SIMON SHEPHERD: Today on Newshub Nation ` Green Party co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson are preparing for a major policy announcement. We have them live from their annual conference in Dunedin. Then ` a new dawn for work skills and training? Education Minister Chris Hipkins on his high-risk revamp of our polytechnics. What's in the fine print? And how well do you know our decision makers? We go behind the scenes with a flight attendant turned MP in our regular feature Backstory. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. AUT scrapped a Tiananmen Square anniversary event following pressure from the Chinese government, according to a report from Newsroom. The university blamed the cancellation on a booking issue. Fees from Chinese students make up nearly 10% of AUT's revenue. David Seymour's end-of-life choice bill is one step closer to becoming law. The bill is currently being debated clause by clause in Parliament before its third reading. On Wednesday, it was amended to offer assisted dying only to those with a terminal diagnosis and six months to live. A crowd converged on Parliament this week calling for change at Oranga Tamariki. The group, Hands Off Our Tamariki, demanded an end to the state removal of Maori children from their whanau. Acting Prime Minister Winston Peters said giving Maori sole charge won't instantly fix issues around the treatment of their children, and Europeans shouldn't be blamed for grievances Maori have with Oranga Tamariki. And National Party Leader Simon Bridges attacked the Prime Minister for visiting Tokelau. He said it was a busy week in Parliament and called her 'a part-time prime minister'. Finance Minister Grant Robertson slammed the comment as having 'sexist overtones'. Well, they are the third guest at the coalition dinner party, so how much influence have they had over the menu? The Green Party is holding its annual conference this weekend, and both co-leaders, Marama Davidson and James Shaw, join me now from Dunedin. Welcome to you both this morning. James, could I ask you first ` what's the core thing that you actually bring to this leadership? Well, I think that often gets talked about as if it's some kind of lolly scramble, but what we've got is a programme for the whole government, and if you look at our confidence and supply agreement, it stretches across every part of the government. The things that I'm most proud of, of course, are things like the $1.9 billion that's gone into mental health; the hugest increase in Department of Conservation funding since the agency was founded;... Sure. ...the Zero Carbon Bill; reforms to the Emissions Trading Scheme. I mean, we've got influence right across the board. The question is more of a personal one, and the personal one is the core thing. Your political style is very different to Marama Davidson, I would say, so what is the core thing that you bring to that political style? Well, it's the great thing about the co-leadership model is that we can have different leadership styles, and what that allows us to do is to reach a wider array of audiences, and it also mitigates against the kind of swings that you get when other parties change their leadership. So, I guess, my job as a member of the executive is to make sure that we're delivering on the confidence and supply agreement and that we're bringing people along with us. So, let's try the personal question to you, Marama. What is yours? Because you have a different political style. How would you characterise your leadership? And again, it was important the co-leadership model upholds the diversity, the different insights, constituencies and communities we come from. It was important in our first term to have a non-executive co-leader who can make sure that we are bringing our members with us ` this is our first time being in this confidence and supply agreement in government ` making sure that our members feel that we are staying grounded and connected with them. Being that communication focus without having a ministerial portfolio has been really important. All right. So, Marama, you're willing to be on the front line. You're saying you wanna be outside the executives, willing to be on the front line, and sometimes that is at odds with the coalition government. How does that actually play out, James, in cabinet when you're making these decisions? They say, 'What has Marama done now?' Look, I mean, this is actually kinda not news to anyone. We actually formed the government on the basis of a confidence and supply agreement, and what that allows us to do is to be both a part of the government but also to maintain an independent voice on issues where we don't have cabinet responsibility. That's actually pretty well understood around the cabinet table, and as long as we're in good communication with each other, it's actually fine. And Marama, do you think that this is a deliberate policy or tactic on your behalf when it comes to election year to actually show some difference for the Greens, as opposed to, say, Labour, which is starting to gobble up all the Green policies? It's going to be crucial for us to be able to have our independent political positions alongside getting stuff done in government. James talked about some of those things. I want to add on Jan Logie's incredible work about whole-of-government approach to ending domestic violence; phasing out single plastic bags; and public transport ` revolutionising how we move around. It is also going to be incredibly important that we can be clear and say, 'We are the party that will push to go faster and stronger, the most progressive changes; 'we are the caretakers of truly responding to inequality and climate change.' Oh, OK. All right, well, let's... let's just go to that in a moment. I want to ask you about reports out today that this particular conference doesn't look that transparent and that the media are only getting access to a couple of speeches. There's a bit of hypersensitivity. Do you lack confidence when it comes to seeing how the Green Party actually works from the outside? Simon, actually, there's been no change in the way that we manage our annual general meetings. This has been the case for a number of years now, and we've had these kinds of stories before, but there does seem to be, I guess, a renewal of those kinds of stories at this AGM. So you do have your big-party pants on, and you are willing just to be open and transparent? (CHUCKLES) Yeah, of course. Like I said, we've been running our AGMs this way for many years now, and there's been no change. Simon, it's been really` Our conferences are really important for us to engage with our members. It's a priority for us. And also, the majority of the media agencies happen to be here. OK. You mentioned, Marama, how you're willing to stand on certain issues which are not a part of your cabinet responsibility. One of those where you've been on the front line is Ihumatao, OK? So, King Tuheitia's going out there today. What have you heard about how that's going to play out, seeing as he's really taking the side of the existing iwi that have the deal with Fletcher's? Firstly, I don't think that's absolutely clear that he's taking sides. They've been, up to this point, saying that they are there to support all the mana whenua. They are going to listen; they are going to engage. This is an incredibly positive step, and it's on the back of a nationwide conversation that we are