MORENA, GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M CORIN DANN. LABOUR PROMISED BIG ON HEALTH AT THE ELECTION ` NEW HOSPITALS, REDUCED GP FEES, BETTER MENTAL HEALTH CARE ` BUT CAN THEY DELIVER? I'LL BE ASKING HEALTH MINISTER DAVID CLARK, MY LEAD INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. THEN THE UNPLEASANT BUT VERY IMPORTANT BUSINESS OF GETTING RID OF HUMAN EFFLUENT. WHENA OWEN LOOKS AT THE NEW WAYS COUNCILS ARE DEALING WITH SEWAGE AND WHY THEY'RE FALLING FOUL OF SOME RATEPAYERS. THERE'LL BE A DEFINITE SMELL OF AMMONIA, WHICH IS LOVELY ISN'T IT (?) AND I WON'T BE HANGING THE WASHING OUT. I WON'T BE DOING THAT ANY MORE. AND WE'LL HAVE INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL, DR JENNIFER CURTIN, EFESO COLLINS AND PETER DUNNE. CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND INGRID LAUDER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2018 BUT WE START WITH SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. QUESTION ` WILL FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON'S PASSIONATE WARNING TO THE US THIS WEEK ABOUT THE EVILS OF NATIONALISM AND ISOLATION HAVE ANY IMPACT WITH TRUMP? ANSWER - HARDLY. TRUMP'S OUT TO FIX AMERICA, NOT THE WORLD. AND THAT LOVE-FEST AT THE WHITE HOUSE THIS WEEK BETWEEN THE TRUMPS AND MACRONS, MORE FAUX OR FACADE. QUESTION ` IS REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT MINISTER SHANE JONES CHANNELLING DONALD TRUMP? QUESTION ` WHY DO YOU ASK? BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BRING IN HIS OWN TOUGH GUYS TO GET THINGS DONE. QUESTION ` WHY WOULD HE THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA FOR POLITICIANS TO APPOINT PUBLIC SERVANTS? ANSWER ` I WONDER... QUESTION ` IF THE GOVERNMENT'S HAPPY TO FUND ITS BILLION-DOLLAR AUCKLAND ROADING PLAN FROM PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS, WHY RULE OUT NEW HOSPITALS FUNDED THE SAME WAY? ANSWER ` WELL, ONE CAN ONLY THINK IT'S IDEOLOGY AT PLAY HERE. BUT LET'S ASK HEALTH MINISTER DAVID CLARK. Good morning. It's an interesting question because money is a big problem for health. You never have enough. Why not use the private sector, for example and Dunedin, to save yourself some money? International evidence suggests that PPPs and health don't work out as people planned them. You end up paying a lot more overtime for the same assets. A private business is going to cover of risk, no one knows what the future and how this is like. Is it ideology? Not ideology. I'm talking about evidence. I could support a making as there is a line you've drawn between roads and hospitals? Roads a predictable. The problem is you've identified $14 billion worthof hospitals are going to have to be built over the next 10 years. From what I can see, Grant Robertson says he's got 10 billion that the government will contribute. Where is the other 4 billion coming from? He can't borrow any more. The comes of the balance sheets from the DHB. It is a long way up. We're talking 10 years. There is no doubt we've got a plan for these things, and that is something what have asked for an asset management plan for our health system. It could be more. Where is the plan to have the money? If only because much capital available. There are other things that need it ` like rail. How can you have enough? The government's put aside capital. This government is prepared to tackle challenges. We will make sure every dollar spent carefully. Talking to people in health sector, people said they voted National because even though there were sympathetic to many other things you are doing, they didn't believe he would have enough money left overfor the nurses. That is a reality. The nurses arent gonna get what they want because you have seven other things to people. We may not be what afford everythin thrown away we never pretended we could. He went to the election campaign saying you would deliver. In the first term. Just back nurses pay ` pay equity is the biggest thing. Pay equity as further down. It was in a negotiation. It's huge, but it needs to be tackled. The offer rejected by the nurses was a bigger offer than under the last government. Why shouldn't they get pay equity when other sectors are? Nurses feel like they are earning less than caregivers. Why shouldn't they be getting pay equity now? There is a process to work through. The estimated cost from collective-bargaining and pay equity over three years is $750 million. You don't have it. these are big sums. We did our sums very carefully in opposition. We have accounted for everything and we will deliver on them. It would be easier if you could borrow money, if you relax the rules. On one hand, people want to suspend more, and on the other, they want to spend less. Is there a crisis in health? There are some areas where there is a crisis. Mental health, People acknowledge