT THE WAY THAT WE GO ABOUT OUR PROCUREMENT. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF NEW ZEALAND PLAYING ITS PART IN THE WORLD. THE WAY NEW ZEALAND DEFENCE FORCES WORK IN PEACEKEEPING IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF OUR ROLE AS AN INTERNATIONAL CITIZEN. WE'RE COMMITTED TO THAT. BUT SAYING A NUMBER RIGHT NOW IS ACTUALLY IRRESPONSIBLE WHEN WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOT THE PROCUREMENT SYSTEMS IN PLACE TO ENSURE VALUE FOR MONEY. IS RON MARK ON BOARD WITH THAT POSITION? YEAH, RON IS, BECAUSE RON WAS VERY MUCH PART OF THE DISCUSSION THAT SAID, 'LET'S REVIEW PROCUREMENT IN THE DEFENCE AREA 'SO WE'RE GETTING VALUE FOR MONEY.' HE'S A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR THE DEFENCE FORCE GETTING RESOURCES. WE'RE HAVING THOSE DISCUSSIONS RIGHT NOW. DOES NEW ZEALAND NEED RICH FOREIGNERS, BILLIONAIRES COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND AND INVESTING? WE CERTAINLY NEED FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WE'VE NEVER SHIED AWAY FROM THAT. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US THAT WE SORT OUR HOUSING MARKET OUT, THAT WE GIVE NEW ZEALANDERS A FAIR GO AT BUYING THEIR FIRST HOME, AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE MADE THE CHANGES WE'VE MADE AROUND THE RULES ON RESIDENTIAL HOUSING, THE PURCHASE OF EXISTING HOUSING. BUT DO WE NEED THESE BILLIONAIRES? A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT BILLIONAIRES NOT WANTING TO COME AND NOT WANTING TO BUILD THEIR GOLF COURSES. DO YOU CARE? WHAT WE WANT IS GOOD-QUALITY INVESTMENT THAT SUPPORTS THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY. WE NEED HELP AS A SMALL COUNTRY WITH HIGH LIVING STANDARDS AND ASPIRATIONS TO HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS, THAT WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE CAPITAL WE NEED FOR` THERE'S A FUNDING GAP, ISN'T THERE? YEAH, THERE IS, AND WE DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE CAPITAL THAT WE NEED. THE TRICK HERE IS TO CHANNEL THAT INVESTMENT INTO THE PRODUCTIVE SIDE OF THE ECONOMY. NOT INTO SPECULATION AROUND HOUSING, BUT ACTUALLY TO SUPPORTING THE GROWTH OF JOBS IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT IS THERE SOME COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN THAT THE POLICY ON THE RESIDENTIAL HOMES IS CAUSING A LOT OF BACKLASH FROM SUBMITTERS? UNDERSTANDABLY, THEY'RE AGAINST IT. BUT IS THERE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN TERMS OF IT PUSHING AWAY OTHER INVESTORS THAT WE NEED? LOOK, I WAS IN SOUTH KOREA AND SINGAPORE LAST WEEK MEETING WITH INVESTORS WHO ARE DEAD KEEN TO GET IN AND SUPPORT THE ACTIVITY THAT WE WANT TO DO IN TERMS OF GROWING THE PRODUCTIVE SIDE OF THE ECONOMY ` BUILDING MORE HOUSES, BUILDING MORE HOTELS TO SUPPORT THE GROWTH THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE TOURISM SECTOR. THAT KIND OF INVESTMENT IS REALLY POSITIVE. THOSE PEOPLE KNOW THAT NEW ZEALAND IS A GREAT PLACE TO INVEST. YOU KNOW, THE STRENGTH OF NEW ZEALAND OF HAVING A STABLE, ROBUST BANKING SYSTEM, GOOD RULE OF LAW, TOPPING THE TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL INDEX ` THOSE ARE THINGS THAT INVESTORS SEE VERY POSITIVELY. CHANGES THAT WE'RE MAKING IN RESIDENTIAL HOUSING ACTUALLY JUST LINE US UP WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE AUSTRALIA. SO I DON'T THINK INVESTORS HAVE ANYTHING TO FEAR, AND THE ONES THAT I MET IN SINGAPORE AND SOUTH KOREA WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITIES IN NEW ZEALAND. WHAT ABOUT IMMIGRATION? ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE IMMIGRATION NUMBERS ARE SIMPLY NOT COMING DOWN? WE ARE STILL AT 70,000 NET. THE LAST MONTH, WENT BACK UP. I DON'T KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING WITH IMMIGRATION? I MEAN, ALL THE RHETORIC IN THE CAMPAIGN WAS THAT YOU WERE GOING TO TURN THE TAP OFF, BUT IT'S NOT BEEN TURNED OFF. I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF RHETORIC FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THE CAMPAIGN. WHAT WE'VE SAID IS WE WANT TO MAKE THOSE CRITERIA CHANGES` YOU SAID YOU'D TURN THE TAP OFF. NO, WHAT WE SAID WAS THAT WE WOULD MAKE CRITERIA CHANGES AROUND THINGS LIKE INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS AND THAT LEADING INTO MIGRATION THAT ACTUALLY ISN'T PROVIDING THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED. WE KNOW, WE CONTINUE, AND WE ALSO KNEW THAT WE WOULD CONTINUE TO NEED HIGH-SKILLED, HIGH-QUALITY IMMIGRATION INTO NEW ZEALAND, AND THAT WILL CONTINUE. MINISTER LEES-GALLOWAY IS WORKING ON THOSE CRITERIA CHANGES RIGHT NOW. BUT IT'S TRUE TO SAY THE NUMBERS HAVEN'T COME DOWN YET. BUT THAT CREATES PROBLEMS FOR YOU, THOUGH, DOESN'T IT? