MORENA, GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M CORIN DANN. TODAY WE LOOK AT A CAMPAIGN TO GIVE TRANSGENDER KIWIS EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW. WHY SOME WOMEN SAY IT'S THEIR RIGHTS THAT'LL BE COMPROMISED AS A RESULT. WE CAN'T DO THAT ONCE THE DEFINITION OF WHAT A WOMAN IS IS FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED. THEY DON'T NEED TO BE ASKING HER ABOUT WHETHER SHE HAS HAD SURGERY. I'M SURE THEY DON'T CHECK EVERY OTHER. THEN WORLD-RENOWNED RESEARCHER AND PAEDIATRICIAN SIR PETER GLUCKMAN. HE FINISHED UP THIS WEEK AS THE CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISOR HE FINISHED UP THIS WEEK AS THE CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISOR TO THE PRIME MINISTER. HOW DOES EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY WIN IN A 'POST TRUTH ALTERNATIVE FACTS' WORLD? AND AUSTRALIA THIS WEEK PASSED A LAW TO BAN FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN POLITICS AND ENFORCE TOUGHER PENALTIES ON SPYING. THE REFORMS COME AFTER POLITICAL DONATION SCANDALS INVOLVING PEOPLE WITH LINKS TO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. I ASKED PETER JENNINGS FROM THE AUSTRALIAN STRATEGIC POLICY INSTITUTE ` SHOULD NEW ZEALAND FOLLOW SUIT? LOTS OF VARYING ISSUES TO DISCUSS WITH TODAY'S PANEL ` DR BRYCE EDWARDS, DR WAYNE MAPP AND LAURA O'CONNELL RAPIRA. CAPTIONS BY GLENNA CASALME AND ALEX WALKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2018 LET'S START OFF WITH QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS FROM THE WEEK. QUESTIONS ` BOY! HOW TIMELY IS IT FOR THE COALITION GOVERNMENT THAT'S ITS MULTIBILLION DOLLAR FAMILIES PACKAGE KICKS IN TODAY, JULY 1? ANSWER ` IT'S HUGE! THE FACT IS THIS CASH INJECTION COMES JUST AS OUR ECONOMY WAS STARTING TO LOSE STEAM. THE PACKAGE SHOULD MEAN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KIWIS HAVE $75 MORE TO SPEND EACH WEEK. MIND YOU, IF YOU'RE IN AUCKLAND, YOU ALSO JUST GOT WHACKED WITH A NEW PETROL TAX TODAY. QUESTION ` WHEN DOES HOUSING MINISTER PHIL TWYFORD'S LACK OF POLITICAL JUDGEMENT START TO BECOME A SERIOUS LIABILITY? ANSWER ` PRETTY SOON, AT THE RATE HE'S GOING. I MEAN, YOU WOULD THINK LOSING YOUR CAA JOB FOR PHONE CALL ON A PLANE MIGHT BE A WAKE UP CALL, BUT, NO, APPARENTLY NOT. MIGHT BE A WAKE-UP CALL, BUT, NO, APPARENTLY NOT. HE ALSO NEEDS A SERIOUS BOLLOCKING FROM PARLIAMENT'S SPEAKER FOR WRITING SNARKY, CONTEMPTUOUS AND, FRANKLY, NAFF ANSWERS TO JUDITH COLLINS' WRITTEN QUESTIONS. QUESTION - HAS THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION BACKING THE USE OF FLUORIDATION IN TARANAKI PUT END TO THE DEBATE ABOUT THE USE OF CHEMICALS IN OUR WATER? ANSWER ` YEAH, RIGHT. ANTI-FLUORIDE CAMPAIGNERS HAVE RESPONDED, SAYING IT'S ACTUALLY A VICTORY OF SORTS FOR THEM AS THE COURT AGREED THERE WAS CONFLICTING SCIENCE. SIR PETER GLUCKMAN, HELP. QUESTION ` WILL WINSTON PETER'S 20-MINUTE CHIT-CHAT WITH U.S SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO DELIVER THE BREAKTHROUGH OUR EXPORTERS WANT ON U.S STEEL TARIFFS? ANSWER ` DOUBT IT. WE JUST DON'T SEEM TO BE HIGH ENOUGH ON TRUMP'S RADAR, WHICH BEGS THE NEXT QUESTION ` WHEN DO WE FORGET BACK CHANNELS, AS WINSTON WANTS, AND START KICKING UP A FUSS? BUT WE START TODAY WITH THE STORY OF WELLINGTONIAN PENELOPY MANSELL. GYM ABOUT BUYING A MEMBERSHIP. THE GYM DECLINED IT, AS IT DIDN'T CONSIDER HER TO BE A WOMAN. PENELOPY IS TRANSGENDER, AND THIS CASE ` THE TRANS COMMUNITY SAYS ` HIGHLIGHTS HOW THE LAW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED TO ADDRESS TRANS RIGHTS SPECIFICALLY. THEY HAVE THEIR HOPES SET ON A BILL GOING THROUGH PARLIAMENT THAT WILL ENABLE TRANS PEOPLE TO SELF-IDENTIFY THEIR GENDER. HERE'S WHENA OWEN AND AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE WOMAN WHO FOUND HERSELF AT THE CENTRE OF TRANS POLITICS. SHE JUST REMAINED SILENT FOR ABOUT A MINUTE, AND THEN SAID, 'I'M SORRY, DEAR, I'M GONNA HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION ` 'ARE YOU TRANSGENDERED?' (RELAXED MUSIC) BUT WELLINGTONIAN PENNY MANSELL'S ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION WASN'T ENOUGH TO GRANT HER ENTRY INTO THIS WOMEN'S-ONLY GYM. PENNY WAS AFTER A WINZ QUOTE AT REVIVE FITNESS, AND THE GYM HAPPENED TO BE THE CLOSEST TO WHERE SHE WAS LIVING. SHE STATED THAT IT WAS THE GYM'S POLICY NOT TO LET ANY TRANSGENDERED PERSON INTO THE GYM UNTIL THEY'VE HAD A MEDICALLY CERTIFIED... SEXUAL REASSIGNMENT SURGERY. I INFORMED HER THAT A) IT'S NOT POSSIBLY IN NEW ZEALAND, I INFORMED HER THAT A) IT'S NOT POSSIBLE IN NEW ZEALAND, B) IT'S... A 40- TO 50-YEAR WAITLIST. ABSOLUTELY. IT WAS OUT OF LINE TO ASK THAT QUESTION. FELIX DESMARAIS WRITES ON LOCAL TRANS ISSUES. THEY DIDN'T NEED TO BE ASKING HER ABOUT WHETHER SHE'S HAD SURGERY. I'M SURE THEY DON'T CHECK EVERY OTHER WOMAN'S,... YOU KNOW, UNDERPANTS SITUATION. PENNY SHOWED THE STAFF HER BIRTH CERTIFICATE, WHICH STATES SHE IS FEMALE. CERTIFICATES ARE ONLY CHANGED IF THE PERSON HAS UNDERGONE SURGERY OR, IN PENNY'S CASE, MEDICAL OR HORMONAL TREATMENT. BUT THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. WHAT I GOT OUT OF IT WAS... FIRST OF ALL, IT SHED LIGHT ON THE ISSUE THAT... THAT THERE'S NO SUPPORT OUT THERE FOR SMALL BUSINESSES TO KNOW WHAT'S THE BEST THING TO DO HERE. THE TRANS COMMUNITY INSISTS IF SOMEONE JUST SAYS THEY'RE A CERTAIN GENDER, THEY SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS SUCH. A WEEK AFTER THE INCIDENT, THE GYM APOLOGISED TO PENNY. THEY OBVIOUSLY MADE A MISTAKE. IT'S PRETTY HARD TO BLAME THEM IN A