(CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Hello, Kiwis. I'm Paddy Gower and I have got issues. On this show we investigate issues big and small that are important to all of us. Tonight, Posie Parker's visit started a storm of hatred. Alice Wilkins investigates why we can't talk about transgender people without losing our shit. And siren battles in Wellington are keeping locals awake at night. Karen O'Leary goes undercover to try to keep the peace. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) Tonight my issue is with the transgender 'debate' in this country. But it's not really a debate, though, is it? It's an ugly, toxic shouting match where we don't actually learn anything. Transgender people and their supporters have become the target of such vitriol, death threats and hate. And anyone who doesn't get it, who has questions and who makes mistakes in the process, risks getting shut down and cancelled. Well, tonight I say it's time to calm the farm. So tonight, we are going to ask questions. We're going to have an open conversation and we are going to learn a hell of a lot. And we're only going to mention Posie Parker once, and I already did that just then. (LAUGHTER) Now, at the heart of this are real people, real families, grappling with stuff that is incredibly complex and can be insanely difficult. We've got to be able to talk about it. This is an issue for all of us. And tonight I'm joined by my very good friend, Newshub journalist Alice Wilkins, who's been investigating this for us. And speaking of investigating, we've got our community investigator, Karen O'Leary. And of course, our news deskers— - (CLICKS TONGUE) - ... Eli Matthewson and Courtney Dawson. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Are we really not gonna talk about Posie Parker cos didn't her whole tomato juice tiki tour kind of kick this off? - Thanks, Eli. You've mentioned her twice now. (LAUGHTER) OK, Alice, it's good to have you here. And man, oh, man — it has been one hell of a journey to investigate this story, hasn't it? - Oh, Paddy. We would be lying if we said that this had been really easy. It's actually been a really, really hard story to tell. But because of what 2023 has, sort of, thrown up, a lot of people in the transgender community are really worried about sticking their heads up because of the hate that they're getting back because of it. And some people have actually backed out because of personal safety concerns. But this is a really, really important conversation. And we met someone who has been extra brave, not only because she's spoken to us, but also because she's been so open about all of it. And her name is Sammy. (SOMBRE MUSIC) - I just felt like an imposter. I felt like an imposter in your own skin. And I got really good at hiding how I felt. - What is that discomfort feeling like? - I was completely detached from what I was seeing and who I was to who I actually am inside. So for me, I'm just trying to make my outsides mirror who I really feel like I am on the inside. My 15-year-old self would just be very happy. - When did you first know that you were trans? - I mean, I remember watching this YouTuber. In her video, she was talking about how she was trans and something that she was doing, and I was like, 'Oh my God'. A huge weight lifted off my shoulder because I finally had clarity on... the way I felt. - Sammy, who's 22, says it explained the anger, anxiety and extreme self-consciousness she had felt since she was little. - I remember going down the Barbie aisle at the Warehouse and I would be— always so excited. I mean, hello. (LAUGHS) But, like, riddled with fear. I couldn't go, 'Oh, I love that.' I could never really enjoy something because I was so scared of what people around me would say. - You were 15 when you realised. - Mm-hm. Yeah. You know, it was the heavy thoughts of like... What am I going to do? You know? Do I remain who I am because it fits in with how everyone else would like it, or do I live for myself? - She finally confided in her doctor and asked him to tell her parents. - I couldn't do it. I had ulcers in my mouth. My hair was falling out. I was so incredibly thin. I think I probably was worried more about what my dad might think, you know? Being a typical New Zealand bloke. I mean, it took him, you know, a good minute to get his head around it, but he was amazing. I know he was, like, my biggest supporter. Like, he would talk his client's ears off about me. Especially when I probably brung social media into it and started documenting it. (TIKTOK THEME TUNE) - # The man that I love sat me down last night and he told me that it's over. Dumb decision. # - Sammy started hormone treatment when she