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GIVE THE UPWARD PRESSURE THAT YOU MIGHT WANT FOR WAGES, AND INFRASTRUCTURE PROBLEMS ` IT'S SPACES IN HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS. LOOK, IT'S BEEN FOUR MONTHS. I DON'T THINK IT'S UNREASONABLE TO SUGGEST THAT WE'VE GOT TO TAKE THE TIME TO GET THE CRITERIA CHANGES RIGHT. BUT WE NEVER SAID THAT NEW ZEALAND DIDN'T NEED IMMIGRATION. IT DOES. IT NEEDS EXACTLY THE RIGHT KIND OF SKILLS COMING INTO THE COUNTRY. NO, BUT YOU DID SAY THAT IT WOULD 20,000 TO 30,000 LESS. IS IT GOING TO BE 20,000 OR 30,000 LESS? WHAT WE SAID WAS WE WOULD CHANGE CRITERIA, AND THOSE NUMBERS WERE THE ESTIMATE OF THE RESULT OF THAT. WE'RE NOW GETTING ON WITH THE WORK TO DO THE CHANGES IN CRITERIA THAT MEAN THAT THE FOCUS IS ON GETTING THE MIGRANTS WHO PROVIDE THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED TODAY. SO IF WE GET ALL THOSE SKILLED MIGRANTS AND WE'RE STILL AT 70,000, IS THAT OKAY? I DON'T THINK THAT'S LIKELY TO BE THE RESULT, AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE'S FORECASTING THAT THAT WILL BE A RESULT. YOU'RE SAYING IT'S POSSIBLE? NO. I'M SAYING THAT OUR FOCUS HAS NEVER BEEN ON A NUMBER. OUR FOCUS HAS BEEN ON CHANGING THE CRITERIA SO THAT WE GET A QUALITY MIX OF MIGRANTS WHO ARE COMING IN WITH THE RIGHT SKILLS THAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS. AND WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SKILL GAPS, AND WE'VE GOT TO GET ON WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE BUILDING PEOPLE TO COME IN NOW WHILE AT THE SAME TIME WE DO THE THING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED, WHICH IS TRAIN NEW ZEALANDERS. WE HAVE TO DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. WE'RE GOING TO BE INVESTING, AND WE ARE INVESTING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT IN TRAINING, BUT IN THE MEANTIME WE'VE GOT TO KEEP BUILDING AND WE'VE GOT TO KEEP DOING THE THINGS THAT KEEP THE ECONOMY MOVING. JUST FINALLY, LIVING STANDARDS FRAMEWORK, A WELL-BEING BUDGET ` CAN YOU TELL NEW ZEALANDERS HOW THEIR LIVES WILL BE IN ANY WAY AFFECTED OR IMPROVED BY HAVING A BUDGET THAT FOCUSES ON WELL-BEING AS OPPOSED TO GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT? BECAUSE PEOPLE'S SUCCESS IN THEIR LIVES DOESN'T JUST DEPEND ON THE GDP NUMBER. WHAT MATTERS, I THINK, TO NEW ZEALANDERS IS THAT THEIR ENVIRONMENT'S HEALTHY, THAT THE WATER'S CLEAN, THAT, ACTUALLY, THE PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES ARE FEELING SAFE, THAT THEY'RE GETTING MORE SKILLS, THAT THEIR COMMUNITIES ARE MORE CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER AND TO THE WORLD. WHY DO YOU NEED A WELL-BEING BUDGET TO DO THAT? ISN'T THAT WHAT GOVERNMENT'S SUPPOSED TO DO ANYWAY? YEAH, BUT IT'S REALLY EASY WHEN IT COMES TO BUDGET TIME TO JUST FOCUS ON THE GDP NUMBERS. AND THEY TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT THE ACTIVITY IN OUR ECONOMY. WHAT THEY DON'T TELL US ENOUGH ABOUT IS THE QUALITY OF LIFE OUTCOMES FOR NEW ZEALANDERS. IF WE GET THIS RIGHT WITH THE WELL-BEING BUDGET, WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO SAY TO NEW ZEALANDERS, 'HERE IS A BUDGET THAT'S BEEN CREATED SO THAT WE KNOW WE'RE 'IMPROVING THE ECONOMY, THE ENVIRONMENT AND OUR COMMUNITIES 'AT THE SAME TIME. AND HERE IS A SET OF SUCCESS MEASURES THAT 'AREN'T JUST ABOUT GDP, BUT, ACTUALLY, ARE ABOUT THE OVERALL 'HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF OUR PEOPLE.' I THINK WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS WILL BE ABLE TO DO AT THAT POINT IS SAY, 'YES, THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR. THE ECONOMY IS NOT AN END IN ITSELF; 'IT'S A MEANS TO A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE.' AND THE MESSAGE THAT I'VE BEEN GIVING MINISTERS IS THIS IS A THREE-YEAR TERM. WE HAVE AN AMAZING ARRAY OF AMBITIOUS PROJECTS. WE WILL GIVE NEW ZEALANDERS AN IDEA ON THE 17TH OF MAY ABOUT THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO BE ROLLING THOSE OUT. YES, OF COURSE IT'S TIGHT. A BUDGET SHOULD BE TIGHT, CORIN, BECAUSE WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT YOU'VE BALANCED UP THOSE FISCAL PRESSURES ALONGSIDE BEING RESPONSIBLE WITH THE SPENDING. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WOULD EXPECT US TO DO, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING. TELL US WHAT YOU THINK OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH FINANCE MINISTER GRANT ROBERTSON. WE'RE ON TWITTER ` @NZQANDA. OR YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. WE'LL BRING IN OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` JOSIE PAGANI, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND DIRECTOR OF THE COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT; EFESO COLLINS, AUCKLAND COUNCILLOR; AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF BUSINESS AT NZME. Josie, talking of a social dividend in that interview, teachers, nurses are going to get a bit of a pay rise? I think that's quite a strong articulation weapon waiting for values. You can't rely on your experts to tell you what your values are. The goal of this tax rebalance is to rebalance the tax base away from the burden put on those who are trying to get up the hill and put the tax burden on those at the top of the hill. I think a bit other OECD countries, people on wages pay more of their share of tax on income tax and GST then other countries. He talks about salaries for teachers ` it's not just teachers. Its headdresses, plumbers, bus drivers. They have missed out on about $10,000 a year. The tax rebalance, if you're serious about it, check the people at the top of the hill. Efeso? I think is looking at a wider area. He started to speak about the well-being budget. You talked about much more for salaryand wages and those who have been in the specculative market. I think what is try to do istalk about having a financial discussion is going to include a few more voices. Teachers, social workers will be happy with this. I think this is a good start. I was harsh on Grant Robertson. He's got the Treasury books done, he's got the support of the whole ministry. I think it was a good interview. Fran, he was talking about social dividends. What will the wealth creators in this economy feel after that sort of interview? One of the issues when it comes investment in the economy is that someone is going to be doing the investing. There is a big gap around infrastructure, which has to be invested into. What he is talking about, and the union demandsa pretty massive. The wage increases haven't been very high. I didn't hear anything they gave me confidence about productivity gains apart from slogans. When you talk about the well-being budget, that is a straight steal from the work the Treasury did about living standards, will advance the notion of various living capitals. With policies about expenditure and microeconomic reforms, it's going to be interesting to see how the government contends to deal with what seems like very fluffy stuff. He doesn't sound like he's got patients for that. We've been hearing about productivity for a long time. This is a government is going to come and meet industrial relations reform, lift a wage and demand that businesses pay more. There is a dual approach going here the massive populist rejection of the establishments ` there are few things that labour can latch on to. One is the redistribution of wealth. You do that through the tax system. If they can take the bull by the hornsand say, 'these are our values,' People are $10,000 less off. You've got to do it for a bunch of different ways. This government has put its money where its mouth is and sign a TPP. With a bit of cosmetic twinkling. They said it was a devil style deal when In opposition. This is a government that coming into power, has embraced some of the elements of its predecessors. Josie has said they are flip-flopped on those two things, but there will be tough on other areas around industrial relations. They have to be sure for the people who have been saying 'we have been left behind.' Those people have to feel a sense of confidence that the minister is hearing us. What point will they go to the electorate with these tax changes? when will they say we're going to campaign on a wealth tax the group is coming in sept. I don't know if they go to so brave in April. I think essentially to pass legislation and then