CONTEXT WHERE THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T EVEN TAKING ANY LEADERSHIP ON TRANS DISCRIMINATION THEMSELVES. I THINK OUR TRANS COMMUNITY HAVE ALWAYS HAD A POINT IN TERMS OF SPECIFIC RECOGNITION. GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER EXPRESSION IS NOT IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT, AND THAT'S BASED ON A CROWN LAW OPINION THAT WAS RECEIVED THAT SAID THAT GENDER IDENTITY IS ACTUALLY INCLUDED UNDER SEX. (RELAXED MUSIC) WELL, REVIVE FITNESS TOLD US THEY COULDN'T APPEAR ON Q+A WHILE THEY'RE REVIEWING THEIR POLICY AND WORKING WITH THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION. BUT THEY DID TELL US THAT STAFF HAVE BEEN VERY STRESSED OVER THIS ISSUE AND HAVE BEEN CONFRONTED AGGRESSIVELY ONLINE AND IN PERSON. INNOCENT STAFF MEMBERS HAVE BEEN TARGETED WITH ABUSE. SOMEONE'S CAR, I BELIEVE, WAS CRIMINALLY DAMAGED AT HER HOME RESIDENCE. VERY NASTY, HORRIBLE... EXTREME PEOPLE. AND OVER THE FOLLOWING WEEK, I LEARNT THAT... THERE'S DIFFERING GROUPS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE... OF THE ARGUMENT. THAT OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT HAS RESULTED IN CLASHES IN BRITAIN RECENTLY. FEMINIST GROUPS KEEN TO PROTECT WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE A GROWING FACTION THERE. THE ICONIC FEMINIST GERMAINE GREER HAS BEEN OUTSPOKEN ABOUT TRANS RIGHTS AND SUBSEQUENTLY LOST MUCH OF HER PLATFORM. I'M NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCEDURE. WHAT I'M SAYING IS IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM A WOMAN. THE HEAT AROUND TRANS RIGHTS IN BRITAIN IS BECAUSE OF THE CONTROVERSIAL GENDER RECOGNITION BILL, WHICH WOULD ALLOW ANYONE TO SELF-DECLARE THEIR IDENTITY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. THE RIGHT OF WOMEN AND GIRLS ARE UNDER A LARGE-SCALE, WHOLESALE ATTACK FROM THE TRANS RIGHTS MOVEMENT. THAT'S THE UK AND THEIR PROPOSED LEGISLATION. WHAT ABOUT US? WELL, WE'RE ALMOST THERE WHEN IT COMES TO GENDER SELF-DECLARATION. AN AMENDMENT TO THE BIRTHS, DEATHS AND MARRIAGES ACT AIMS TO ENSHRINE THAT, AND IT'S ALMOST AT ITS SECOND READING. THE UK WANT TO MOVE WHERE WE ARE MOVING TO, WHICH IS ABOUT PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO SELF-IDENTIFY. BUT HAVE WE ATTRACTED THAT SORT OF OPPOSITION? AND WHAT I'M AWARE OF, THROUGH OUR PROCESS TO A LIMITED DEGREE, BUT OVER IN THE UK IS THAT WOMEN'S GROUPS AND SOME WOMEN ACTUALLY HAVE AN ISSUE ABOUT TRANS WOMEN BEING WOMEN. THERE'S A NAME FOR THOSE FEMINIST GROUPS. WHAT'S A TERF, BY THE WAY? A TRANS-EXCLUSIONARY RADICAL FEMINIST. DO WE HAVE SOME OF THOSE? OF COURSE WE DO. HAVE YOU BEEN CALLED ONE? I GET CALLED A TERF ALL THE TIME. RENEE GERLICH SAYS EXPRESSING HER OPINIONS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTINUE TO LIVE AND WORK IN WELLINGTON CITY. ALMOST OVERWHELMING. I CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF ALL THE NAMES I'VE BEEN CALLED AND ALL THE DICTATORS, FAMOUS DICTATORS I'VE BEEN COMPARED TO. RENEE SAYS AT THE MOMENT THERE'S HEAT AROUND THE BIRTHS, DEATHS AND MARRIAGES AMENDMENT GOING THROUGH THE SELECT COMMITTEE. IS A SIGNIFICANT SOCIAL SHIFT. I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S A PROFOUND CHANGE. I KNOW SOME PEOPLE WON'T LIKE IT, BUT THAT'S THEIR OWN PREJUDICE. THIS LEGISLATION THAT THEY'RE PUSHING COMPLETELY UNDERMINES A LOT OF THE WORK THAT THE SUFFRAGETTES DID. THEY FOUGHT FOR THE WOMEN'S VOTE BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GIVE WOMEN A WAY OF MAKING POLITICAL DEMANDS THAT PERTAIN TO OUR SEX. WE CAN'T DO THAT ONCE THE DEFINITION OF WHAT A WOMAN IS HAS FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED. WOMEN'S HEALTH AND EQUAL PAY STATISTICS MAY BE DISTORTED, RENEE CLAIMS. SHE WANTS ALL NEW ZEALAND WOMEN CONSULTED BEFORE THE LAW CHANGES. (RELAXED MUSIC) MEANWHILE, PENNY TELLS US SHE'S HOPING FOR SOME GOOD NEWS FROM THE GYM. AND HER POLITICAL ADVOCATE HOPES AN IMMINENT LAW CHANGE WILL PREVENT THIS HAPPENING AGAIN. A WOMEN; TREAT HER LIKE A WOMAN. WHENA OWEN REPORTING THERE. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR BRYCE EDWARDS FROM VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, FORMER NATIONAL MINISTER DR WAYNE MAPP AND ACTION STATION DIRECTOR LAURA O'CONNELL RAPIRA. WE WILL TRY AND HAVE A CONSIDERED DEBATE. THIS IS A VERY COMPLICATED ETHICAL AREA. What is your first impressions? What do you think? What I'm hearing is that is it fair that rights that have been long fought for is it at risk question? My understanding is that it is not at risk here. This about the transistor. There's a lot of fear going on, and if we react out of fear, We will be responding poorly. Entrance rights are human rights. What is the defining line? We put more trust in people to define their own gender. This is just like the argument about how Maori you are. I think we are heading in the right direction, but if we don't bring people along in this journey, we will risk dividing society more. Is there danger here that some sections of the community just don't want to have this debate? I'm very much live and let live in this. I trust Louisa Wall. She has good judgment on them and she has expressed it today. The world is changing. There is a need to include this. The way New Zealanders live our lives, we basically let people choose their own identity and their own selves and the rest of us respect that. I was contacted by someone from the trans-community yesterday. They have had reassignment surgery and they tend to take the view that