having for the first time in a long time about New Zealanders understanding and facing our colonial history, and this is a positive thing for a peaceful and harmonious future. I'm really pleased about the engagement and the conversation that is being had. And yet, Winston Peters this week was saying that he's coming down on the side of the local iwi and that there was probably not much chance of the government actually buying the land. So how does that play out with you guys? So, governments forever have chosen who they want to do deals with and speak to. The Greens have always been very clear; the large natural groupings part of Treaty settlements is one that is flawed and has continued to cause conflict and set iwi against iwi and hapu against hapu. I'm really pleased` and I've been on Ihumatao, seeing the amazing care and peaceful resistance and protection that they are leading, and I urge more New Zealanders to go along and have a look. Well, one person that hasn't gone along and had a look is you, James. Why didn't you go to Ihumatao? On the day that our MPs were up there, I was basically` you know, had a series of ministerial appointments, and, in fact, none of our other ministers were there either. I didn't see anything in the ministerial media diary; that's why I'm asking why you weren't there. Um, well, I.. I had work on, so... as did our other ministers. OK. All right... Simon, this is a Green Party political position that all of our MPs and party uphold to, regardless of the fact that` and 50% of our caucus were able to get along to Ihumatao. Yeah, which is more than any other caucus. (CHUCKLES) OK. All right. Let's talk about what you haven't done. You were talking about what you have done earlier, James; let's talk about what you haven't done. What's your biggest regret so far, having been part of this coalition government? Yeah, look, I was thinking about this recently. The only thing that we've kind of absolutely lost on was the capital gains tax. You know, there are a number of areas where we'd like to be going further and faster, but we're actually making progress right across the board. But we were disappointed that the capital gains tax was just a non-starter. So, you want to go further and faster on what? What's the number one thing you want to go further and faster on? Well, for me, obviously, that's climate change. I mean, we're making really good progress there. But we are` you know, the window of opportunity for us to fix climate change is narrowing rapidly, and there's a lot of work to be done. All right, Marama, you've been hot on housing, but I don't think you've actually got any wins on that so far. What about this rent-to-own or shared equity policy that is in your supply and confidence agreement? Actually, it was core Green policy to remove tenancy fees, for example. It was core Green policy to be able to have better standards for testing methampheta` meth in houses contamination. There are a list of things that, because of the strong Green heart and influence, we have been able to achieve with Labour. Of course, we cannot address climate change without addressing inequality, and housing is a massive lever in that space. I'll be talking this weekend about some of the work that we will continue to prioritise and work on. Well, let's go back to the question I asked you, and that is ` what happened to the rent-to-own agreement that you have with Labour in your confidence and supply? What's happened to that? So we've cont` Simon, we've continued to work from the start of this term working with ministers, looking at plans and different options. That's a priority for us. It will be delivered, and I'll be picking up on that work and on that conversation for New Zealanders in the very near future. So in the very near future. Tomorrow, will you be announcing a housing policy on this? You'll have to wait and see. I can't wait till you tune in and have a look. Well, you can tell us now, Marama. (BOTH LAUGH) You're honoured to know and to be the first outlet to know that we will be focusing on housing as part of this weekend. What about the other issues? Like, you wanted a rental warrant of fitness and also more laws for renters guaranteeing them a longer tenancy. What's happened to those kinds of things, Marama? And again, we have been consistently at the table making sure that` because we understand the issues of how difficult it is for people to just find a place to live that they can afford and doesn't make them sick. So those are key issues for the Greens, and we are continuing to do the work on those areas. All right, let's turn on to another key issue for the country ` as well as the Green Party ` and that's clean rivers. It seems to have fallen off the radar a bit. I mean, the Green Party have campaigned on this for several elections. So has your voice, James, been muted while you've been in government, on this? No, absolutely not. And I wouldn't say that it's fallen off the radar. It's obviously a really complex issue, and it is taking time for us to get it out to the public. But there is a huge amount of work going on on how to clean up our rivers and our urban water as well, which is at least as polluted as our rural rivers and streams. And you'll be seeing stuff coming out from the government in the not-too-distant future. All right. What about the perception of the Green Party while you have been at the government table? The perception in the first, sort of, year and a half has been that New Zealand First has got more gains out of this government than you have. How are you going to turn that around? I think it's` You know, part of this, like I said, is this kind of perception that there's some sort of lolly scramble. What you've actually got here is an MMP government with three partners, and we all bring something different and unique to the table. And actually, I think it's functioning really well. That may be a surprise to some people, but it's actually really working. So the idea that we're in it to get something out of it for ourselves is` You know, people haven't understood what this is about. We're actually here as a government for New Zealand. So, the kinds of things that I started the show on ` talking about the huge shift in public transport funding, the work that we're doing on housing, cleaning up our rivers, the end of plastic bags and the start of the whole, kind of, getting our waste streams down, climate change and so on ` I mean, frankly, the idea that we're not getting anything out of this government is a complete misnomer. All right. Going into the next election, how are you going to position yourselves, and how are you going to behave? Because you had the attack ad on National just recently, which got pulled. And that was signed off by James. So Marama, are you happy with that kind of more aggressive leadership leading up to the election? It was an attempt at humour. We were wanting to highlight the dangerous inaction of Simon Bridges on climate change. It was not at all supposed to be an aggressive attack. It didn't fly; it didn't land, and we took it down. So, Marama, how would you say that the relationship's working with James? You're about a year into being a co-leader now. How would you describe it? Oh, we've had a long, good working relationship since before I became co-leader, and obviously it's become a closer, more regular friendship alongside a co-leadership. I really like that we can pick up different, complementary