taken to the elections. Implementations will be beyond the next elections. Intentional will be to put the legislation and place like the predecessor did with the tax cuts. You don't need to be told what your values are. They can be braver coming into the elections. Grant didn't mention this, but the parameters of the tax working group is looking also at taxing bad behaviour. I think that's a mistake. I think we should tax bad behaviour like smoking, polluting, because it's bad behaviour, but if you agree to use that as a tax base, you have to be careful not to. Because if people stop smoking polluting, how are you Going get your money? You need to steer away from the idea that the tax review is about banning stuff. How do you think you can go up against Amy Adams? I think he's getting a fair run.. he talked to New Zealand initiative which he described later as being the successor to the business Roundtable on Friday, he talked to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce. He got a reasonable response. He talked about the key elementsand be more inclusive. It talked about the well-being budget, he talked about focusing on TPP. People open to that. That is a language of the last government. It was quite a long speech. He got a fair hearing there. I think there are questions around delivery and particularly the bighearted questions which our productivity. This has not been delivered on. It requires some tough decisions on microeconomic reform. What to do about reports, for instance? Requires the government to be pretty strong. There is a raft of documentationsfor the productivity committee. Do you think Amy Adams is the right at person? I think grants will be pleased about that. It seems a more equal fight. Stephen Joyce is quite a seasoned politician. I think it should be Judith Collins. Judith is a total killer. People have great fun. I think Amy Adams is a great choice. She is very intelligent and speaks well. BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK, MY FIRST Q+A BUSINESS PODCAST WENT LIVE THIS WEEK. FORMER ANZ ECONOMIST CAMERON BAGRIE IS NOW WORKING FOR HIMSELF AND GAVE A PRETTY FRANK ASSESSMENT OF SOME OF THE CRITICAL ISSUES FACING THE ECONOMY. ONE THING HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE LOOMING COST OF AN AGING POPULATION. THESE ARE BIG NUMBERS. NOW SOMETHING WILL GET DONE. THIS ISSUE IS WHEN IS SOMETHING GOING TO GET DONE. I GUESS THE ISSUE I'VE GOT IS THE MORE WE KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD, THE MORE THE NEXT GENERATION IS GOING TO BEAR THE PRICE. IT'S UP ONLINE BUT ALSO ON ITUNES AND SOUNDCLOUD. SIGN UP SO YOU DON'T MISS AN EPISODE. I'VE GOT ANOTHER ONE OUT NEXT THURSDAY. RIGHT, IT'S 125 YEARS SINCE NEW ZEALAND WOMEN LED THE WORLD BY GETTING THE RIGHT TO VOTE. MUCH HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN, BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO DO, ACCORDING TO ONE OF OUR LEADING FEMINIST ACADEMICS, MARILYN WARING. WE'LL HEAR FROM HER AFTER THE BREAK: 30 YEARS AGO, MARILYN WARING WROTE A GROUND-BREAKING BOOK THAT AMERICAN FEMINIST, GLORIA STEINEM, DECLARED HAD CHANGED HER WORLD VIEW. 'IF WOMEN COUNTED', RELEASED AFTER PROFESSOR WARING LEFT PARLIAMENT, ARGUES THAT WOMEN'S UNPAID WORK IS IGNORED IN CONVENTIONAL ECONOMIC THINKING AND THIS HAS HELPED SHAPE A BIAS TOWARDS WOMEN. MARILYN WARING JOINS ME FROM HAMILTON. You are at your mother's retirement home this morning. Looking at the world at the moment, do you feel more positive about the gains for women? . There are a lot of legislate of gains, and whenever, for example, in New Zealand, we are beginning to have progress with pay equity. But so many things keep going on against women. The bias against women in a number of leadership roles. And I have been concerned with leaving all unpaid work out of the GDP and the effect that that has on making economic decisions. In the census this week I noticed there was a question about unpaid work. It that a step towards the inclusion? No, we are going backwards. The recorded simultaneity of activities. They were given to members of the household, aged 12 years and over. They gave an amazing texture of data. But the previous government had no interest in those studies at all. Although Grant Robertson is talking about well-being, we actually cannot proceed to having very good database of well-being until we return to those