there is some sympathy for the gym. So there is division amongst them as well. Traditionally, we would think of this as a left right fight. Where's this is very much amongst the liberals Ed amongst gender reformers. Within feminism, When we start having disputes about that, you have radical feminists labeled Terf who opposes idea that everyone should be able to self categorize, this debate is really just a whole new escalation we are seeing a big rise in gender politics. So that's going to keep coming up as new boundaries are being found. Are we mature enough as a country to have this debate? I think we are, but not in some of the platforms where we choose to have these conversations like Twitter and Facebook. This platforms not bring out our most compassionate Selves. This should happen in deliberate meetings outside of online spaces. I recognize that is not exactly a luxury available to a lot of people who are busy and trying to pay bills and work. But if we try to engage in a deep way in conversations that need to happen` because there is a lot to understand here. People will be scared. But it is a sensitive topic. But the part people should ease off about is about using the right or wrong terms. I was disappointed with Simon bridges' controversy about trans-fluid issues. I don't think he was being particularly nasty. We shouldn't be piling on people when they say the wrong thing. I think that's easy to say if you're not affected by this. Trans people are some of the most marginalized people in society. If they are saying one of the most powerful people in the country is able to speak badly about them, it should be allowed. I think both outcome and intention are important at the end of the day. I think it drives the debate underground if you keep telling people off. I think this is more about lifting all sides of the story. If you don't have a person on radio Hauraki to counter... I remember the huge debates about sexual law reform. We have moved decades from them. We don't have intense debates like we see in the United States. Fundamentally we have more respect and more understanding. We are presenting ourselves as a bit of a model on these things. Is that changing in a polarized word? In their little Internet world, is there more danger in polarization? I obviously don't go on to those particular sites. But I see a lot of hostility on the Internet. There is a lot of hostility. Maybe that's the culture of New Zealand. They won't abuse you in public. We don't do it like the United States. The social media spaces becoming the new public space. Does it have an effect on people's ability to speak out. I think that's a bit of distraction. The main thing is that this is the government's role to sort out. You can get that here. Labourers actually scared of this debate. There should be pressure on them. Jacinda is trying to bury this. They don't want to be labeled as such. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. UP NEXT ` PUBLIC OPINION IS DIVIDED ON GENETIC MODIFICATION. BUT ARE WE MISSING OUT BY NOT GOING THERE? I'LL ASK OUTGOING CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISOR SIR PETER GLUCKMAN NEXT. WELCOME BACK AND GOOD MORNING TO SIR PETER GLUCKMAN, WHO FINISHED UP AS THE PRIME MINISTER'S CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISER AFTER NINE YEARS, AND THE FIRST SCIENTIST TO TAKE THIS ROLE. Let's start with the report on math testing. It has changed so much. You mentioned that you had raised some concerns with the previous government. They had rated with me. The Prime Minister's office asked me if it was worth looking at it. This is probably in 2015 or 2016, they said they understand that the ministry is looking at it from standards New Zealand. I only have an office of two people and myself. In hindsight, you would've preferred to look at it again? We never had any correspondence with anybody about it. Third wasn't a case of you pushing them and them not responding? No. They didn't realize it. You raised concerns about alcohol and adolescents and boot camps. The government didn't take your advice. Was it frustrating? Yes and no. Everyone who advises from science that is as part of a democratic process. What we need to do is provide the evidence. Ultimately, and democracy, the values-based decision-making of public opinion of political contract, I guess, ultimately must take the evidence into account. Doesn't mean they have to follow it. There is two kinds of things we try to do. The first thing is to try and explain complex systems. Most of the things that the government needs help with our remarkably complex. Agriculture, climate. We try and explain that to the public and the policymaker and the politician. Complexity always means more options. There is never a simple magic bullet. And then we can explain the implications of the options. What policymaking is about making choices that influence people everyday. The evidence you've looked at shows that the present system is clearly not working. But when it comes to the politics of this, there are certain political parties which are just not interested. The whole question how do we have complex conversations over difficult matters in a constructive and collegial manner. This is a matter where people clearly come to it with different personal perspectives. We have put the evidence on the table, and I would hope that over time letter will hopefully promote a conversation where people look at the evidence across all the political parties and the public and