was 17 and recently has had surgery to create a more feminine shape. She posts stories about her transition and plans for gender affirming genital surgery. Why do you want people to be able to get more information about trans people? - I think there's so much importance for people like myself online at the moment, just because... you've seen what is also being thrown in the media. (PROTESTERS SHOUT) - (POSIE SHOUTS INDISTINCTLY) - It all changed with the arrival of Posie Parker. - I get hate every day online, still now. The stuff I see; it's like I just have to skip sometimes because it just eats too much of my soul. For people that sit there and think this is such a... A fad or a trend, it's like... Open your eyes just a little bit more to realise how much someone's taking on just by transitioning, how brave they're being, by telling their closest family members that they love. (SOMBRE MUSIC) - Last year, Sammy lost one of those people herself. Her dad had been fighting a battle with cancer. - I know he left this planet with seeing me the happiest I ever was. He was very proud of, like... The person I became. Yeah. I couldn't have asked for a better dad. Yeah. - I couldn't have asked for a better girl. Just going from... A 17-year-old pimply boy to this beautiful woman you see now. And I just think, 'Gosh.' 'How can anybody deny who she is?' - Did she say anything to you growing up that you thought was an indication? - (LAUGHS) She probably wouldn't want me to say it, but she did want to cut it off at one point. She said, 'I just want to cut it off.' And I had to say, 'No, we can't do that.' I could always tell there was something going on, but I just thought, 'Right, we'll just wait and see'. Cos you don't really wanna... direct them anyway. - What do you say to people who say that this is a choice? - Nobody chooses this life. You don't choose to go through the heartache and just hating yourself. TEARFULLY: Yeah, no. She's just been a great kid, right from the word go. And just all the crap that she's had to put up with, you know? - What would your husband say about Sammy? - TEARFULLY: Um... Just to keep on going on. Yeah. He'd just be so proud. (SOMBRE MUSIC) (APPLAUSE) - Wow. What an incredible, incredible family they are. - Yeah. So Sammy has been incredibly brave in sharing that. But also, Donna and Sammy's dad have been really, really brave in this journey. Sammy said that before she came out to them, they'd never had an interaction with someone who was transgender. - Wow. - So they've just followed her lead every step of the way through this. Now, some of this is actually really personal medical stuff that Sammy is sharing. She's sharing it because she wants to help. She wants people to have information about it. But surgery is also not for everyone. It is, however, really important to Sammy that she has gender affirming genital surgery. - Yeah. I mean, isn't it just so sad that more and more we live in a society where people just can't be who they are and be happy with that without fear of— of being in danger or being really, really hassled. It's horrible. - Yeah. Well, tonight we're gonna go really, really deep on this, actually. We're gonna meet a trans woman who is struggling right now. And we're also going to meet the only surgeon in New Zealand who is doing gender affirming surgery. And we're going to talk frankly about puberty blockers. But first, Karen— and I shudder to ask this — What have you been investigating this week? (LAUGHTER) - (YELLS LOUDLY) (LAUGHTER) Well, Paddy. Look, you strike me as somewhat of a Celine Dion fan. Am I right? He looks like a Celine Dion. - He does to me. - Yeah, kind of. - OK. In that case, have you ever heard Celine Dion - her heart will go on - being played quite loud, maybe on a Friday or a Saturday night? - Yes, around my neighbourhood. I think you're talking about these siren kind of battles. - Exactly. Siren battles. So obviously, the mayor of Porirua, Anita Baker, she's not overly enthusiastic about these battles. So I went to chat to her about what she needed me to do. Sirens. There's no denying they can make a pretty annoying sound. (VOICE DROWNED OUT BY SIREN) Sorry. I'm here in Porirua, and the people of Porirua are worried that these siren gangs are 'Pori-ruining' their vibe. (SIRENS BLARE) - SPEAKERS BLAST: # Yeah, big dreams. # - And one person who'd like things to be a little bit quieter, is their mayor, Anita Baker. I'm off to find her. (SIRENS BLARE) Obviously you're aware of the reason that I'm here, and that is to talk about these so-called siren gangs. - I wouldn't call them a gang. So, they're not a gang. They're a group of enthusiasts who love loud music and playing their