that is at a crisis level. We have a lot of staff that turn up every day in and underfunded environment for years. Middlemore ` is that a crisis? The criticisms that your government has seized on issues with Middlemore in terms of sewage and eaten it up to give yourself some room. The story about Middlemore came out in the DHB. We need to do it step-by-step, and where to get to do that. Your government, coming of a press conference on Monday, we saw Grant Robertson and a prime minister, and say there is a big crisis. You can't underfunded the health system for nine years and expecting to happen. I think the DHB is managing those issues, we have a serious program of work ahead. You going to announce somechanges? I've appointed Mark Goshie to lead the DHB. Along him to support him as a crown monitor. He has expressed a desire for the support. You've put a crown monitor? If the deficit is blowing up. You don't have confidence in him? You're putting one of your people on the board? We need to rejuvenate the board. I make no apologies for that. If we have the same people doing the same things, look at the same results. Do you think how the process of effectively pushing out two board members as well as you could have? I can understand that they upset. These appointments are at the ministersdiscretion. They are not entitlements. We need to give the public assurance that we have the right people going in there to address those issues. Judy McGregor ` going into Waitemata. You've got your people in there now. Will you demand that they, like the last government, deliver surpluses? I will expect prudent financialmanagements. The chairsthe DHB is understand that. Surpluses? Every dollar spent carefully. I will promised they will manage prudently. Why notpromised surpluses? The expectation should be for you that it surpluses. We want them to be delivering efficient services. Nzers need to know they can have a care they need in hospital. The next step in the responsibility of the board is to manage your finances prudently. What we've seen over the next couple of weeks isn't a failing of our DHB's. You've putting the people you want. We get that. There is a quasi-democratic board that people get to elect some of them, but the government has their people. We have an amazing health system. We have services that are afforded in New Zealand more cheaply than overseas. We have quality healthcare. New Zealanders trust the healthcare we get from doctors and hospitals, but they need to be sustainable. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Governments have skated around this DHB issue for a while. I know it its an upheaval for the sector I wont promise significant change this term, but we want healthcare for the best prices for New Zealanders. Last year over half a million New Zealanders couldn't afford to go to the GP. One out of four can't afford to go. You can bring down prices? I'm not going to skate around that. I'm not going to make the budget announcement today. We will make healthcare more for affordable? When can we see the average get under 30? We can't announce that today. We have to clear the DHB deficits. We will make sure they are better funded. We do believe the health care needs to be appropriately funded and sustainably funded. You've got a National Cancer agency? We've got a lot of things you've announced. Will we see that this term? We will see a lot in that regard. When government now, and that is different. I do have access to a lot of researchers to the best international evidence. I want to make sure every dollar I spent can goas far as can possibly go. Looking to primary health care in the studies and the research done, the issue really seems to be about the poor health access and outcomes for Maori, Pacific Island and those in disadvantaged groups. That is a problem. Why did you have a closing gaps program targeted at those groups? I can'tagree more. This is why got to politics.. I'm concerned about the gap. My policies are all about equity. How will you do it differently? What the research seems to say is that you put the money in, it's the same system. It's gotta go in the same way. How will you make sure Maori Pacific get better outcomes? Boards will get held to account. Where is a detail? The way the model works encourages DHBs. Why not a closing the gaps type program? It's about better access to services for all groups in the population. That's why I stood for the Labour Party. come back and talk about mental health. STAY WITH US. WE'LL BE BACK WITH THE HEALTH MINISTER AFTER THE BREAK TO TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES IN MENTAL HEALTH AND ASK SOME VIEWER QUESTIONS. Welcome back to Q+A. The health Minister David Clark is with us. Talking to people in the health sector this week, one of the things that came up with mental health was ED