roles, that we can take turns on the various responsibilities of a leadership of a party, and that will continue, and that will carry on. All right. So I'm looking forward to your housing announcement tomorrow, but I've got one quick question, and that is to both of you ` James, I guess. Working with National after the election ` is that completely off the table? Can you say that now? Yes, absolutely. Look, I would never empower someone with as little personal integrity as Simon Bridges to become prime minister. And we're making huge progress as part of this government, and we want this government to be returned. OK. James Shaw and Marama Davidson, thank you very much for your time from Dunedin this morning. Right, if you've got something to say about what you see on our show, please let us know. We are on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. NewshubNationNZ is what you need to look out for. Our Twitter panel this week is business consultant Tim McCready and NZ Herald political reporter Jason Walls, using the hashtag #NationNZ, as I said. Or you can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. The address should be on your screen. Anyway, still to come ` we dissect the week's political news with our panel. But first ` Education Minister Chris Hipkins on his high-stakes gamble with our polytechnics. Welcome back. He's described it as a new dawn for vocational training ` one mega polytech to educate them all. So what does it mean for regional polytechs, and how will it affect the apprenticeships? Education Minister Chris Hipkins joins me now. Thank you for your time this morning. In your own briefing papers, this has been described as 'high risk' and 'extremely complex'. Why do it? There's no risk-free option here. The reality is leaving things as they are would be high-risk as well. We know that without significant intervention, a number of our polytechs were teetering on the edge of not being there. We can't afford for that to happen. And, of course, we know we've got critical skill shortages as well, so the system's not delivering the skills that New Zealand needs in order to be able to thrive as a country. Is it like an ideological point, though, to centralise everything? No, this isn't about centralising everything. It's about making the system work more efficiently and more effectively as a whole. We don't need to have 19 different qualifications and 19 different programmes to teach someone how to be a truck driver. We don't need a plethora of qualifications and programmes around the country that are delivering the same things. With all of the resource that goes into developing those things over and over again ` we're reinventing the wheel up and down the country all of the time at the moment. We don't need to do that. So the point of the reform is to boost student numbers and train our workforce for the future, but the Cabinet documents say that this change could lead to a drop in student numbers of 18,000 in the short term. So that's not going to address the immediate skill shortage. One of the things that we did when we went out and consulted on the reform proposal, we then looked very carefully over the last six or seven months about how we can manage the transition so that that's the worst-case scenario. We're obviously aiming to not lose students along the way, and in fact, we want to keep growing the number of people in apprenticeships and on-job training, who are doing courses through polytechs` And those numbers are growing. In terms of apprenticeships, at the moment, they already are growing, aren't they? In apprenticeships, they've been growing. In industry training, they've been decreasing. Across the board, the polytech system has been losing numbers for a number of years now, so this is not a new trend. It's been happening for a while. We've got to turn that around. The fees-free university policy ` or actually the tertiary education policy ` hasn't boosted numbers. And you're just giving money away there. So you're going to use the money saved there to fund this policy. What makes you think that this one's going to work? Look, I think we're doing a pretty comprehensive set of reforms. We haven't just found one silver bullet and said, 'We'll do this, and everything will be right.' We know we've also got to make trades training and vocational training a more attractive career option for young people. Actually, a lot of young New Zealanders don't know that they can earn more money going into the trades than they might be able to earn if they go and get a university degree. I think schools, for too long, have worked on the basis that the ultimate goal for a secondary school is to get all of their kids to go to university. In fact, fewer than a third of their kids are going to university. So we've got to actually focus on saying to young people that trades are really good career options, that there are good jobs out there, and we really want them to get into them. So let's go back to the fees-free, then. I mean, that was the silver bullet of first year free tertiary education. The Cabinet papers said that you may get even more money from that because it's underperforming more than expected ` more than the provisions. Is that policy just not working? It's not that fees-free is underperforming. In fact, in the university space, it's delivering about the numbers that we expected it to. So where are the savings in fees-free coming from then? Because we've got fewer people going into the vocational education ` into the polytechs ` than what we need there to be. Fees-free applies to them, and fees-free also applies to people who are doing on-job learning like apprenticeships. And actually, that's where we need to see the growth. We've got to get more people into those areas. All right. This is going to see 16 polytechs become one mega polytech to provide the training. Is that playing into criticism that you're going to have one big bureaucracy looking after the whole country? No, because there will be devolved decision-making within that. And that's one of the jobs. The transition board ` they've got to design the system to make sure that there's devolved decision-making within that. But we've also been really clear ` and actually, we've had strong support from around the country, from the polytechs about this ` that we don't need everybody to be replicating what everybody else is doing and competing with one another, basically in a race to the bottom. We've actually got to get a system that's collaborative, where they're sharing what they're doing well, where each region is playing to its strengths. You look at the system now ` every part of the country has got something where they've got a natural area of strength. We need to draw that out, rather than trying to get them all competing with each other. So you're going to have the head office, and it's not going to be in Auckland or Wellington. Where is it going to be? Well, the transition board will be based in Christchurch. Their job is going to be to determine where the head office ultimately ends up being. It may not even be in Christchurch. It could be in one of the other regions. Regions are going to have to put their pitch as to why they think the head office should be based there. It's going to have to be somewhere with decent transport links, as quite a critical mass of workers, so Christchurch makes a logical decision. Yeah, and the head office doesn't actually