music, obviously, with their subwoofers and all their different sirens they put in their cars. So I would love the noise level to come down, sort of from nine, ten o'clock. Happy for them to make their noise during the day. But yeah. Just for those people that like to sleep. What frustrates me is they only play part of the song, so you'll get half of the Celine Dion song. - So you're saying half a song of Celon is not enough. - The people who are listening would quite like the whole song rather than half a song. It's a screeching noise half the time. The Celine Dion song doesn't come out like on a normal record player, so it's screechy. - # Any— # (SIREN BLARES) - If you were going to be in a siren brigade, what— what would be your go to song? Do you think? - (EXHALES) I do like loud music. - Yeah. - So, um... - Heavy metal. - Yeah. I don't mind some heavy metal. So... - Guns N Roses? - Yeah. Guns N Roses is good. - # Whoa-oh-oh! # - # Sweet child of mine. # Run it with me. Yeah. - I do. - No, you're not going to sing it. - You want me to sing it? No. - Would you consider utilising some of the ratepayers money to build a really big soundproof car park? - Absolutely not. Not a dime. Sorry. - No, not that? - That just has to stick on the infrastructure, the harbour, children and young people. If they want to make the noise, we have to find some time for them. It's the time. - So, put a bit of a cap on it. - I would love that to happen. - Do you think often they wear caps? - Beanies, probably. - Oh, right. Yep. So, I'm hearing what Anita Baker's saying loud and clear in her slightly high-pitched voice. But I'm about to hit the streets of Porirua to find out what the people think. We're doing a story about siren gangs. Have you heard of these things? - Aha. Yes, I have. - Aha. - I've heard them. Yes. - Some of it's not too bad. Some of it is ridiculous. - They could use some better quality speakers. - What I would actually like to see is that they finish a whole song. - What about if they did it in a field far, far away? - Well, if the cows don't mind. - What song would you play as your number one siren song? - Oh, wow... - Pick one. - Maybe all the single ladies. - Do you like Celine Dion? - Yeah. She's all right. - Do you know any of your songs? - No. (CHUCKLES) OK, I'll let you get back to your nice lunch, now. Can I have one of your chips? - Go hard. - Please? Thanks. That's great. Thank you. See you, Rueben. - Sweet. Later. - OK. These people really need my help. But if I'm going to help stop these sirens, I need to understand why the siren gangs do what they do. So I'm gonna go undercover to join one. They won't even hear me coming. Actually, they will hear me coming. That's kind of the point. Oh. (SIREN BLARES) THROUGH LOUDSPEAKER: # Once more you open... Whoa. - # ... the door. # (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Obviously, my— my single person siren battle there, you know, it wasn't the real thing. It was just me by myself making noise in a carpark. (LAUGHTER) So I really needed to go to the real thing and I had to— I thought the best way to do this was obviously, again, to go undercover. - Undercover. - Get to a real— - Another undercover investigation. I look forward to seeing yet another one of these as she tries to infiltrate a siren battle. And Alice meets a trans woman waiting years for surgery. Why it might be decades before she gets it. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Nau mai, hoki mai. Welcome back, Kiwis. And if this next sentence is challenging for you, then you need to keep watching. We are about to meet a trans woman who does not like the sight of her own penis. But first... I'm not the only one in New Zealand that has issues, am I, Eli? - No, not at all, Paddy. That's why there's a whole segment called New Zealand Has Issues. (APPLAUSE) - Well, it's been a massive week for New Zealand as the Prime Minister headed out on his first big overseas trip. - Yeah, he's been in China and while he's been there, he's been given some of the most important jobs. - The Prime Minister will be showcasing his chef-ing skills, jumping on the barbecue to cook for the Chinese ski team. - Wow. An international diplomacy barbecue on the side of a snowy mountain? It doesn't get more high 'steaks' than that. - Indeed. (AUDIENCE LAUGH, BOO) Hipkins is planning to feed the Chinese ski team what his own MPs have been feeding him — a lovely, humble pie. - Meanwhile, over at National, Chris Luxon is carrying on the time honoured tradition of stealing lines from popular culture. This time it's Austin Powers. - Under a national government, New Zealand will rediscover its mojo. (LAUGHTER) - And it's going to cost (IMITATES DR