nurses. They said they are seeing a massive increase in a number of presentations at emergency departmentssuffering mental illness. What we do about that? We know we have an ageing demographic that includes dementia. Wwe will need new approaches, new ideas are tackling these issues and we will need to increased capacity. What does increase capacity mean? Do you mean in in care or the community? Bboth. What my priorities is to make sure people get the care they need. � of people detect hospital are preventable if they get the care they need in the community. At the hospital level, we need to know the services that people require when they get their. You got enquiry looking at this issue. How quickly can you implement those? I'm imagining we won't be able to implement them at once. We'll take it step-by-step. The purpose of making enquiry independence is that it will bring forth hard recommendations. I don't want to get some water down version as Minister. My job is to manage a prioritisation? What is your feeling about the balance of mental health? Are we keeping people in community too much, we not putting people in care enough? Which sometimes has been used as a cost-cutting measure. We need to change community attitudes and make sure that mental health is afforded the priority it should have. It shouldn't have possible to cut corners on most vulnerable. There are some things that have stronge evidence `nurses in schools . We will continue to roll the program. We will do some things in the interim. I'm not going to announce the budget detail today. Timeframes on the nurses? We have done Canterbury schools. When will rest of the country see it? That will be on a budget. Why is money taken from tobacco taxes not directly targeted at treatment for cancer? Proportion of that money goes into prevention. Health dollars is spread as we think best in terms of where we can get the best bang for buck. Those cancer treatments are generally public funded. The money is afforded out of a general taxation. The other question is around the backlog of medicines on waiting lists. This is an interesting question because are you going to look at these next generation drugs? We have some money put aside for once unfunded could save lives? I'm looking at at all those things again. We need to spend health dollar carefully. I'm looking at overseas models and went for next steps. Making sure New Zealanders can access affordable care, starting with the priorities of public care mental health. Getting a better cancer outcome is right up there because so many New Zealanders face cancer. There is a lot of money. Jonathan Coleman criticised over that. He says once you get to government, you see how much it costs for new treatments. Have you got a sort of money? I'll face that when I get there. Wwe do have money. You have discretionary money. I want to push back on the myth that we don't have money set aside. Jackie says what's happening to the third medical school proposed? When can we expect the final outcome? That is an issue I'm grappling with. The principles are clear. You need to recruit from rural areas. You to give Gps opportunities for advancement. We know what the solution looks like. We had to work through the process we find how best to provide that. Connor Roberts says are you looking at expanding public dental health care? I am. Iit's unlikely we'll get over the line this term, but we we are prioritising which initiatives we can do now and which ones will do later. If you want to be more ambitious in that space, we have to step at a plan to get there. So you're looking at long-term subsidies for adults? Can't say taht yet. I want to see more affordable access. We have a huge unmet need in healthcare. We have to do better over time. Final question ` I thought labour was supposed to announce a new Dunedin hospital site this month. Yes we did say that. I can tell you an announcement is pending. What the success look like the as health Minister? You have so many demands. Never have enough money. More New Zealanders having enough access to the services they need. in a first world country, so many people can't accessa GP. Thank you for your time. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ THE PANEL'S READY TO GIVE THEIR VIEW, AFTER THE BREAK. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR JENNIFER CURTIN FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; AUCKLAND COUNCILLOR AND LABOUR MEMBER EFESO COLLINS; AND PETER DUNNE, FORMER UNITED FUTURE LEADER AND A FORMER ASSOCIATE HEALTH MINISTER UNDER BOTH LABOUR AND NATIONAL. Massive interview there. A lot to cover. Do we think, Jennifer, the health system is in crisis? We saw the government talk that up. Maybe not David Clark but certainly Jacinda Ardern. I think the term crisis gets bandied about a lot. We also heard epidemic use this week quite a lot. The thing we know about how voters feel about this is that every election survey we have done in the past 10 years shows that health and expenditure on health as one of the key issues that really matters to voters and is one of those issues they are really happy to answer a question that says yes we are prepared to recognise that we may have to pay more tax in order to see expenditure grow. This is not going to be a low-cost expenditure area for any government going forward. We know the demographics. We have seen all the issues that exist. They might frame it as a crisis But we could say it is one of those wicked perennial problems. We will always need more money for the health budget. And how they make money about where that money goes, but they need to know that Labour and National voters it is something that they really care about. The closing the gaps idea is not necessarily something that would appeal to voters. The universalism of our system is really appealing. Efeso, that is the problem. Maori and Pacific Island groups are not getting the outcomes they should. It is a crisis for the people I represent in Manukau. We have high rates of rheumatic fever and that is a crisis issue. It has not been dealt very well. We have diabetes, gout, cardiovascular disease. We do not hear a lot about these issues. We have to be confident that going to hospital and going to have that level of service. We need the confidence that the people down south have confidence in Middlemore hospital. That is at capacity at the moment. Three new board chairs today announced. I think there would be some concern. I have an education background so sending a Commissioner to a school that is what is happening. There is major concern down south about what is going on at Middlemore. There is a decreasing level of confidence in the DHB. They have a report about the capital expenditure. It became a political football. National and, Labour, the last few months. The bottom line for us as there are people in our community who need the services and they need to have confidence to go in and know they will get good service. When you have an emergency department in Middlemore that has been closed because it is too full, that does not breed confidence. As National being unfairly attacked here? It is population growth. They kept a lid on it during their term. Is this a Labour ramping it up? I think to some extent that is true. But you used the word is there a crisis? There is always a crisis in health. There will always be more demand than the capacities to supply. What health policy essentially comes down to and it is a hard truth, and it seems Dr Clark is recognising this, is about rationing. It is rationing resources. You cannot please everyone. You have to make some tough priority decisions. It will suit political parties at various times to describe that as being a crisis because of this particular group is not being satisfied. But the reality is, as he is clearly understanding, being in opposition when you can criticise everything and coming into government facing the reality is two different things. The issue as they made a lot of promises. They did. It will be difficult. Nurses like teachers and education, have high spectator is a Labour led government they will meet their needs. The nurses have already voted to take strike action not knowing outcome of the negotiations are currently underway. There will be pressing short-term legal problems and how you resolve those expectations. The Minister is very clear to say that a lot of decisions are some way down the track. Don't exceed any thing too soon. Not sure what the direction is. I don't think that will be acceptable to some of the groups, the nurses, the GPs. They have pinned so much on a change of government. The DHB issue has been a real mess over the last few weeks. Do we need to reform our DHB's? I think the thing about health, we have talked about it with a different regions having different needs, potentially means that structure is an important one. There are 20 DHB is an we elect some and some are appointed, we have to recognise there are regional differences. Generally the model seems to be working. It is when there are financial pressures and unanticipated infrastructure or asset management issues that come out, this is a much more pressing situation to sort. To some degree, it is only in the first term that a government can blame the previous government. We will see this backwards and forwards about Middlemore for are we while yet. And there are other assets that will need fixing up that are unanticipated. That will only last three years. After that they have to own the policy themselves. Do you think the DHB works for your community? These are the issues that are happening in our communities and we need regional understanding. Labour