need to be that big either. A lot of the head office function can be spread throughout different regions. So it might be your student management system's based one area, your HR systems is somewhere else and your finance system is somewhere else. So you're going to regionalise the head office in several locations? Look, I think that there's no reason to say that we need to have a particularly big head office. We need more leadership. We need the system to operate more cohesively and coherently as a whole, but that does not mean that everything needs to be centralised. OK. You are saying that you want more collaboration and less replication. That's right. So, there's 16 current institutions around the country, so which of those are going to close? There will be no closures. This is not about closures. So all the existing polytechs will exist under the new ` in one form or the other ` under the new mega campus? That's right. So all of those campuses that are operating now will keep operating, but what we do know is that some of those polytechs have been closing down their smaller campuses now, because they're not financially viable. Part of what we're trying to achieve here is to turn that around, so that we can make sure that in those smaller areas we're offering a greater range of options. By smaller campuses, are you talking about in the regions, though? In the regions, that's right. If we do nothing, we'll see a lot of those smaller campuses continuing to be closed because they're not financially viable, and that's one of the things we want to stop. OK, but a lot of them have city campuses. The Southern Institute has a campus in Auckland and so does Otago to get the money coming through. So what's going to happen to those city campuses, those buildings on Queen Street? Look, if you look at the drive to recruit international students into Auckland, where all the polytechs ` not all of them, but a number of them ` are setting up campuses on Queen Street to compete with one another to bring international students in. That is an inefficient system. It's not good for the regions. We want more international students out in the regions. Right, so in other words, some of those campuses are going to close, aren't they? In central Auckland, there may well be fewer campuses delivering for international students. All right. In the regions, this is upsetting one particular polytech, and that's the Southern Institute. They've been very vocal. Do you think it's going to lose` They're worried they're going to lose its special character, its regional identity, through this. No, one of the things we've heard really loud and clear ` not just from SIT and from Invercargill, but from around the country ` is that people want to be able to keep innovating, and they want to still be very responsive to local needs. We need the system to be able to do those things as well. And this has been a very successful one. They've got $36 million in cash reserves, and in your own documents, you say, 'There's scope to manage some of the new institute's setup costs 'through reprioritisation of leveraging accumulated reserves.' Does that mean the reserves that that institute's built up over the years is going to be used to set up the new one? No, we have been absolutely clear that those institutions that have got significant cash reserves, they will be ring-fenced and they will be spent for that region, in that region for that region's benefit. So the Southern Institute can hang on to that $36 million? We've been very, very clear about that. Otherwise they're hinting at a legal challenge. You don't want that, do you? We'll cross that bridge if we come to it, but my message to the community of Invercargill ` there are a couple of others who have got reasonably significant cash reserves ` those are going to be ring-fenced. They're going to be preserved for their community. All right. Let's move on to jobs. National says 13,000 will go, and that's roughly the number of the independent training organisations. Will 13,000 jobs go? No, absolutely not. That's just absolute scare-mongering hogwash, quite frankly. But you have said to us that it could be a significant number. That works on the basis that every person who is currently supporting on-job learning, an apprenticeship or an industry trainee, would lose their job. Those apprentices, those industry trainees, are still going to be there, and in fact, we're aiming to grow the number of them. So the number of people supporting them is likely to grow, not decrease. So that's just absolutely ridiculous. Let's move on, then, to the overall reorganisation. Will jobs go? Because the Cabinet papers say they probably will. In the short term, there will be no change. So in the next six or seven months, as we head towards the starting of the transition, there will be no change. In the first few years, as the current polytechs operate as subsidiaries of the new institute, there will be next to no change there. Any changes that affect people's jobs will be well worked through. The people who may be involved will be well consulted` So is it too early to forecast any numbers? Absolutely too early. This isn't about job losses. Some people's jobs may change, but they'll be well-supported through that process, and that will be over a longer period. OK, one last quick question. New Zealand's been ranked as number one in the OECD for its on-the-job training, the apprentices. So that's been a successful format. Is there a risk by reforming all of that that businesses are going to lose confidence in the education sector, and we're not going to have the apprentices that we need for the building and skills shortage? No, because if you look at the way that we've designed the transition, what we're aiming to do here is provide stability and certainty during the transition period. But we want to leverage off that strength. We have got a strength around on-job training. We want to leverage off that strength to improve what's happening in the polytech system. One of the things that employers have been telling us for a long time is that the skills that are being delivered, by polytechs, by PTEs and others, aren't giving them the skilled workers that they need. There's often a mismatch between what's being delivered and what their skill needs are. Employers have got a good degree of influence over the on-job training part. We're giving them much more influence over the off-job training part, so that they can get the skills that they need. All right. Chris Hipkins, thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you. OK. Up next ` flight attendant turned MP Marja Lubeck gives us her backstory. Plus ` The Pitch ` National Party list MP Brett Hudson has five minutes to convince you he could out-perform current police minister Stuart Nash. Welcome back to Backstory, where we ask ` how well do we know our decision-makers? She was born in Holland, lived with her family in a campervan for three years and worked as a flight attendant for Air New Zealand. Marja Lubeck is a Labour MP in her first term, so we went to her home in Rodney north of Auckland to hear her Backstory. We shifted here in 2007, when my son had to go to school. We stopped giving them names, because the very first time we had cows, they were Pirate and some other cute names. And then, of course, you end up eating Pirate and the other cute names, and it's all of a sudden not so much fun to have the cows. It's a