EVIL) one million dollars. - It's been an exciting week for National. This is the first time in 20 years that they have candidates for the Maori seats. - This is a really proud day for us because it's— for National with two wahine toa. - Well, it is pretty exciting to have two girls at your party. - Mm-hm. (LAUGHTER) Now, Chris Luxon is the master of mass appeal. He's appealing to left-leaning voters by using te reo, and he's appealing to right-leaning voters by absolutely butchering the pronunciation. - Luxon had plenty of to celebrate this weekend with his favourite Crusaders coming away with the win over the weekend. - Even though the team didn't exist until he was 26. (LAUGHTER) - Oh... - Oh, no. With a scrub like this, he might never get to achieve his dream — to one day cook barbecue for the Chinese ski team. - Such a shame. To be fair to Luxon, he actually meant to say 'buoy'. he was working as a lifeguard at the time. (LAUGHTER) - But there is actually one guy Luxon has been a fan of since he was a boy — And that's you! Back to you, Paddy G. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Yes. Some very good action. Thank you very much, you two. Now, Alice, we met Sammy earlier, who is doing amazingly well. It's still a struggle, though, but there are other people like her for who it's a real struggle, aren't there? - Yeah. So, Sammy— some, like Sammy, some people can afford to pay— save up and pay for their own surgery. Many of them travel overseas and have it done privately, but that can cost more than $30,000. - Whoa. - Obviously, not everyone can afford to pay for that, and not everyone has the means to do that. Some people can access hormones quite easily, but surgery, there can be a really long wait time for them and it has an impact on their lives every single day. And that's exactly what Ella is facing. (CURIOUS MUSIC) - What I knew at 16 was that something wasn't right. I'm not a guy. But what came after that was the denial phase. Oh, you can't change your gender. I'll just be a man in a dress. And... I was a little— really transphobic to myself. (SIGHS) I just tried to talk myself out of it. Uh... - ALICE: Do you want to just tell me where we're going and what you are doing today, Ella? - Well, I'm just going to my doctor's. Talk about hormones. - What have you noticed since you've been taking these? - Start with the obvious of growing breasts. (CHUCKLES) My skin's gotten softer. Some people say my features have gotten softer as well. I look more feminine. It feels good. Especially when it's your masculine body that's causing you discomfort. - 'Ella has been using oestrogen hormones since she was 19.' - The hormones that we're talking about with gender affirming hormone therapy are what we call the sex hormones. So that would be oestrogen or testosterone. And all of us have got those hormones in our body, but just a kind of different balance, you know. Have more of one than the other. So it's kind of about redressing that balance to— to... to be more in line with what people's gender identity is. - Are they reversible? - They have irreversible effects. People really need to understand what the permanent changes are before they start. It really is making a difference for people's lives in their kind of— their confidence, and they're more relaxed and just feeling more comfortable in who they are. - Did I have my script? That might help. (LAUGHS) Might help. - But for Ella, the hormones can only take her so far. It's really important to her to have surgery. She's on the waitlist. Only nine people had it publicly funded last year, and there are currently more than 400 in the queue. - The gender reassignment surgery, The only thing I know of is that I'm on the list. I'm more likely to have to pay for it out of pocket and get it done myself than I will get it publicly funded at the rate things seem to be going. - Why is surgery so important to you? - It's the part that I hate the most— is my genitalia. It's the most masculine part of me, and I... it just makes me sick sometimes. Some days it's easier to deal with. Some days it's impossible. The impossible days I just curl up in bed and forget about life. - Sometimes transgender people have what's called gender incongruence or dysphoria. - There are, sort of, two main sources of dysphoria, and one is the discomfort you feel with your own body. And then the other one is the discomfort you feel when other people don't see you for who you are. Most people will be like, you know, I wash my body. I look in the mirror to check on things. But actually I would avoid looking at myself. Because in my mind, I am male or female or non-binary. And then when I see myself, it can be really shocking and