perhaps reflect that we have gone too far into the retribution model of justice and not enough into the restorative rehabilitative and effectively prevented form of justice which countries like Germany and Finland have done. The evidence there is that we could have a conversation. And if people just reflect and more of those structures, we can do that. What do we do with politicians who might use this as a opportunity to get more votes? Democracy is flawed. But what we can do is provide evidence that will help government and society make better decisions. I would not want to not live in a democracy. Scientific evidence has a different position. It is a privilege position providing information that we know, what we don't know, so that society as a whole can make better decisions. I would not be arrogant enough to argue that just because the science is this, therefore it must automatically be that the government will do that. There are philosophical and ideological and physical and diplomatic issues to be put into the picture. Genetic modification now. We go back 20 years, there was a massive public debate and a lot of concern about the impact on the food chain. Has the science been settled? Is there any risk from genetic modification in our food supply? Science will say what it is always said, there is no ecological or health concerns with the use of advanced genetic technologies. It doesn't naturally mean that it's going to be accepted. What we need is a conversation that is more constructive and less polarizing than in the past. We are facing issues of biosecurity and predators and the desire to be predator free and that our farming system needs to change because of the environmental impact in the greenhouse gas emissions and and water quality issues. We are fundamentally and agriculturally based economy. The science is secure but it can never be absolute. The uncertainty here is minimal to nil. Is there a risk in your view to New Zealand if we do not embrace GMO technology for things such asproduction and pest eradication? My judgment is that over the 20 years, genetic technology will be increasingly used around the world. If we are to have a biological economy, we are needing a conversation about it. What about science denial? There is a fair amount of distress for scientists. Is that fair? I think over the last nine years the public has become more engaged. The public scientists we have out there, the cluster of people who have been far more prominent in the media particularly women scientists. I think that our surveys show that trusts in scientists is pretty high in New Zealand, as in countries around the world. I think where science communicators move is to realize that it's not just about pushing fax to people. It is about explaining to people. It has to be a participatory science program which is what children are being exposed to now. I think you raise the issue about the digitization of the Internet. What about the fluoridation debate? People say it's a victory. People are coming in with very fundamental worldviews. People who say that they will not change their views whatever the science is. I can present all the evidence that fluoride is safe, but people who want to present that it is not safe will go to extreme situations to find data from contexts that are totally inappropriate to New Zealand to show that it is not safe. There is always a point at which you cannot deal with that except through a democratic process to show the weight of the evidence. It has been subject to extensive analysis and at the end of the day, the democratic process has to decide whether you use that knowledge or not. I think it is tragic that we cannot get beyond that, whether people have this deep worldview and will object. Thank you very much for your time. AUSTRALIA HAS PASSED TOUGH NEW SECURITY LAWS, SAYING FOREIGN AGENTS ARE INCREASINGLY INTERFERING IN THE COUNTRY'S POLITICS. THERE'LL BE NEW PENALTIES FOR SPYING, NEW ESPIONAGE OFFENCES, ALL AFTER A NUMBER OF DONATION SCANDALS INVOLVING PEOPLE LINKED TO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. MY NEXT GUEST, AN AUSTRALIAN EXPERT IN NATIONAL SECURITY, SAYS NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO WAKE UP. WELCOME BACK. AUSTRALIA HAS PASSED NEW LAWS TO GET TOUGH ON SPYING AND FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN THEIR POLITICAL SYSTEM. IT COMES AFTER A NUMBER OF POLITICAL DONATION SCANDALS INVOLVING INDIVIDUALS LINKED TO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. THESE KINDS OF CONCERNS HAVE BEEN RAISED HERE. DR ANNE MARIE BRADY FROM CANTERBURY UNIVERSITY BELIEVES THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS ACTIVELY SEEKING INFLUENCE IN NEW ZEALAND. SHE SPOKE ABOUT THAT ON Q+A AT THE END OF LAST YEAR. PETER JENNINGS IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AUSTRALIAN STRATEGIC POLICY INSTITUTE IN CANBERRA. I SPOKE TO HIM YESTERDAY AND ASKED IF THIS IS A PUSHBACK FROM AUSTRALIA AGAINST THE GROWING CHINESE INFLUENCE. IT CERTAINLY HAS BEEN READ THAT WAY, AND WHILE OUR GOVERNMENT IS AT PAINS TO SAY THAT OF COURSE THIS APPLIES TO ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT OR ANY FOREIGN ENTITY ATTEMPTING TO SHAPE AUSTRALIAN POLITICS, I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT CHINA IS FRONT AND CENTRE THE CURRENT PROBLEM` AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING? ...AND WE'VE SEEN THAT` WHAT ARE THEY ACTUALLY DOING? WELL, WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN A NUMBER OF