good way to get my son to eat it. He never really wanted to eat spinach or silverbeet. I guess it's not the most attractive vegetable. Then we said, you know, it's Popeye, and look at Popeye, he's so strong. So we started to make these pies filled with spinach and white sauce, and we called them Popeye pies, and he loved it! And so that's his favourite food now. (CHUCKLES) You want some too? They're just pets. They actually lay eggs, but we have no idea where they are. (CHUCKLES) Oh, Mrs Black! Oh, the only one that has a name! Cos she is very, very old. Mrs Black was fierce, and she would chase away all of the other chickens, but, yeah, now she's a bit scared, hey. The duck thinks it's a chicken, and it never even goes into the pond anymore. That's its pond. It used to love to swim in it, but now that he thinks he's a chicken, there's no more swimming in the pond. When I was pregnant with my son, I cut through my hand trying to get an avocado pip out. It actually came out on this side. But it left my two fingers numb, so, yeah, I'm always a bit aware when I do stuff with my hands. It feels funny. So, this is the campervan that we lived in for three years. It looks quite big when you first see it, but then when you live in it, it ends up being very small. (LAUGHS) We didn't want our son to grow up in Auckland. We thought he'd wanna go into the countryside, but we didn't know where to go. So got this campervan and started to travel around. And that's the suitcase that I lived out of for three years while we lived in the campervan, travelling to, you know, all sorts of destinations and all over the world. Part of my uniform that I used to wear when we did that. And then I would come home, land in Auckland and grab a flight to wherever my husband and my son had travelled to in this campervan. Could be Tauranga, Nelson, Christchurch. And I'd end up spending a few days with them before I went back on my next trip. I served four terms as the flight attendant union president. We ended up doing a merger as the flight attendant union with the larger union, and at some stage somebody asked me whether I could try get the party vote out up in North` in Rodney, where I was living. And I had no idea what that meant. I'd recently joined the Labour party, 2016, at the centenary. (CHUCKLES) But, yeah, I thought that it would be fun. They just said you run the campaign, get the party vote out for Labour, spread the message. They said, 'Look, if you're interested in politics, 'maybe in 2020 you can see if that's something you might seriously want to consider.' And, of course, we had a change of leadership in August, and a lot of us on the list came in quite unexpectedly, and that's what happened to me. And all of a sudden, it was very clear that, yeah, definitely the party vote would get me in. Then from then on, it was just a blur, because that was on Saturday. On Monday, I was in Wellington. And in fact, I got a message, text message from my boss in Air New Zealand saying, 'I think you need to resign if you've got a new job.' (LAUGHS) So that's how unexpected it was. These are the photos of our lives, I guess, together. Families, going travelling. Some of our trips away. And on this side we have, you know, grandmas and grandpas from both sides. Nana passed away a month after I started my MP job. But I mentioned her in my maiden speech, and she heard that, so that was nice. That's me there, my mum and my dad. Kinda used to dress up just to go on a stroll with the baby. I was born in Holland, so, yeah, half-Dutch from my Mum's side and half-Indonesian with some Chinese in there from my Dad's side. My grandfather ended up in Indonesia in a Japanese war camp, so that was 1944, where he died. And so, my Dad, as a young boy with his sisters, his mother and his grandma, came to Holland after the war, after '45, where he met my mother, who also had lived through wartime with her family. And they met each other as a young couple at work. My dad would have been about 5 when they went into` uh, they were interned in the camp first, in the family camp. But then they took my grandfather away to a concentration camp, pretty much, where he died about a year later. So, my dad was really young, a really young boy with his two sisters. And my grandma had only been married for seven years. So it was really hard for them to then have to shift to the other side of the world, a cold country like Holland, and try and make a whole new living. But they did, she had her own business, and yeah, she did really well. Early 2017, I promised my son I would do Machu Picchu, the Inca hike with him. And we would practise. But of course, at the same time, about a month later, I started campaigning for Rodney. So Max and I hopped on a plane. We did Machu Picchu, and it is probably the most challenging thing I ever had to do in my life. I put it right up there with my law degree. At the moment, a lot of it has been just actually surviving the first term. Learning so much new things. It's a completely different job. It's not like anything else. And my predominant motivator was, you know, seeing that inequality and being unhappy, especially at the grassroots level. Seeing that in the union movement. You know, how that inequality was just growing and growing in New Zealand. So for me, all of the changes that we're making in different kinds of legislation but especially also in employment law, yeah, that really gets me going. And Marja Lubeck there. I'm joined now by our panel for this week ` media commentator Janet Wilson, Stuff Senior Journalist Andrea Vance and political commentator Shane Te Pou. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Janet, first to you ` how do you think the co-leader relationship is going in the Green Party after watching that interview? Well, if you look at the interview, it looked an incredibly awkward interview. Why do you say that? James Shaw never referred to Marama or looked at Marama in any way. His body language was actually almost turning away from her. He looked very uncomfortable. He didn't look at ease. They looked like two quite separate members when they should be together. And, of course, you know, the Rod McDonald and Jeanette combination was the dream team for the Greens, wasn't it? So` But we don't have that here. So, Andrea, do you think the Greens should keep pushing on with this co-leadership model if they can't find that energy and synergy? (SIGHS) Well, I mean, the partnership's, as Janet said, obviously Jeanette and Rob were the dream team, and the partnerships since then have been shaky at best. They haven't quite had the chemistry. It is a difficult model to win on. And people tend to like to identify with one single person. I guess the way that the Greens see it is they've got James, who's very strong on climate change policy. He's the dry, economic details guy. And then Marama is more about social justice. So you keep the base happy. But it's all about the chemistry, and I don't think they've got it there. You don't think it comes through? No. Shane, isn't that a good` On paper, that looks like a good idea, if you've got someone that's dry economically and can be in government, and you've got someone that can appeal to the base being outside of government. I think they have no choice but to have a co-leadership because of the tensions that do exist internally within the Greens. You know, they've been around for 20-plus years. This is the first time they've been