upsetting because that body just does not match the— who that person is. (PAPER BAG RUSTLES) Surgery could be years, possibly decades away. So while Ella waits, patches are all she's got. - I got told to put it on the abdomen by my endocrinologist, but... - Mm-hm. You're kind of hoping to get a bit more clarity about a surgery timeline. - Mm-hm. - Do you have any? - No. Uh... No, no, no. I can't blame the doctor. She doesn't have any either. Uh... (EXHALES) I'm a bit jaded about it all, to be honest. (INHALES) What more can I say about that? I don't know when I'll be seen. For some transgender people, the weight and the mental strain is just too much for them. And I feel like the delay could cost people their lives. (SOMBRE MUSIC) (APPLAUSE) - Whoa. Pretty full on. - Yeah, Paddy. Some pretty chilling stuff there from Ella. And this is a very real feeling that she lives with every day. She says that will only go away for her once she has surgery. - Yeah, like for me, personally, as someone who definitely identifies as a female, but could also be described as a butch lesbian, you know, I've had my own battles with having a body that could be considered as very feminine and curvaceous, but at least my body parts match my gender. So to have body parts that don't even match who you are must just be so, so hard. - Yes. There's only one surgeon in New Zealand who can do that kind of gender affirming surgery, and she will do her first ever interview with us later on tonight. - Hey, Paddy. I actually think it could be time for you to transition into the next segment of the show. (LAUGHTER) - Yeah. That's good, because I'm more than ready to affirm that this is my own program. And now is the time when I find something or someone that doesn't worry me out there. It's time for No Issues. (APPLAUSE) Tonight I've got no issues with Grant and Marilyn Nelson of Christchurch. They are running a campaign to try and claw back some of the most lazily, easily-earned cash that has ever been made since 3000 BC in Mesopotamia when money was invented. I'm talking about a cash downpour of biblical proportions, and it actually happened here in New Zealand in 2020. It was called the wage subsidy. Nearly $20b went out and a lot of it, of course, went to save companies that really needed it. But now Grant and Marilyn have estimated that $10b, half of it, needs to be paid back. This is a moral issue. They are saying a lot of this money was paid out to big companies who later earned massive profits and it turns out that they didn't need our taxpayer money, my money and your money. Now, each of us will be paying thousands of dollars in extra taxes to pay this back for generations. This really matters. But nobody is chasing this cash. That's because annual profit, a business model made after Covid, does not affect the fact that they were eligible when they applied. So technically, this means they don't have to give it back, so nobody is bothering to chase it. But did we really try absolutely everything or did we just give up? I reckon we gave up. Well, Grant and Marilyn refuse to give up. They reckon if a beneficiary rips us off, we go after them. And I say that these businesses are basically ram-raided us and left us to clean up the mess and pay for the damage. Grant and Marilyn are rich. They are self-made entrepreneurs who started a business out of their garage, but now they are giving away their money to try and get ours back. And for me, that makes them Kiwi heroes. And that's why I've got no issues with Grant and Marilyn Nelson of Christchurch. (APPLAUSE) Coming up — exactly how does gender affirming genital surgery work? I met at the only doctor in New Zealand who does it. And Karen goes undercover to ask very nicely if the siren battlers could possibly turn it down and finish up early. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) (APPLAUSE) - Welcome back, Kiwis. Now if you are unsure about the difference between sex and gender, what non-binary or intersex means, well, I'm about to clear it up for you. But first, Karen, you have had a sensational hit rate so far in solving things. But something tells me there is no way that you will ever solve annoying siren battles. - Well, first and foremost, I really appreciate your support, Paddy (!) (LAUGHTER) Um, that's very kind of you. Now, look, as an investigative— community investigator, I really value going undercover, obviously. - I know you do. - Yeah, well, I actually think I'm improving. Like, I did just go into the undercover carpark that first time. - You're doing it a lot. - This time, I've even got an undercover outfit, which I've used to infiltrate a real-life siren battle. (SIRENS BLARE) YELLS: Now, before I