WAYS. ONE HAS BEEN VERY SUBSTANTIAL FINANCIAL DONATIONS TO THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES. I'M TALKING ABOUT IN THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, INDEED IN AGGREGATE, IN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. I THINK WE ARE ALSO SEEING ATTEMPTS TO SHAPE HOW MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT MAY THINK AND TALK ABOUT PARTICULAR ISSUES WHICH ARE OF INTEREST TO BEIJING. SO WE HAD PROBABLY A NOTORIOUS CASE THIS YEAR WITH THE NEW SOUTH WALES LABOUR MP SAM DASTYARI, WHO ON THE ONE HAND WAS ATTEMPTING TO NEGOTIATE MAJOR DONATIONS FROM CHINESE BUSINESSMEN INTO THE LABOUR PARTY, AND AT THE SAME TIME WAS PREPARED TO HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE HE SPOKE, ESSENTIALLY, USING THE TALKING POINTS ON BEIJING'S POSITION ON THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. NOW, ALL OF THAT ULTIMATELY LED TO DASTYARI'S RESIGNATION FROM THE AUSTRALIAN PARLIAMENT. BUT I THINK, MORE BROADLY, THE CONCERN IS THAT HIS WAS NOT AN ISOLATED EXAMPLE. AND REALLY THIS LEGISLATION ATTEMPTS TO MAKE MORE OPEN SOMETHING WHICH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT HAS BEEN HAPPENING COVERTLY IN AUSTRALIAN POLITICS, BOTH AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND IN OUR STATE GOVERNMENTS AS WELL. RIGHT. NOW, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NEW ZEALAND IS ALSO VULNERABLE TO THIS POLITICAL INFLUENCE FROM THE LIKES OF CHINA, AND SHOULD WE ALSO BE TIGHTENING OUR LAWS? YES, I THINK NEW ZEALAND IS FACING SIMILAR PRESSURES, AND IT IS PROBABLY WORTH SAYING THAT IN FACT IT'S NOT JUST AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND. I AM AWARE OF VERY SIMILAR PATTERNS OF ACTIVITY TAKING PLACE IN CANADA, IN THE UK AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. AND REALLY, IT REFLECTS, I THINK, A GLOBAL ATTEMPT ON THE PART OF BEIJING TO WANT TO TRY TO... OVERTLY AND COVERTLY PROMOTE ITS POLITICAL INTERESTS AROUND THE WORLD. SO NEW ZEALAND CAN'T ASSUME THAT IT'S ISOLATED FROM THIS. IN FACT, NEW ZEALAND SHOULD ASSUME THAT THESE PRESSURES ARE IN YOUR POLITICAL SYSTEM TOO. HOW YOUR GOVERNMENT DEALS WITH IT, OF COURSE, THAT'S A MATTER FOR NEW ZEALAND AND NEW ZEALANDERS. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT WOULD BE SMART IF THE NEW ZEALAND POLITICAL SYSTEM AND THE AUSTRALIAN POLITICAL SYSTEM TRIED TO AT LEAST ALIGN THEIR APPROACHES TO DEALING WITH FOREIGN INTERFERENCE, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING THAT WE CAN DO TO GIVE CONFIDENCE TO HOW WE MANAGE THE BILATERAL AUSTRALIA-NEW ZEALAND RELATIONSHIP. AND DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES... WOULD THERE BE CONSEQUENCES IF NEW ZEALAND DIDN'T TOUGHEN ITS RULES IN TERMS OF THE AUSTRALIA- NEW ZEALAND RELATIONSHIP? I THINK THERE'S A RISK OF THAT. YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND HAVE BEEN IN SOME RESPECTS DRIFTING APART IN TERMS OF HOW THE TWO COUNTRIES THINK ABOUT STRATEGIC ISSUES. THAT'S APPROPRIATE. WE EACH HAVE DIFFERENT STRATEGIC GEOGRAPHIES. WE EACH HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD; I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. BUT IT IS A CRITICAL BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP FOR BOTH OF US. AND IN THAT SENSE, I THINK THE MORE OPEN WE CAN BE ABOUT HOW WE DEAL WITH THREATS TO OUR SOCIETIES, AND THE MORE CONFIDENT WE CAN BE THAT WE ARE EACH DEALING WITH THESE THREATS IN SENSIBLE AND APPROPRIATE WAYS, THAT'S GOOD FOR CANBERRA-WELLINGTON RELATIONS. THERE ARE THOSE, OF COURSE, WHO PUSH BACK. SIR DON MCKINNON, WHO IS THE CHAIR... HE'S INVOLVED WITH THE CHINA COUNCIL HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, BUT OF COURSE, AN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMAT, OR HAS BEEN ` HE WOULD ARGUE THAT WE HAVE SPY AGENCIES HERE; WE HAVE AUTHORITIES HERE THAT WOULD DEAL WITH ANYTHING THAT WAS UNTOWARD, THAT IT IS IN OUR INTERESTS TO BE GETTING` TO UNDERSTAND CHINA BETTER, TO BE CLOSER WITH CHINA, BECAUSE IT HAS HELPED US BOTH ECONOMICALLY AND CULTURALLY. YES, IT IS IN OUR INTERESTS TO BE CLOSE WITH CHINA AS WELL, BUT I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY NOT IN AUSTRALIA'S INTERESTS OR NEW ZEALAND'S INTERESTS TO BE NAIVE ABOUT CHINA. AND INCREASINGLY, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE DOWNSIDES AS WELL AS UPSIDES TO A RELATIONSHIP WITH A MASSIVE POWER, WHICH IS INCREASINGLY BECOMING A DICTATORIAL POLITICAL SYSTEM, WHICH IS INCREASINGLY BECOMING A DICTATORIAL POLITICAL SYSTEM, SORT OF, IN FACT, REVERTING BACK TO THE CHINA THAT WE THOUGHT WAS SORT OF SLOWLY DISAPPEARING BECAUSE OF ITS ECONOMIC GROWTH. THE OTHER POINT I'D MAKE ABOUT THAT COMMENT FROM MR MCKINNON IS SIMPLY TO SAY ` IT'S ONE THING FOR OFFICIALS TO FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THEY'RE APPROPRIATELY DEALING WITH THE SYSTEM, BUT I THINK IN BOTH OUR COUNTRIES, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT GOVERNMENTS TAKE THEIR PUBLIC ALONG WITH THEM, AND THAT MEANS THAT THERE'S A NEED FOR GOVERNMENTS TO EXPLAIN WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO DEAL WITH THESE SORTS OF CHALLENGES AND TO MAKE SURE THAT COMMUNITIES UNDERSTAND AND SUPPORT THOSE EXPLANATIONS. I DON'T SEE SO MUCH OF THAT. SORRY TO INTERRUPT AGAIN. WHAT CHINA IS DOING ` IS IT ANY MORE HAN JUST SOFT POWER, IN THE SENSE THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MILITARY ACTION FROM THEM. I MEAN, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND WHAT AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND WOULD DO IN THE PACIFIC? I THINK THERE'S A SPECTRUM OF THINGS WHICH ARE HAPPENING. SOME OF IT IS OPEN ` SOFT POWER, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT; SOME OF IT IS GOOD OLD-FASHIONED COVERT ESPIONAGE. AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, CHINA IS VERY ACTIVE ON THAT FRONT IN` BUT WE ARE GUILTY OF THAT TOO, RIGHT? ...IN BOTH OUR COUNTRIES. AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND SPY. SURE, BUT THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE DON'T DO. WE'RE NOT ENGAGED IN WHOLESALE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT BY MEANS OF CYBER HACKING. THAT'S A VERY MAJOR FEATURE OF CHINESE ACTIVITY ` NOT JUST IN AUSTRALIA BUT IN THE UNITED STATES AND ALL AROUND THE WORLD. I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN HOW OUR COUNTRIES USE THEIR ESPIONAGE ACTIVITIES. IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT WE DON'T DO THAT. THAT IS CERTAINLY TRUE. BUT WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL THAT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY BEING SUCCESSFULLY USED AGAINST US. I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE THING TO FOCUS ON. JUST ONE LAST QUESTION ` HAS THERE BEEN A BACKLASH IN AUSTRALIA FROM CHINA? AND IF SO, WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT? I MEAN, ARE YOU SEEING ANY DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS BEING STRAINED? THERE HAS CERTAINLY BEEN, I THINK, IN THE CHINESE MEDIA, THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE GLOBAL TIMES, FOR EXAMPLE, EDITORIALISING AGAINST AUSTRALIA. AND OF COURSE, THE CHINESE EMBASSY HERE HAS VERY STRIDENTLY DENIED THAT THEY ARE ENGAGING IN ANY COVERT ACTIVITIES WHICH WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE. I GUESS YOU'D HAVE TO SAY, 'WELL, OF COURSE THEY'D SAY THAT.' BROADLY, THOUGH, THE RELATIONSHIP GOES ON. WE CONTINUE TO TRADE. CHINESE TOURISTS ARE AMONGST THE LARGEST GROUP OF TOURISTS VISITING THE COUNTRY. THERE ARE VERY LARGE NUMBERS OF CHINESE STUDENTS AT AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITIES. AND REALLY WHAT THAT POINTS TO IS THAT IT'S IN CHINA'S INTERESTS AS MUCH AS OUR OWN TO KEEP A STEADY RELATIONSHIP. I THINK WHAT THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT HAS SIMPLY DONE IS SAY TO CHINA, 'WELL, THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER,' AS FAR AS COVERT INFLUENCING ATTEMPTS ON OUR POLITICAL PROCESSES GO. AND CHINA HAS NOT PUBLICLY WELCOMED THAT AUSTRALIAN VIEW, BUT I THINK THEY MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S THE ONLY APPROPRIATE THING FOR AN AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT TO DO. We will talk about this with our panel. AND IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT KIDS SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME ON VIDEO GAMES, YOU'LL WANT TO CATCH MY PODCAST WITH YOUNG GAMES DEVELOPER CHRIS CULLEN. HE'S TURNING HIS PASSION FOR PLAYING INTO A CAREER IN ONE OF THE FASTEST-GROWING CREATIVE INDUSTRIES RIGHT NOW. THE AMOUNT OF REACH THAT THERE IS NOW FOR GAMES IS PERHAPS EVEN MORE THAN MOVIES. Welcome back. Let's bring in a panel on this issueof Chinese influence in the Pacific. Australia seems to be going quite hard. Is it justified? I don't think so, we don't see the evidence, compelling evidence to say that this is a problem, nor evidence that what Australia is coming up with is going to solve the problem that may be existing. This looks like another chapter in Australia's evolution into being a harder state, Draconian state. It is having a chilling effect on a lot ofpolitical debate and discussion. At means that people cannot freely participate and have rallies. There is nothing wrong having a rally about Israel or Palestine. People should be allowed to do this and this will clampdown on that and will chill that debate. They understand New Zealanders not like that. They understand that our political donations law is very tight. There are lots of wealthy Chinese people in New Zealand who donate to both parties and it is fully disclosed and everyone knows that. It doesn't mean that every Chinese person here istrying to subvert politics. That is the point I'm trying to make. There are Chinese New Zealand citizens with an interest in New Zealand. We do not see the sorts of things that have happened in Australia there talking points and so forth. I have not seen that. There is simply no cause whatsoever for New Zealand to have such laws. Interesting point about the United Statesand Australia talking about the Indo Pacific, we are sticking with Asia-Pacific. That is not a subtle difference. The Indo Pacific has an implication of containment. Asia-Pacific has an application of partnership. Winston Peters speech on Friday ` we are going with Asia-Pacific. That is because we view these things differently, and so we should. New Zealand has been amongst the Western world and relationships with China, and that has been good for us. We have been reasonably well aware of what they are doing. We have intelligence agencies that do deal with certain things. Frankly, the concerns that Mr Jennings raised at least insofar as New Zealand, I would trust him. There are people here Laura who say that we are naive. I definitely think we need a discussion about the influence of entities on our political system. But I think that should not just be foreign governments. We should also talk about multinational corporations and the influence that they have on our