attached to a Government. A lot of their grassroots people say they're not doing enough, you know, and not quick enough. They're very` almost come from different parties, Marama and James. You know, James is quite economically dry, where Marama, frankly, is a socialist. So those tensions just` So will this partnership work for them going into the next election, particularly when they have to fight the perception that they're losing out to New Zealand First, Janet? Yeah, I think that schizophrenic nature has always been there. It's been highlighted now by these two co-leaders, and the very difference between them means that, you know, why have we got a conference where the media actually don't have access to what is going on within the conference? The reason for that is that there are obvious tensions at the moment that they don't want to highlight. So they were saying that it is business as usual for them. Well, actually, I have to say that it is business as usual, in that, I mean, I've been covering politics for 10 years here now in New Zealand, and I've been into almost every Greens conference in that time, and the media have been locked out in successive years. But it` The point, the reason for that is because they don't` There's always that tension in the Greens, between the environmental side of things and the social justice side of things, and Green Party members tend to be much more outspoken than other party members. And so it's true that they definitely don't want that to be seen. Shane, you want to jump in here, don't you? I think that there's a caricature that exists at Green conferences where you get people who're a little bit unusual, a little bit odd. They want the Greens to be green, but they want them to be mainstream. So I think that's about managing their own crowd, to be honest. They don't want Morris Dancing. They don't want us to see the Morris Dancing. Yeah, but that's such a` That's the legacy. I think that's a bit` It still exists? It still exists, and when you do go to this conference, there are people in their mohair jackets with the dreadlocks. They haven't got away from that quite yet. Nothing wrong with dreadlocks. OK, just going into the election, just finally on the Greens, going into the election next year ` has the Labour Party taken away too much of the Greens' core policies? Are they gonna find it hard, say, Shane, to defy history and get back into power? No, I think they will be in power. My prediction this far out, and anything could happen, we saw the Greens go from 15 to barely survive at the last election, but my prediction this far out is that perhaps all three coalition partiers will exist in some form. But no, the reality is that there is a difficult situation, because you do have a very strong green tinge within the Labour Party, and many of the Greens' policies are the Labour's natural instincts anyway. So that is an issue for the Greens. Defining themselves and continuing to define themselves when they've only got one coalition partner, which is Labour, is the great unsaid, the great question mark hanging above the Greens, isn't it? They've gotta be the Greens, not the old Alliance. (LAUGHS) OK, all right. All right, well, let's move on to the other story today we covered this morning with Education Minister Chris Hipkins. And there's, Andrea, a massive revamp of the polytech and ITOs as well. High-risk. I mean, why are we` He says it's high-risk. Is it really worth it? Extraordinarily high-risk, but I think he's made the case that it's absolutely necessary, for two reasons ` that obviously the government spent $100 million recently bailing out three polytechnics; others are in deficit, teetering on the edge. You know, there needed to be a change there. Also, you know, Labour has always been very strong in opposition and now in government about changing the workforce. We're seeing much more automation, and people need to be trained better in skills, and they wanna move away from polytechnics that have been focusing on academia. They want more people in skills areas. 70%, I think, of employers say that they need more skilled workforce, and they're worried about skill shortages. So these two things have come together to make that reform absolutely necessary, hugely ambitious, as are Labour's other education reforms at the moment. Tomorrow's Schools, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, he's got a phenomenal workload, Chris Hipkins. And I think he faltered on this to start with, but actually, since February, and over the consultation period, he's actually managed to win a lot more people over... So starting to pull support? ...and make the case a bit better. So, Janet, is he winning the support of the regions? We've seen like, you know, Tim Shadbolt come out firing this week about protecting SIT. Yeah, and you've gotta ask the question ` is he using a mallet to smash a flea in terms of the problem itself? He's been very effective in framing up what the issue is, the $100 million that they've had to spend bailing everyone out. But there are successful polytechnics around the country in regional areas who may not actually be better off under this new system. That's right. And that's the problem. And the other problem is, you look at, in New South Wales, their TAFE, which is their polytechnic area, they amalgamated 16 of them. They had a $30 million overrun in the first year, and a $240 million overrun in the second year. (LAUGHS) OK. So the costings and the money is gonna be really important. Well, speaking of money, I mean, Shane, initially this is gonna be funded from the shortfall in the fees-free. And, in the fine print, it says there's gonna be further shortfalls, an underspend in that. So the fees-free policy is not working. But they've gotta` So that's where the money's come from, so they've just ditched that fees-free policy and go, 'Here, let's give it to the vocations.' Yeah, yeah, I saw the minister put a spin on it. I don't accept the spin. You know, when he was saying, 'Well, it's a sign of success in other areas.' But the reality is I think there needs to be a very clear demarcation ` I'm an employer ` a very clear demarcation between academia and our chronic skill shortage, particularly in the trade areas. And I think that this may put more emphasis on this. The reality is, you know, we have something like seven or eight different qualifications for truck driving. Whether you're a truck driver in Southland or in Whangarei or in Kawerau ` the qualification ought to be the same, and we ought to have some centralisation and standardisation. So I am hopeful. The current system is broke, and we've got to try and fix it. If you look at the small` the fine print on this, if you look at the detail of the announcement this week, yes, the short-term investment is considerable. It's quite a lot of money. But the Treasury analysis is that in the long-term, over the coming decades, actually, the benefits are in the billions. You know, you have to balance that argument. I guess, the thing is that, but also in the fine print, it says it's going to be a 10-year thing to see whether this works. Will people have the patience? No, I don't think they will for 10 years. The other consideration is they're getting rid of the ITOs, which is fine, and the ITOs have accepted that` Sort of. ...sort of, reluctantly. These workforce development councils that are replacing the ITOs, are they just another way of keeping