nationwide surveys. If you had a magic wand and you could measure those unpaid work that men and women do. How would it be manifested? You have to realise it is the single largest sector in any nation's economy. I'm not talking about paying it. I'm talking about redistributing resources according to that. For example, you would understand that primary healthcare starts in the home. That is where primary healthcare happens. Not when you finally get to the GP. You would look at issues such as putting the health workers back on the road, not just the midwives, because the person who is doing the unpaid work in the household, if we look at those 24/7 caring families, we would find out that it costs more to interrupt bed day then it does to put the care on the road to them. She could go from sector to sector. In agriculture, on most farms in New Zealand, most people work as soon they can walk. Whether it is feeding the hens or whatever. If we look at input into agriculture on a per production basis. Every sector we look at their problems. Issues of redistribution. Were we to have a full picture of our economy. Should governments be doing even more legislation? For example, like France, where they are talking about fines. Let New Zealand run with just the gains at the moment, I think. We know we have other sectors moving now into disability care workers. We know midwives are another pay equity gap. We know nurses and teachers generally are too. If we can move on this with momentum, then of course the irony is, it will put the GDP up. It will also increase the revenue. You talk about momentum, there is a bit of push back is in there? The likes of Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologists. He had an interview about the gender pay gap. He essentially said there are multifactor and reasons for the gender pay gap. He said bias is only one factor. What would be your response? All my life as a feminist. We have always had those boys roaring in the corner. I just ignore them. See you are not worried that they are getting airtime? I am worried. Another issue about dignity and equality in getting rid of discriminatory behaviours, still getting pushback. They will come from any corner you like to try and stop women getting their rightful gains. But he is saying it to young men. They say exactly the same thing. It doesn't matter where they come from in the world. What about quotas for senior leadership in business? Do we need that? I am a quota person for the boards. Have you had some scripts with Joan Withers? I just disagree with them. There are exceptions. One of the things evidence tells us, particularly if we look at the global financial crisis, is that the boards on which there were numbers of women did not go to war. Research has demonstrated that if you have a room full of men at there is a test of thrown competition to take more risks. Investors are not interested. Are women interested? They have to go against a cutthroat market to get to senior boards. You are talking to someone who did nine years with Muldoon. I'm not saying they can't. But one of the arguments is that there is less of a desire to want to do it. When you are impacted by the full male forum,it is very difficult. You talked at the beginning about violence against women. Are you encouraged by what we are seeing coming out, of Hollywood with the Me Too movement? Some of the pushback in the area? Yes and no. I don't think that liking something on Facebook as a political activity. I would rather see you on the streets. It seems to me we still have a huge problem around violence. Violence in your own home, your communities. Grant spoke about safety. And well-being indicators. One of the things New Zealand is getting wrong in terms of well-being characteristics is buying into the OECD. It is from the people who gave us the GDP, now something similar. The same indicators that are collected at national level. They are deciding what characteristics. I am sorry to interrupt you. We are running out of time. Thank you very much for coming on Q and A. AFTER THE BREAK ` AHEAD OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISIT NEXT WEEK, REBECCA WRIGHT REPORTS FROM CALIFORNIA, WHERE PROTOTYPES FOR HIS MEXICAN BORDER WALL ARE READY FOR INSPECTION. AND SHE MEETS THE LONE WOLF VIGILANTE WHO'S ALREADY PROTECTING HIS PATCH OF THE BORDER. TO THE U-S NOW, WHERE THE