legislation, such as the TPP. Overwrought concern. This is happening in a context where there is rising xenophobia happening all over the world. Take the nationality out of it? Also on the donations front, we do have rigourous systems, but in New Zealand we could have a complete overhaul. I am a fan of the idea where you democratise donations and everyone gets $20 and you can give to political parties depending on who you choose. There is influence of money on political systems here in New Zealand and we need to have a talk about that. You are absolutely right, and Anne-Marie Brady did bring up important points in the debate. We still not have had that debate. We need to look at those issues particularly of Mps and national parties, Mps that are from China and have links to the Chinese government, alleged to be Chinese spies. National and labour do not want to have that debate. There is no actual evidence for that, and those concerns are overwrought. They might be, but let's have a debate about. We are not going down the Australian path and having that xenophobia. We won't go down that Australian path, because we don't have this overwrought debate that Australia has had. You have to have a whole lot of other things happen before you end up in Australia's situation. We are not in that space and we will not get into that space. I want to bring in the issue with Sir Peter Gluckman. He has made it clear that the time has come for a debate on genetic engineering. Putting aside whether it is to do with your values or economically. According to our chief science adviser, is that time to open the doors here? It has been a long time since we had that debate. I don't think the first part of debates is to go to genetically modified foods. There are a whole lot of other things like pine trees, all sorts of other parts. Where you can have a sensible and reasoned debate. It is time to re-examine that whole question, because as Sir Peter says The sciences trusted. There are councils that have decided to be GE free. They won't buy into that. I think that is totally valid. I don't think we have had a robust discussion about GMO's in our society for a long time. And not one whether a scope for change. If we have a discussion, it needs to follow on with change. Do you think there is any political will to go there? I think the last government would have been sympathetic but The current government may looked at it and going too hard. I think they are probably having a reflection on that now because GE has such potential to help us with climate change and pests and all sorts of things. It could be liberating for our species. That would be difficult for the Greens. But you have to start with the debate. You don't get to the point of changing rules and having commissions and so forth unless you have had a pre-existing debate. It is probable time we start having a debate. The chief adviser to the prime minister could be part and parcel. What do you think of the role of the chief science adviser? We have had it for nine years. Has it improved our understanding of science? We have heard of examples where his advice was not followed. The intersection with politics is difficult. Everyone thinks science is great and it is great having a new science adviser. I'm not really convinced that it has worked with the whole method example ` *meth example, he raised this with the government and got pushed back and then he gave up. It was an satisfactory outcome. * unsatisfactory outcome. He has made a bit of a difference. He has lifted the tone of the debate. He is quite right in saying science is only a factor in public debates. Frankly, we need to do more. New Zealand is seriously undercooked, as I mentioned a few months ago in the whole area of innovation. I will come back to the panel later. MY PODCAST THIS WEEK FEATURES VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER CHRIS CULLEN, WHO, ALONG WITH THREE DESIGN SCHOOL MATES, CREATED A GAME FOR HIS FINAL PROJECT. TWO YEARS LATER, SKY NOON HAS BEEN LAUNCHED WITH A US-BASED PUBLISHER, AND IT'S GETTING SOME RAVE REVIEWS. IT'S A FIRST-PERSON SHOOTING GAME WITH A WESTERN THEME, AND YOU CAN FIND IT ON 'STEAM', AN ONLINE PLATFORM FOR NEW GAMES THAT ATTRACTS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PLAYERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD. AND ONE FEATURE THAT MIGHT PLACATE PARENTS OF YOUNGER KIDS ` THERE'S SHOOTING, BUT WITHOUT THE BLOOD AND GUTS; YOU JUST PUSH YOUR OPPOSING PLAYERS OFF THE FLOATING FRONTIER. NOW, TO THE UNINITIATED, VIDEO GAMES LIKE THIS ARE SIMPLY A FUN DIVERSION FOR KIDS. BUT THERE'S GOOD REASON TO TAKE THIS CREATIVE INDUSTRY MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY. LAST YEAR, GAMING EARNED THIS COUNTRY AROUND $100M; GLOBALLY THE INDUSTRY IS WORTH AROUND US$90B. THE DEVELOPERS OF SKY NOON NOW GO BY THE NAME OF LUNAR ROOSTER, AND I CAUGHT UP WITH CHRIS CULLEN FOR THIS WEEK'S BUSINESS PODCAST. BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF REACH THAT THERE IS NOW FOR GAMES IS PERHAPS EVEN MORE THAN MOVIES, BECAUSE GAMES CAN BE PLAYED BY ALL AGES, AND THEY ARE PLAYED CONSTANTLY. SO IT'S NOT JUST A ONE-TIME THING; IT'S THIS CONSTANT CULTURE THAT'S BEING CREATED. AND DO YOU THINK THE ATTITUDES ARE STARTING TO CHANGE? I THINK PROBABLY SOME GENERATIONS WOULD BE A BIT DISMISSIVE OF GAMING ARE THOSE ATTITUDES CHANGING? IT'S BECOMING MORE OF A WAY OF LIFE, OR DO YOU STILL SEE SOME BARRIERS AND STIGMAS? I THINK THE WAY GAMING STARTED OUT IS THE CULPRIT FOR THOSE