academia and the business sector apart, and what involvement will the business sector have in a direct way? Because if these don't work vocationally for the business sector, they're not going to hire these guys, are they? Well, there's a lot of detail that's going to come out soon. It's a massive project. Thank you. I'm going to leave it there for the panel. Thank you very much for your time for the moment. All right. Up next ` The Pitch. National's Police Spokesperson, Brett Hudson, has five minutes to sell you on his vision for the force. Plus ` the prime minister might've been away, but there was plenty of action in the House this week. We'll be right back. has just five minutes to convince you of their ideas. National sells itself as the party that's tough on crime, but what does that really mean? Reporter John-Michael Swannix asked wannabe Police Minister Brett Hudson what his priorities would be, if he had the chance. My priority would be ensuring that our police have got all of the tools and resources they need to do their jobs as effectively as possible, and to help New Zealanders feel safe. How will you go about achieving that? Well, certainly from my background ` which is technology ` I'd like to see police officer time freed-up, front line time freed-up. We did a lot of this in government under smarter policing. In May 2017 the Police Association said police were over-loaded and at breaking point with shortages and response and investigation. If National is the party of law and order, how could it have let things get that bad? Well, National, around that time, announced a $500 million Safer Communities package. But how did it let things get that bad? Well, I think you'll find that, um` Yeah, the nature of policing work and where New Zealand had moved to, there was a much greater demand on those resources. The resources in particular though, were not benefitting or hadn't been benefitting from more efficient use of their time. Will you continue this government's push to have 18,000 more police into the community? Well, the first thing we're going to do is hold them to account for actually delivering their promise. But say if you win next year, it'll be three years through. You'll have two more years to get those 18,000 officers, will you then take up that mantle? Well, actually, they promised to do it in three years, not five. So we're going to keep them to account on those results. Just note, they're only about 600 at the moment. They haven't even delivered the 880 front line staff that we pledged to do. Are you a fan of community policing or centralisation? I think there's roles for both, but New Zealanders, themselves, love to see police officers in their communities. I think there's ample opportunity for police to work more closely with volunteer organisations, with community organisations. Community safety patrol is a great example. Is there institutional racism in the police? I think there have been issues in the police. Some have been canvassed very publically in the past. I know that they are committed to being the best that the force can be. Do you think that officers need more training to address the disproportionately high numbers or Maori and Pacifica who are arrested? I think officers receive and are mindful of interacting with all New Zealanders from all walks of life. Now, under our social investment model we had plans to target early and appropriate interventions to help ensure that far fewer New Zealanders ever became criminals. Should police have been brought into the Ihumatao dispute? Well, the police have a role in general terms in public safety and peace and order. If the government's gun law reforms are not fully in place at the next election, will you take up the mantle and push through further reforms? We'll support practical reforms. What do you support? We support reforms, in particular, that are focused on genuine criminal activity and gang-possession of firearms. A register? If a register can be put in place, that will deliver an objective, and reach an objective of making the public safer, then that's something that we can back. But if it's simply going to be a register that will place greater cost and responsibility and onus on law-abiding New Zealanders and not achieve an objective of making everyone safer, Well, we're going to have some pretty hard questions about that. We have a register for cars. Why don't we have one for guns? There's quite a distinct difference in the usage of those two things, for one. So it is much easier for police or any enforcement body to be able to track and deal with an unregistered vehicle, simply because it's in the public arena more often. Do you believe police in New Zealand should be able to carry guns on their person? Well, the police do carry guns, in effect` In their vehicles. Yes, every vehicle will have firearms, and it's at the discretion of that officer, as to whether or not to take them and use them. What is your position about body cameras on police officers? It's something I'd like to look into, actually. I'd like to seek a briefing from police, as to` What about cameras in police cars? That's another one thing which I'm quite interested` Body ones, I think is one that I want to explore why they've chose not to go further on. When you consider the large number of deaths from police pursuits ` nearly 30 in the last three years ` is a ban something that National would ever consider? Not a ban, certainly police need to be able to know that they can exercise their authority to apprehend offenders. Mental health workers with police, is that something that you would be bringing back in, in your first term? Well, it's certainly something we support. But in your first term would that be a policy? Like all matters in our campaign manifesto for the next election, it'll be something that we will be discussing. We're quite bewildered, actually, as to why those mental health nurses have effectively been pulled. What difference would the public notice in the area of policing under a National-led government? I think the focus is the victim-centric. We understand that keeping New Zealand safe is the fundamental responsibility of policing in New Zealand. Brett Hudson from National there. Stay with us. We'll be back after the break. Welcome back. And we are back with our panel ` Janet Wilson, Andrea Vance and Shane Te Pou. Uh, Shane, King Tuheitia is visiting Ihumatao. How significant is that? I think it's very significant, and I think it's the right thing for him to do. The... I think the very articulate young protesters, protectors out there are saying that, 'It's our king,' so they seem him as part of them, part of the whanau. So I think that he will play quite a progressive and constructive role there. So I think it's good that he's going there. They are his people. Yeah, sure. But hasn't he publicly said that he's generally on the side of Te Kawerau a Maki, the mana whenua out there, who struck the deal with Fletcher's? I would expect him to be on their side. He is` There is a growing aristocracy within Maoridom, and he does represent, ultimately, that aristocracy. But this movement out in Ihumatao is led by what we call the Kohanga Kids, people like Pania and others that have come out through the Kohanga movement. They are very articulate, and they need to be listened to, and I think the king going there today is a sign of that. All right. Speaking of being listened to, do you think, Andrea, that