WHITE HOUSE HAS CONFIRMED PRESIDENT TRUMP IS PREPARING TO INSPECT HIS BORDER WALL PROTOTYPES ON TUESDAY. IT'S NOW TWO YEARS SINCE TRUMP UNVEILED HIS PLAN TO SEAL THE ENTIRE SOUTHERN BORDER. SINCE THEN, THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF HIS WALL HAS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY, AND MEXICO HAS REFUSED TO PAY FOR IT. SO REBECCA WRIGHT WENT TO THE SAN DIEGO BORDER AHEAD OF THE PRESIDENT TO TALK TO THOSE WHO ARE ON THE FRONTLINE OF THIS ISSUE. PEOPLE CHANT FAINTLY: BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL! TRUMP: BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL. THEY ARE THREE WORDS WHICH DEFINED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN. NOW, ON THE US-MEXICO BORDER, ONE OF HIS MOST CONTROVERSIAL POLICIES IS RISING UP OUT OF THE LANDSCAPE. SO WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR IS FOR INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ACTUALLY PERFORMED WELL WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO PEOPLE CLIMBING IT, BREACHING IT, DIGGING UNDER IT AND SCALING IT. IT ALSO HAS TO BE SAFE FOR THE AGENTS WHO ARE GOING TO PATROL THE AREA WHERE IT'S GOING TO BE BUILT. THE WALL ISN'T ACCESSIBLE FROM THE SAN DIEGO SIDE, SO WE'VE COME TO TIJUANA TO GET A CLOSER LOOK AT THESE PROTOTYPES. THEY HAVE TO BE BETWEEN 6M AND 9M TALL, 20CM THICK AND ABLE TO WITHSTAND AN ASSAULT BY A SLEDGEHAMMER OR POWER TOOLS FOR AT LEAST 30 MINUTES. BUT WHILE THESE PROTOTYPES TOWER ABOVE THEIR PREVIOUS INCARNATIONS, TRUMP'S WALL KEEPS GETTING SHORTER IN LENGTH. INITIALLY, IT WAS TO SEAL THE ENTIRE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE US. NOW THE FIGURE STANDS AT ABOUT HALF OF THAT. WE ARE ALLOWED TO CHOOSE ONE OR ALL EIGHT OR IDEAS FROM DIFFERENT ONES. THE PRICE TAG FOR TRUMP'S WALL, HOWEVER, IS GROWING. A RECENT ESTIMATE PUTS THE COST AT NZ$28B. BUT EVEN THAT MAY BE CONSERVATIVE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO BUY THOUSANDS OF PARCELS OF LAND ALONG THE BORDER TO BUILD IT ON. AND IT'S ALL HAPPENING AT A TIME WHEN ILLEGAL BORDER FLOWS ARE AT RECORD LOWS, DOWN TO 26,000 LAST YEAR FROM 110,000 AT THE HEIGHT OF THE IMMIGRANT CRISIS. WE AVERAGE ABOUT 80 APPREHENSIONS ` 80 ARRESTS A DAY. DO YOU THINK THAT THE WALL ` OR A WALL ` WILL EVER COMPLETELY STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION? ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS NOT GONNA COMPLETELY EVER STOP. THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY. DRUGS SMUGGLING IS ALWAYS GONNA EXIST. WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE HERE IS FOR THESE NUMBERS TO DROP. RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO TIMELINE FOR CONSTRUCTION OR EVEN A FIRM PLAN FOR WHERE THE WALL WILL GO. SO IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL ON THE BORDER IN SAN DIEGO. WHAT'S IT LIKE TO BE OUT ON THE FRONT LINE OUT THERE IN BORDER PATROL? IT VARIES ON WHAT TYPE OF INDIVIDUALS WE ENCOUNTER AND WHAT WE'RE PATROLLING. IT COULD BE JUST A MIGRANT TRYING TO FIND WORK AND CROSSING THE BORDER ILLEGALLY, OR IT COULD BE A PRIOR CHILD MOLESTER OR A RAPIST, WHO WE ACTUALLY END UP ARRESTING. WHAT'S THE MOST CHALLENGING PART FOR YOU? THE HUMAN ASPECT, RIGHT? WE ARE BORDER PATROL AGENTS, WE ARE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, BUT WE'RE ALSO HUMAN. (CLUNK!) FURTHER WEST, WE MEET BOB MAUPIN, WHO HAS LITTLE COMPASSION FOR THE PEOPLE HE PICKS UP BREACHING THE BORDER. OK, BOYS, LET'S GO FIND SOME. COME ON. LET'S GO. WELL, I THINK THEY'RE INVADERS OF MY COUNTRY. I'VE BEEN CALLED A VIGILANTE, AND I DON'T REALLY CARE. IN FACT, WHEN THEY ASK ME THAT, I SAY, 'OH, HELL YES, I AM.' BOB'S ONE OF THE GROWING NUMBERS OF IMMIGRANT HARDLINERS FEELING EMBOLDENED UNDER THIS PRESIDENT. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU COME ACROSS THEM? SO I SIT 'EM DOWN, AND I CALL THE BORDER PATROL. AND THEY COME GET THEM. AT GUNPOINT? NO. THE ONLY TIME I EVER HAVE POINTED A GUN AT ANYBODY WAS A COUPLE OF GUYS FROM SYRIA THAT WOULD NOT SIT DOWN. IT'S A CLAIM BACKED UP BY OFFICIALS WE TALKED TO WHO SAY THEY'RE SEEING AN INCREASE IN SYRIANS AND PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST CROSSING ILLEGALLY. YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY CUT THE BARBED WIRE. AND THEN THEY PULL THE FENCE UP. AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY ALL CRAWL THROUGH. SO THEY FIRST HAVE TO GO OVER THE BIG FENCE OVER HERE? WELL, YOU SEE HOW IT'S PUT? IT'S LIKE A LADDER. THEY CAN CLIMB IT. OK. BUT EVEN BOB WILL ADMIT THE NUMBERS HAVE DWINDLED. HOWEVER, HE STILL WANTS THE WALL PROMISED TO HIM BY THE PRESIDENT. BOB, DO YOU HAVE ANY SYMPATHY AT ALL FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO COME INTO YOUR COUNTRY? NO. NOT UNLESS THEY COME IN THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR. WHY NOT? BECAUSE THEY'RE LAW-BREAKERS. AND THIS IS WHERE MANY END UP. TIJUANA IS A CITY DEFINED BY THE BORDER WALL AND THE LAND OF THE DEPORTED. MANY OF THEM CROSS THE BORDER AS CHILDREN BUT ARE DEPORTED HERE AS ADULTS, LIKE HECTOR, WHO LIVED IN LOS ANGELES FOR 32 YEARS. IT WAS HARD FOR ME, BECAUSE MY FAMILY ` THEY WERE WAITING FOR ME, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL, LIKE, A WEEK ` THEY FOUND THAT I WAS IN IMMIGRATION. 20% OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DEPORTED AT THE SAN YSIDRO BORDER END UP HERE. IT'S CALLED CASA DEL MIGRANTE ` A MIGRANT HOUSE WHERE THEY CAN COME, REST AND WORK OUT WHAT THEY'RE GONNA DO NEXT. (PEOPLE CHATTER) MANY REMAIN IN LIMBO IN THIS CITY THAT THEY BARELY KNOW. WHAT ARE PEOPLE LIKE WHEN THEY ARRIVE? WELL, THEY'RE TIRED ` THEY'RE REALLY TIRED. (CHUCKLES) THERE'S A LACK OF SENSITIVITY IN THE WAY THE US GOVERNMENT TREATS THEIR DEPORTEES. IT'S A PROCESS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE INTERIOR OF YOU, YOU'RE THINKING, 'I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL TO PICK UP MY DAUGHTER. 'WHO'S GOING TO PICK HER UP?' WHY ARE THEY USUALLY DEPORTED? THEY'RE, LIKE, DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE, PASSING A RED LIGHT, OF COURSE HAVE PEOPLE SERVING PENALTIES FOR MAJOR CRIMES. HERE, CARLOS AND HIS CO-WORKERS ARE TOO BUSY TO SPEND MUCH TIME THINKING ABOUT THE WALL. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT, PERSONALLY? ME? YEAH. IF I WAS AMERICAN, I WOULD BE VERY ANGRY THAT MY TAXES WERE GOING TO BUILD SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BECAUSE IMMIGRATION IS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS; IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE? EXACTLY. REBECCA WRIGHT REPORTING THERE. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL. This is Donald Trump to a T. Nationalism and protectionism. . The US and Mexico do have border and fences around � of their border anyway. They have been there for a very long time. So this is not completely out of whack for the history of US and Mexico. We should not be surprised. Tariffs are very much geared at China. Donald Trump will have exceptions. When you look at putting tariffs on steel, for instance, a big part is from places like Pennsylvania. $400 billion between the US and China. The US is losing on that deal. He is trying to shift the dial. It won't be easy. This is symbolic. It will provoke a countermeasure from China over time. But this is not all that much different than what has happened with previous presidents. Clinton slapped tariffs on Japan over auto trade. Do you think the ramifications are bigger? I think it is bigger. He is actually blowing up the whole rule system. He is also using the excuse of national security to bang on a tariff on steel and aluminium. That has not happened for a long time. That is really difficult. You cannot legally retaliate necessarily through the WTO. Usually you can retaliate. In a sense, he is saying he is going to blow the whole thing up. People can say that they are going to put a tariff on your bourbon, et cetera. We will put a tariff on oranges. That is the danger for New Zealand, if it escalates. How does this government respond? I am interested in the psyche. You look in the clip, they are saying they will arrest child molesters et cetera. Donald Trump is just out there pushing this particular agenda. The Mexicans are saying, "give us back California then." . Trump was the person who spoke about Mexicans coming across the border, so it is logical the guy there will say the same thing. And then you have the guy talking about the Syrians. It is a dangerous precedent to be setting. I think many people will look at Trump and say he is a little bit odd and weird anyway. I think it is a really dangerous precedent to be setting for that nation. As Fran said, he is doing exactly what he said he would do. He is attacking immigration