has been really good at looking at enquiries and having reviews. I think it might be time to lead a review on the DHB model. I am not convinced that it works. If you compare it to schools and how we devolve the running of schools to boards of trustees Down south they do not work very well. It is taken years to get the level of governance training to fully participate in the boards. I do the same thing. Many voters in regional Council elections, when they look at the list of who to vote for. They might recognise the names that is a stab in the dark. They were established at a time when we have centralised control. There was the health funding agency. That is where the difficulty began. It wasn't for local democracy. Half were appointed and half were elected. You could not get local people making local decisions. They were always compromised. The second problem which I discovered, as a health minister, the Minister has no power to direct the DHB. They are all economist. Autonomous. The consequences between the local and the ministerial and the autonomy of the boards, it is built for gridlock. David Clark made an interesting comment this morning when he said this will be a matter for the DHB to deliver through their priorities process. An acknowledgement that he is the minister can say here is what we want to do, it these are our plans, but here's start with the DHB saying yes minister we will do that. If they say no but their priorities a thing else, he is caught. Is this government being too locked into its ideology about use of private hospitals and private contractors to build hospitals with to mark if you want to build new facilities, what is the best way of affording those without draining other aspects of the system in terms of service delivery? Some form of public private partnership is appropriate an investment in those oscillatory is as appropriate. But it should be case-by-case. It should not be an absolute rule. What is your sense of the public's mood about that? There is a big uptake in the number of private health insurance. Children signed up. The private healthcare system is one thing. Private funding of hospitals is another. There is an expectation that this is a public asset and there will always be in a universal aspect to this. There is always a risk with private funding that there has to be surpluses that shareholders of those private enterprises will expect some return for their money. We expect public services not necessarily to run at a profit. There is always tension. Do you think David Clark is trying to protect that universality. He is trying toprotecting coachmen from the private sector. I would not label at ideological. We could look at that National health system in the UK and there are similar fiscal pressures on their system. We can see the Conservative government is really determined to think about 10 year long-term planning and new technology and new drugs and new assets. They are being realistic that it will take more tax and tied taxes being part of that. I am not convinced that a really strict private public model is necessary. BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK, I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT WE HAVE PLENTY OF EXTRA Q+A CONTENT ON OUR WEBSITE. HERE'S A CLIP FROM WHENA'S LATEST EPISODE OF TE TARI ` THE OFFICE ` AND SHE'S INSIDE CRUSHER COLLINS' CAGE. HELLO. GOOD TO SEE YOU. GOOD TO SEE YOU. CAN I ASK ABOUT THAT? YES. YOU'VE GIVEN THIS PRIDE OF PLACE. YES. BEFORE YOU EVEN WALK IN, THIS IS WHAT WE SEE. IS IT A WARNING TO YOUR VISITORS WHEN THEY COME IN THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE NO NONSENSE? STRAIGHT-UP COLLINS. WELL, I GUESS THAT IS A GOOD THING FOR PEOPLE TO THINK. I GUESS I JUST WALK PAST IT ALL THE TIME, DON'T EVEN NOTICE IT. YOU ARE A REAL FIGHTER. PEOPLE LIKE THAT ABOUT YOU, DON'T THEY? WELL, I AM A BIT OF A FIGHTER. AND SOMETIMES... I THINK SOMETIMES I POSSIBLY OVERDO IT A WEE BIT, AND IT'S BECAUSE I GET BORED. I JUST GET FRUSTRATED. I DON'T SUFFER FOOLS. ARE YOU BORED AT THE MOMENT, BEING IN OPPOSITION? DEFINITELY NOT. I FIND OPPOSITION INVIGORATING. I'm sure she does. WE'VE ALSO POSTED MY LATEST BUSINESS PODCAST ` AN INTERVIEW WITH NEW FLETCHER CEO ROSS TAYLOR. YOU'LL FIND THAT ON SOUNDCLOUD AND ITUNES AND OUR WEBSITE, OF COURSE. TVNZ.CO.NZ/SHOWS/QANDA. AFTER THE BREAK, YOU MAY NOT HAVE HEARD OF DEEP BORE INJECTION. IT'S A WAY OF GETTING RID OF HUMAN EFFLUENT BY PIPING IT DEEP INTO THE GROUND. AND YES, IT'S HAPPENING HERE, AS COUNCILS TRY TO FIND INNOVATIVE WAYS OF DEALING WITH WASTEWATER. WHENA OWEN'S REPORT, NEXT. COUNCILS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ARE UNDER PRESSURE TO UPDATE THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE, NOT LEAST THEIR SEWERAGE SYSTEMS, TASKED WITH GETTING RID OF ALL THE HUMAN WASTE WE PRODUCE. IT'S