Jacinda Ardern will go to Ihumatao? Um... Tricky one, I know. Yeah. Will she go? I don't know. Should she go? I think probably the symbolism is very important. I think she needs to be shown to be listening. Whether she actually says anything of any substance or merit while she's there is probably a step too far. But I think she needs to be... for the sake of the Maori caucus and Maori votes, I think that she really needs to demonstrate that the government is taking this seriously and that they are listening and that they are going to try and resolve it. Yet, Winston Peters ` cos he held post-cab this week, Janet ` he came down and said it's unlikely, or seemed to come down on the side of the existing agreement. Yes. So... Look, I agree with Andrea in that I think she will probably go. It's going to` Or should probably go. Should probably go. But having gone, what is she going to do? I'm not sure we're going to actually see a lot in the way of resolvement of this by her being there. It will be largely symbolic. Yeah. I think that we need to look at an elegant solution, and people like Pania and Kawerau a Maki need to think about that. She needs to go, and she needs to go sooner rather than later. We gave her seven seats. She is our leader, and I think she owes it to Maoridom to go. This is the issue of the day for Maori. And also, I think that if it's handled badly, we could see a bit of a regrowth of perhaps the Maori Party or an alternative. This is her chance to show some real leadership. Just on that particular issue ` I mean, we've had the Oranga Tamariki demonstration this week. We've had the Ihumatao. And we've had the Maori Party coming out and saying, 'Look, we want to reset for 2020.' Is that right, Andrea? They're looking` They're considering it? I mean, they're certainly... These two issues are certainly flashpoints. It's important not to confuse them. Um, but I think there's definitely motivation. What you said about the generation ` I think lots of young Maori are dissatisfied with the pace of change and what's been achieved so far. Millennial generation is now much more politically active. So I think if the Maori Party wanted to revitalise, this could be the issue, but whether that's possible in such a short time frame, and whether those young voices that we're hearing at the moment want to be associated with the Maori Party,... Or something different, yeah. ...it could potentially be a new vehicle. OK. So, the Prime Minister was in Tokelau this week, and so Simon Bridges used that vacuum of just her being here to jump in and call her a 'part-time prime minister'. Is that warranted, Janet? It was a dog whistle to his core constituency, definitely. I think it was made worse by Robertson's reply in his defence of her, and that happens constantly within Labour. They're treating her as a young leader when, in fact, she's a leader that is able to stand on her own two feet. It's patronising towards her, and I don't think it does her any service at all, frankly. I mean, did you interpret it as a sexist comment? No, I didn't. I interpreted it as politics and as the fisticuffs of politics. It was... It was ill-advised... Bridges has just come out of his own conference. He was, you know... You're a feather duster one day and a rooster the next; he was definitely in rooster mode. But, you know, he overplayed the hand, but the hand was again overplayed by Robertson. I wonder, though, if he deliberately set the trap and Grant Robertson walked into it. OK. Straight into it. Yeah. Because he... Possibly. It wasn't a sexist remark, but it does kind of play to that narrative that Labour are a bit sensitive about this issue, and it does really annoy people when they... people are being accused of being sexist towards Jacinda Ardern. And so I wonder if it was a deliberate strategy on National's part. Yes, it could be. But it really was fascinating, because I thought it was... I mean, it was a ridiculously stupid thing to say, but he was... picking a prin` pricking a pin in this international... Yeah. ...image that she's built up. And if you look at the coverage of Jacinda in the last week internationally, the issues of Oranga Tamariki and Ihumatao have played really` There were articles in the Japan Times, the New York Times... The Guardian. And The Guardian, yeah. And it is putting a dent in that international image that she's created. So the cover on Vogue's not going to cover over all those crises. Well, international media is very good at building people up, and they did build up her profile. But they're also very good at taking it down. I just wanna say this ` last time I checked, the folks of Tokelau were as much New Zealanders as the people of Eketahuna. All right, one last quick issue. Janet, this week, it came out that AUT scrapped a Tiananmen Square event on its campus ` supposedly or allegedly because of Chinese government pressure. Do you believe that? Yes, I do. Why? They withdrew the event itself because of a 'booking issue', which I don't believe for one moment. I think, clearly, the chancellor came under pressure; he bowed to that pressure, and he decided that they weren't going to have that event. Subsequent emails which have since been published show the cosy little relationship that the Chinese consulate has with AUT and the top brass. So is this growing influence of China, or is it just the dollars speaking, do you think? I mean, I think you could interpret it as growing Chinese influence, but I think it was the dollars speaking. If you look at the international students that AUT have, Chinese make up 40% of them, and I think it's something like 20% of their revenue. So, you know, money does talk, and he's probably protecting that interest without really appreciating the wider ramifications, which were astonishing. Well, I'm gonna have to leave it there for the panel. Thank you very much for your time ` Andrea, Janet and Shane. Jacinda Ardern and Winston Peters were overseas this week, as we said, but we still had more than our fair share of memorable moments in the chamber. So here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Parliament. FINN HOGAN: Well, perhaps because she'll soon be retired, Amy Adams was quick to draw the speaker's ire this week. Member will resume her seat. Amy Adams ` um, I... You are a senior member and a retiring member and one who generally behaves very well. Having commentaries on my rulings from you is not helpful. However, Mr Mallard did somewhat trip himself up soon after delivering the signature scolding. Paula Bennett` Uh, sorry, a point of order. (RAUCOUS LAUGHTER) That's` That's a mistake I shouldn't have made. But the House also had sombre moments, as the End Of Life Choice Act took another step towards becoming law and once again evoked scenes of raw emotion. And can I say, having recently been through an experience of a family member (VOICE BREAKS) who had a terminal illness,... providing choice... and providing an opportunity for people who are living with a terminal illness to actually take back some control of their lives when they have none I think is incredibly empowering. And that's all from us for now. Don't forget, you can catch the programme as a podcast on iTunes, Google or Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. But thank you for watching, and we will see you again next weekend. Captions by Ella Wheeler, Alex Walker and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019