and waging a war on international trade. He is a deal guy. He pushes things to the edge. He goes way in advance of what other people might do. I think it is a time when you have to be a bit careful. get an exemption in Australia. We cannot afford for our leaders to be openly disparaging. Winston will not comment, for instance, on Trump. . This is what opposition to the TPP looks like. WE LOOK BACK TO THE START OF THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IN NEW ZEALAND ` A DOCUMENTARY LOOKING AT WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN 1972. THEY'RE AT HOME, AND THAT IS THE PLACE THEY SHOULD BE. YOU THINK A WOMEN'S PLACE IS IN THE HOME? IT'S IN THE HOME, NOT TO BE OUT EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK. AS WE MARK INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY AND 125 YEARS OF WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE IN NEW ZEALAND, IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK BACK AT THE EARLY DAYS OF FEMINISM HERE. THIS NEXT ITEM IS FROM A DOCUMENTARY IN 1972 ` PUT TOGETHER BY ROD VAUGHAN ` THAT LOOKED AT THE ISSUES WOMEN WERE GRAPPLING WITH 45 YEARS AGO. FORMER GREEN MP SUE KEDGLEY IS ONE OF THE WOMEN MAKING THE CASE FOR CHANGE. THEY'RE AT HOME, AND THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. YOU THINK A WOMAN'S PLACE IS IN THE HOME? IT'S IN THE HOME, NOT TO BE OUT EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK. MALE PREJUDICE DOESN'T CHANGE, NOT IN 100 YEARS. WHO CAN BLAME, THEN, AUCKLAND LIBERATIONISTS FOR GOING INTO MOURNING OVER THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN? THE MOCK FUNERAL WAS HELD IN AUCKLAND RECENTLY TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THEIR CLAIM THAT NEW ZEALAND NOW LAGS BEHIND THE REST OF THE WORLD IN THE EMANCIPATION OF WOMEN. WOMEN'S LIB LEADER, SUE KEDGLEY ` WOMEN DO NOT HAVE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY. WE DON'T HAVE CHILDCARE CENTRES. WE DON'T HAVE EQUAL PAY. WE DON'T HAVE EQUAL OCCUPATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES. SUE KEDGLEY HAS MADE THE BREAK, BUT FOR MOST OTHER NEW ZEALAND WOMEN THERE REMAINS THE TRADITIONAL ROLE OF MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN. BASICALLY, WOMEN HAVE BEEN PRESUMED TO BE INFERIOR TO MEN, AND NO ONE COULD ACCEPT $11 A WEEK LESS FOR DOING THE SAME JOB IF SHE DIDN'T THINK THAT, IN SOME WAY, SHE WAS INFERIOR TO THE MAN. OFTEN, THE MARGIN BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE WAGE RATES IS MORE THAN $11. GRADUATE DIANE STEWART LEFT UNIVERSITY FOR A JOB WITH ONE OF THE PRODUCER BOARDS. ONE WOMAN, WHO WAS ON AN EXECUTIVE LEVEL WITH THREE OTHER MEN IN OUR SECTION, WAS EARNING, I WOULD THINK, SLIGHTLY BELOW HALF OF WHAT THE MALE EXECUTIVES WERE EARNING, ALTHOUGH SHE WAS CARRYING JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY. PEOPLE ARE TAKING US SERIOUSLY AND SEEING THAT THE TREMENDOUS TENSIONS AND PROBLEMS THAT HAVE ARISEN CANNOT BE SWEPT UNDER THE TABLE ANY LONGER. FACING UP TO RIGHT NOW. Let's have some hits and misses. Jacinda was a rock star. They have to deliver on a reset now. I think that reset needs to be beyond an aid model. It needs to be a complete transformation in the relationship and partnership. Maybe a kind of EU model. A hit and don't miss. My hit is the change in eligibility rules for pensions in the Cook Islands, Niue and Tokelau. My miss is the Department of corrections. The hit was David Parker signing the TPP. It was great to see. The ridiculous nurse of the election campaign last year, a few tweaks made. My miss ` explaining exactly the Chinese threat in the Pacific. It is not tenable for the government to talk about Pacific resets, threats that haven't been seen since 1945 and not actually say what they are talking about. REMEMBER TO LOOK OUT FOR MY NEXT Q+A BUSINESS PODCAST ONLINE AND ON ITUNES NEXT THURSDAY. AND WHENA OWEN WILL ALSO HAVE ANOTHER INSTALMENT OF TE TARI ` THE OFFICE. THAT'LL BE ONLINE NEXT WEEK TOO. HERE'S SOME OF WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT. IT'S FOR JACINDA. SOMEONE IN HUTT SOUTH HAS MADE SOME RED BABY CLOTHES. AM I ALLOWED TO HAVE A LOOK? OH, I LIKE THAT! LITTLE CAP SLEEVES. AND THEY'RE COLOUR APPROPRIATE. THAT'S RIGHT. IN RED, YES. MARAE IS NEXT. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND CHELSEA BRADY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2018