NOT A NICE TOPIC, BUT IT'S A CRITICAL COUNCIL FUNCTION AND ONE THAT MUST BE AFFORDABLE AND MEET STRICT ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS. SO COUNCILS ARE COMING UP WITH, WELL, INNOVATIVE WAYS OF DISPOSING OF HUMAN EFFLUENT, AND SOME OF THOSE SCHEMES ARE CAUSING A RIGHT STINK AMONG RATEPAYERS. WHENA OWEN EXPLAINS. RURAL FEATHERSTON, A LIFESTYLER'S DREAM ` OR SO VIRGINIA LOVE THOUGHT WHEN HER FAMILY BOUGHT LAND HERE FIVE YEARS AGO. IT'S LOVELY, ISN'T IT? LOOK, IT'S BEAUTIFUL. IT IS BEAUTIFUL. BUT IMAGINE SEEING THOSE HUGE TROJAN IRRIGATORS GOING UP AND DOWN. WHEN VIRGINIA'S FAMILY AND THEIR LIFESTYLER NEIGHBOURS BOUGHT THEIR PROPERTIES, THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE COUNCIL HAD PLANS TO SPRAY TREATED HUMAN EFFLUENT ON THIS 166HA BLOCK RIGHT NEXT DOOR. AND THERE WILL BE A SMELL OF AMMONIA, WHICH IS LOVELY, ISN'T IT? SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WANT TO OPEN THE WINDOWS AT NIGHT, ARE YOU? AND YOU'RE GONNA WANNA GO OUT AND HANG YOUR WASHING OUT. I WONT BE DOING THAT ANY MORE. VIRGINIA AND HER NEIGHBOURS WON'T BE DISMISSED AS NIMBYS. THEY SUPPORT THE COUNCIL'S GOAL TO HAVE NO WASTEWATER DISCHARGES INTO RIVERS BY 2040. BUT VIRGINIA FEELS HER FAMILY ARE PAYING THE PRICE. THEY'VE SAID IN A MEETING TO THE COMMUNITY THAT THERE WILL BE GLOBULES OF SEWAGE. SOLIDS? SOLIDS. OK. YES. AND IT DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE 100%. THEY CANNOT GUARANTEE US THAT WE CANNOT GET E COLI ON OUR ROOF. THE FAMILY DRINK THE RAINWATER COLLECTED FROM THEIR ROOF. OTHERS RELY ON BORES. THERE ARE AROUND 40 IN THE AREA, AN AREA RENOWNED FOR ITS HIGH WATER TABLE. WOULD YOU LIVE NEXT DOOR TO IT? WOULD I? UH, YEAH, I MEAN, IF THE RIGHT PROPERTY CAME UP, YEAH. THAT'S THE COUNCIL GUY WHO FRONTS UP TO THE FEATHERSTON COMMUNITY ABOUT THE WASTEWATER PLANS. CHIEF EXECUTIVE PAUL CRIMP AND MAYOR VIV NAPIER ARE SHOWING US THEIR NEWLY COMPLETED DISCHARGE-TO-LAND PLANT OVER IN MARTINBOROUGH ` THE COUNCIL SPENDING AROUND 30 MILLION ON THEIR WASTEWATER PROJECTS. ALTHOUGH SOME BACTERIA AND MICROORGANISMS GET THROUGH THE PROCESS, THE SEWAGE, THE COUNCIL SAYS, IS TREATED TO A HIGH DEGREE. YOU CAN NEVER SAY NEVER. HOWEVER, THE MONITORING REGIMES ARE SUCH THAT WE SHOULD PICK UP ANYTHING AND BE ABLE TO NOTIFY ANY AFFECTED PARTIES IN PLENTY OF TIME. THIS WASTEWATER WAS FLUSHED DOWN MARTINBOROUGH LOOS A MONTH AGO. I'M ABOUT 20M AWAY, AND I CAN'T DETECT ANY OFFENSIVE ODOUR FROM HERE. BUT MAYBE IT'S JUST TODAY'S WEATHER CONDITIONS. MAYBE IT'S THE LOCAL PINOT GRIS CONTENT. (MELLOW MUSIC) AS A COMMUNITY, WE'RE NOT SIMPLY PREPARED TO SAY, 'WE'RE HAPPY TO BE THE GUINEA PIG 'UNTIL WE KNOW THE ANSWER TO ALL THESE ISSUES.' THE ISSUES LAWYER AND ROBINSON BAY RESIDENT LEE ROBINSON IS REFERRING TO ARISE FROM AKAROA'S ONGOING WASTEWATER SAGA. THE LATEST COUNCIL PROPOSAL IS KNOWN AS DEEP BORE INJECTION, WHERE THE TREATED HUMAN EFFLUENT IS PIPED DEEP ` IN THIS CASE, 35M DOWN ` INTO THE GROUND. WE NEED TO KNOW THE EFFECTS OF WHAT THE WATER WILL HAVE ON OUR NATURAL RESOURCES. WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO IT WHEN IT'S AT THIS LEVEL UNDER THE GROUND. WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE COST IS, AND THEN WHEN THAT'S LOOKED AT, WE NEED TO COMPARE OTHER SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED. THE ONLY SIMILAR SCHEME OF DEEP BORE INJECTION IN NEW ZEALAND IS IN RUSSELL. THE FAR NORTH DISTRICT COUNCIL TOLD Q + A... BUT MOST RESIDENTS, IT SAID, DRINK RAINWATER ANYWAY. NOEL ROBERTS, WATER NEW ZEALAND'S TECHNICAL MANAGER, IS TRACKING THE LATEST PROPOSAL FOR AKAROA. THE METHOD WORKS WELL IN THE AUSTRALIAN DESERT, HE SAYS, BUT WE'RE IN AN EARTHQUAKE ZONE, RELIANT IN SOME AREAS ON PRIVATE BORES. FOR NEW ZEALAND TO DO IT AS A MEANS OF DUMPING EFFLUENT AS A CHEAP OPTION, THERE ARE A FEW CONCERNS OF 'IS THAT THE RIGHT MOVE TO MAKE?' LOCAL GOVERNMENT NEW ZEALAND INSISTS COUNCILS ARE UP AGAINST IT LIKE NEVER BEFORE. WELL, THERE'S THREE THINGS GOING ON. THE FIRST IS THAT OUR POPULATION IS RISING ` BOTH RESIDENT POPULATION AND THE TOURIST NUMBERS ARE GOING UP. SO THERE'S MORE DEMAND, AND SO THE FACILITIES NEED TO BE BIGGER. THE SECOND THING IS STANDARDS HAVE RISEN. SO THE EXPECTATIONS OF HEALTH AND SAFETY AND ENVIRONMENTAL POLLUTION ETC HAVE GONE UP, SO WASTEWATER PLANTS NEED TO BUILT TO A HIGHER STANDARD. AND THE THIRD THING IS THAT A LOT OF THE PLANTS THAT WERE PUT IN 50, 60, 70 YEARS AGO ` THEY'RE WEARING OUT, OR THEY'RE OBSOLETE AND THEY HAVE TO BE REPLACED. SO YOU PUT ALL OF THOSE TOGETHER ` IT NOT ONLY MEANS THERE'S A LOT OF DEMAND FOR NEW FACILITIES, IT MEANS COUNCILS ARE REALLY STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR THEM. OVER IN MARTINBOROUGH AT THE SETTLING PONDS, THERE'S A WAR OF BALEAGE ` STOCK FEED, CUT GRASS IRRIGATED WITH HUMAN WASTEWATER IS ALSO HARVESTED HERE IN CARTERTON, IN