STIGMAS. I DON'T WANT TO SAY MUNDANE, BECAUSE THEY WERE VERY INTERESTING. BUT IN TERMS OF STORY AND ART, THERE WASN'T A LOT THERE AT THE START. SO IT WAS MORE ABOUT JUST THE ARCADE, ABOUT BEATING YOUR FRIENDS. BUT NOW GAMES ARE EVOLVING INTO AN ART FORM, AND THERE ARE SOME REALLY BEAUTIFUL GAMES OUT THERE THAT DO TELL A STORY. IT'S BECOMING JUST A NORMAL THING TO THEM. THE FULL VERSION OF THAT INTERVIEW IS AVAILABLE ON MY BUSINESS PODCAST. YOU CAN FIND THAT ON YOUR FAVOURITE PODCAST APP. IT'S ALSO UP ONLINE ` TVNZ.CO.NZ/SHOWS/Q-AND-A. THAT'S TVNZ.CO.NZ/SHOWS/Q-AND-A. YOUR FEEDBACK AND OUR FINAL PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. PLUS, A LOOK BACK TO A CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE VERY CONTROVERSIAL SCIENCE OF GENETIC MODIFICATION. YOUR FEEDBACK NOW. @KOMINSENS ASKS ON TWITTER... ALISA CAMPBELL HAS EMAILED SAYING THAT... AND FOLLOWING OUR INTERVIEW WITH SIR PETER GLUCKMAN... AND FOLLOWING OUR INTERVIEW WITH SIR PETER GLUCKMAN... INDEPENDENT STUDIES HAVE SHOWN HARM INCLUDING STUDIES DONE IN EUROPE. Hits and misses for you Laura. The political hat for me is the electionof Alexandria Cortez, Who took the seat in New York from a cop democratic, Who was very well funded. She was funded by the people and is part of an organisation called brand-new Congress, which are trying to replace Congress with ordinary Americans. The policy platform is pretty left-wing. Maybe not by New Zealand standards. It's free in New Zealand. It's like free Medicare for all, Free college for all, Job guaranteeing and I can't remember what the fourth part is, but it shows the shifting sands. My hat for the week as well. Great minds think alike. She is like the anti-Trump. She is young and she will win this. She has one nomination for DemocratsIn her district. She will get into the house and she will be the youngest ever. The Democrats once again looking for that saviour. They are always doing at. And they need it. Let's face it. Have you got a hit this week? My hit has been the World Cup actually. Fair enough. Politically, I guess, Winston Peters, he hasn't blown the country up after one week. I fully thought it was great what he was saying about the need for more bold thinking about our foreign policy And that he welcomes people's thoughts on that, And I will certainly be making my thoughts heard. Have we got Misses? The Minister of open government set up this group to advise her on funding of public broadcasting And we found out this week they had a meeting But they decided not to keep any minutes because they realise those minutes Would fall under the official information act. So is not a good luck. It's not open shouldn't they be allowed to have a discussion without going public. No. It has to be Mr Twyford, Who continues to be amusing me every week. This time he got told off by the speaker. He also claimed that its only rich people affected by the petrol tax. He was blasted by the speaker and that was quite a telling off. He was being a smart arse. He has got such a big job with Kiwi belt. He obviously enjoys the blood sport and politics. It is time that he stops thinking he is in the opposition And start doing his job as a minister. I could not think of a miss. The hit I was thinking about was the bill That brings in an extra $200 million of tax revenue to the government by Breaking down multinationals shifting their profits overseas. I think that is really good, because at this time, We need to clean their rivers and feed our kids And more money for the government is helpful. OUR LOOK BACK IN POLITICS TODAY FEATURES THE DEBATE OVER GENETIC MODIFICATION I RAISED WITH SIR PETER GLUCKMAN EARLIER IN THE PROGRAMME. BACK IN 2003, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE MARCHED IN PROTEST AS THE LABOUR-LED GOVERNMENT PREPARED TO LIFT THE MORATORIUM ON THE COMMERCIAL RELEASE OF GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS. THIS REPORT BY BARBARA DREAVER. EVERYWHERE, THE MESSAGE WAS THE SAME. IT'S GOING TO RUIN OUR HEALTH. WHY DO IT? WE DON'T WANT GE FOOD. WE WANT TO HAVE A GE-FREE NEW ZEALAND. WHILE SOME DANCED TO MAKE THEIR POINT,... (PERCUSSIVE MUSIC) ...OTHERS USED MORE BIZARRE TACTICS. AND EVEN FOUR-LEGGED PROTESTERS JOINED IN. (BARKS) BUT NOT EVERYONE WAS ON THE SAME SIDE. THIS PRO-GE GROUP CAME UNDER FIRE FROM THE PROTESTERS. WE'RE SAYING THAT GE AS A TECHNOLOGY IS NOT EVIL. NO PROOF THAT IT'S HARMFUL. AND A LOT OF THE POINTS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MAKE ARE NOT BASED ON ANY REAL FACTS. THEIR VIEW HELD LITTLE WEIGHT WITH THE PROTESTERS. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE ONIONS?! (CROWD SHOUT) NO, THEY'RE GE-FREE. MOTHERS AGAINST GENETIC ENGINEERING HAD THEIR OWN MESSAGE FOR GOVERNMENT. WELL, LET ME TELL THEM ` HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE WOMEN IGNORED. BUT IT'S A MESSAGE WHICH HAS NOT CHANGED THE GOVERNMENT'S POSITION. WE WANT IT FOR US. IT'LL PAY FOR HEALTH. IT WILL PAY FOR EDUCATION. IT'LL PAY FOR THE THINGS THAT WE BELONG TO. WE HAVE TO HAVE A GROWING ECONOMY. BUT PROTEST ORGANISERS ARE PROMISING THAT THIS FIGHT IS BY NO MEANS OVER. I covered the corn gate saga as it was And that hit the country... It was just an extraordinary debate. Sir Peter Gluckman has now said that we need to pick up the debate again And have another go. MARAE IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11:25. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY GLENNA CASALME AND ALEX WALKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2018