TAUPO, MASTERTON AND PARTS OF MID-CANTERBURY. IT'S THEN SOLD TO FARMERS. WE MAKE SURE THAT THE PURCHASERS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE IT'S COME FROM AND THE TYPE OF BALEAGE IT IS. YEAH, SO IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO LET THEM KNOW WHERE IT'S COME FROM`? ABSOLUTELY. WHAT WE KNOW IS THE ANIMALS WON'T EAT IT. WHO SAYS THAT? A LOT OF FARMERS. FONTERRA HAS ACTUALLY BANNED ALL LACTATING COWS FROM EATING THIS SEWAGE. IT IS FORBIDDEN. FONTERRA TOLD US ITS RULES ARE VERY STRICT AROUND FEEDING BALEAGE IRRIGATED WITH TREATED HUMAN EFFLUENT. WE ASKED THEM TO EXPLAIN THIS ON CAMERA. THEY SAID THEY HAD NO ONE AVAILABLE AND SENT US THROUGH SOME NOTES. THIS IS THE LIFE, ISN'T IT? AND WE DON'T WANT THAT SPOILT. VIRGINIA LOVE AND HER NEIGHBOURS IN RURAL FEATHERSTON WILL FIND OUT IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS WHETHER THE PROPOSED WASTEWATER OPERATION NEXT DOOR IS THE FINAL GO-AHEAD. CAN'T THEY TAKE IT FURTHER AWAY? CAN'T THEY TAKE IT TO A FARM WHERE THERE'S ONE HOUSE AND 100 ACRES? I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS, TO BE HONEST. That is a tricky one. Peter Dunne, you must have been a local government minister somewhere along the lines. Yes I was. I was undersecretary. What you make of this? It feels a bit uncomfortable. My link to this is when I was associate health minister, I put up a budget bid last year around this area. The Labour government set aside $100,000,000.14 years for upgrading small rural sewerage schemes. That expired in 2015. There were a number of schemes still to be completed. I thought 25 million in last year's budget to complete this work. But Treasury said it was not a priority so it was not funded. It makes me very angry now to think about that and you see this sort of thing where we have small community struggling with how they dispose of their human waste and sewerage And devise these types of solution when as Dave Cull points out there is still a massive problem. Treasury might want to revisit it. It is a problem for big councils two. Wastewater, Auckland has issues when it floods. . I was thinking about what it was like the residents of Mangere. There are issues with the smell the treatment place leaves behind. I commend them on doing the best job they can. We have had stormwater get into the wastewater and then it is impossible. Wwith the mana re-treatment plant, we have a couple of years left to run on the RMA. That article opens with investment. Councils have to think carefully about where their investment goes and how much money they are bringing in. There is a technocratic psyche about not wanting to take on more rates because we don't want to spend too much but it results in underinvestment and we have a structure that needs to be replaced. These are not sexy issues. They don't get the profile. Perhaps that is why they are not getting the emphasis they should as Peter Dunne mentioned. People thinks it is about roads, rates and rubbish the local government. But there are significant issues councils across the country have to deal with and there are pressures about asset management and they have to do 30 year infrastructure strategies and the rateable base is not even across the country. New Zealanders behind a lot of countries and how it funds local government for these kind of issues. We ask our councils to rely on a rateable base. We don't have annual grants from central government to enable Local councils to really have a secure knowledge that they can fund these kind of infrastructure needs. There has been some really interesting work done by David Shan about thinking about loans and the use of debt rather than increasing rates everything that is needed. But the broader fiscal position of New Zealand, why does this not get applied to our A star rated local councils and use a sensible debt funding. If you are in opposition now and holding this government to account and they relax those debt targets so they could spend more on a structure, would you be giving them an easy ride? You will be hammering them to not sticking to their budget. Youthful back into the priorities argument. Is that the reason they are lowering the debt targets to pay for storage in small towns? It is a silly argument that is the way politicians behave. Jennifer is right. The small rateable base of a lot of thosecommunities, some of them are poor and some of them are affluent. Around the east coast of the North Island, there are very small communities but they need a good local storage schemes which they can't get. It has an impact on their health. Should there be more mergers? There needs to be more funding aavailable to complete those schemes. Does they need to be more innovative ways of getting that debts and better infrastructure bonds, capturing the value. All of these sorts of things. We have been talking about this for a long time. Can we depend on some revenue to come in from the government that we can actually depend on? We get into this major political discussion about rates. The city is growing by 40,000 people a year. We have to get all the strands of revenue, not just rates. Let's consult widely about what we can do. They need to be an ongoing discussion with the state about what monies they could make available. It is going to suffer otherwise. We will not getting a structure we need. OUR PANEL'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK WITH THEIR HITS AND MISSES OF THE POLITICAL WEEK. AND WE LOOK BACK TO MILK IN SCHOOLS, A HEALTH INITIATIVE LAUNCHED BY THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT BACK IN 1937. LET'S TAKE SOME OF YOUR FEEDBACK NOW. IF YOU ARE OF A CERTAIN AGE, YOU MAY HAVE MEMORIES OF THE FREE MILK PROVIDED BY THE GOVERNMENT TO SCHOOL CHILDREN BETWEEN 1937 AND 1967. A WORLD FIRST, THE SCHEME WAS INTRODUCED BY MICHAEL SAVAGE'S LABOUR GOVERNMENT. EVERY DAY, A HALF PINT OF MILK WOULD BE GIVEN TO EACH CHILD, AND IN THE EARLY DAYS, AN APPLE TOO. IT WAS DROPPED BY NATIONAL IN 1967 BECAUSE OF THE COST AND BECAUSE OF DOUBTS ABOUT THE HEALTH BENEFITS. THIS REPORT IS FROM 1938. IN A LAND FLOWING WITH MILK, THE FOUNDATION FOOD FOR THE YOUNG, IT WAS NOT AVAILABLE FOR THEM. LOOK AT THESE TEENS. NO MORE SEA BREEZE. MILK WILL DO THE JOB. UNDER THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT, THE FREE MILK SCHEME IS BASICALLY EVERYWHERE. THE SCHEME WAS COMMENCED ON THE 1ST OF MARCH, 1937. AND MILK IS NOW AVAILABLE TO 160,000 CHILDREN. AND THE SCHEME IS BEING EXPANDED AS RAPIDLY AS POSSIBLE. THESE KIDDIES HAVE THEIR MILK TOO, AND IT'S CERTAINLY A GRAND DAY WHEN THEY'RE SELECTED TO DISTRIBUTE THE BOTTLES. 'PLEASE CAN I HAVE MINE?' HAHA! THE KIDDIES THAT NEVER TIRE OF THEIR MILK. JUST WATCH THIS. WAIT A MINUTE, GIRLIE. THERE'S ANOTHER DROP THERE. I can't think of anything worse than a pint of warm milk. Let's get to our hits and misses for the week. Efeso, has been a strange week with Anzac Day in the middle. Mine is Phil Twyford and Phil Goff with the announcement of billions of dollars going into a structure in Auckland. We can get out of gridlock and there are plans to make it happen over the next 10 years. My only issue as I would like to see light rail go through to my area. My miss is websites that are going to promote the ethnic make up of some areas. I think we are promoting a prejudice if we are saying these are mainly Pacific Island or Maori areas so don't buy theRe. My hits would be the strongly development between North Korea. It was probably a think it will a month ago. One of the fears to watch as it might lead to Donald Trump getting nominated for the Nobel peace prize. He claims credit for everything. You may has the next ordinary meltdown on Fox TV when he gave himself a plus on everything. It would be the ultimate ironyif he got the peace prize for bringing the two Koreas together. The miss is Shane Jones. Partly is now. His mouth. It is public money, as a former regional development Minister, admittedly 30 years ago, there are big problems in this area, and I remember being told at the time by Treasury that any decisions that I madewould be reviewable by the auditor general. So sometimes you are happy to be told no by the Treasury? This is about the public finance act. Decisions committing funding on behalf of the ground, that's what this money is, I decisions at the auditor general will bewanting to be satisfied that they meet it. Shane Jones doesn't want to be bothered with the detail. There is a risk here Of improper funding decisions being made and the whole credibility of the fund being brought into disrepute. My hit is a productivity commission report on low emission targets and it is five hunter pages. It is huge. They want to see signal centre the agricultural sector that it is time to come in. 48% about emissions. It is open for public participation and consultation until 8 June, you do not have to read the whole report. How brave is this government going to be about bringing agriculture in? National have to get on board with this as well. We have had the blue-Green forum this weekend. The first speech that I saw from Simon Bridges made no mention of this report. The productivity commission says unless you actually put some financial incentives in there for the agricultural sector they will not come involuntarily. My miss was Shane Jones. His reference to the Australian system as somehow politicising the political system at the top level as somehow a good thing. We see sackings over the at the end of government. We appreciate your time. MARAE IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT TONIGHT. YOU CAN WATCH IT ON DEMAND TOO. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9.