sound the alarm on these siren gangs, I need to know how they work. Not the sirens themselves — they work by electricity, I already know how that works. But the gangs themselves. So I've snuck in undercover. Well, no one's going to notice except there's a camera guy and someone else. (RAP MUSIC BLASTS) Turns out I didn't have to go undercover at all. These guys were happy to hang out, even if it was a bit hard to hear each other. YELLS: Are you having a good time or a stink time? - What? (MUSIC BLARES) - I think it's this car here against— against that other car. But, I mean, I could help them park. I don't know if they need help. Make sure I'm saying your name right again. - Biondi. Like Beyonce, but with a D, no pun intended, all right? (LAUGHS) Is your name Karen? - Yeah. I know, terrible name. - Say, yeah. - Did you say sad? - No, no, no. I was like, yeah. - Tell me, like, you know, in layman's terms, what is a siren battle? - Oh, cool. Thanks. First of all, before we start, I just want to give a shout out to the originators, which is from Auckland. - # Imma king, Imma Imma king, Imma king. # Imma Imma king, Imma Imma king, Imma king. - Siren battles just um.. I guess growing up, we used to tune a lot of sounds with our— uh, the older generation. So back then, there used to be subs. (SUBWOOFER BOOMS) And the kids got into it. And I guess siren battles is just an expression of love for sound. - And how exactly does a siren battle work? - So it's different wherever you're from. We're from Wellington, so we run three rounds. First round is clearness. It's not how loud it is, it's just how clear and clean the sound is. (RNB BALLAD PLAYS) Second round is loud and clear. - # Whenever I'm afraid. # - And then if they— if it's a draw, we'll run a drown out, which is the third and final round. That's the fun one. - Yeah. (MUSIC BLASTS) How do you become a judge for a siren battle? - A judge, I think, is someone with experience. So today, two representatives from each district pick someone, I guess, to judge. I was judging on behalf of Lower Hutt because I'm not with a crew, so I'm sort of just... - Impartial. - Yes. Yes. So there's no, um... - Is that true, though? - Hey, man. Hey. We're in Porirua, so relax. - We're on the same team — no team. - Yeah. But we don't— you know, we're Caucasians, so. Nah, I'm kidding. ('FREAKS' BY SAVAGE) - Some of the people out there are not having a great time, some people in the neighbourhood. What would you say to them? - So if there's a tangi on or something, we'll make sure that we know, hey, no switching up at this road. That's how we do it in Lower Hutt. We have a good relationship in Lower Hutt with our police, and they give us a little time frame to sort of work with. It is a bit of a struggle out here in Porirua. I guess they're just a different breed. (HIP HOP MUSIC PLAYS) With a structured battle like this, it is capped. So right now it's, like, after the battle, that's done. So whoever does whatever they do after, that's on them. (HIP HOP MUSIC PLAYS) (APPLAUSE) - That was absolutely awesome, Karen. And I hear these guys around the Hutt Valley, and I must admit, until I watched that, I just thought it was bloody strange and pretty damn annoying. - Yeah, but look, it's actually really, really fun. But unfortunately, just means that my issue just got harder because I've got to work out how to solve it without just shutting down this really fun community event. - Yeah, I think this is the unsolvable one for you, finally. - Wait and see. - Now back to our transgender investigation. It's time to get behind the issue. (APPLAUSE) So the first thing to be clear on is sex and gender are different. Sex is anatomy — it's what you were born with. Gender, on the other hand, is what you identify as, who you are. This is where we get trans women and trans men, people who are assumed to be one gender at birth because of their sex, but are actually another. Then there are non-binary people — trans people who aren't just men and women. They might be both, or neither, or another gender altogether. Then there are cisgender women and men. In case you're wondering, cis is a Latin term that is the opposite of trans. So cisgender people's gender is the same as the sex when they were born. Most people are cis. Around 0.8% of Kiwis identify as trans. Now, being transgender has been around as long as there has been people. Being trans or non-binary looks and means different things in different cultures. For example, fa'afafine in Samoan culture, or irawhiti in Maori. You might have also heard the term intersex. People who are intersex are actually born with ambiguous genitalia. Their bodies don't fit the typical definitions of either sex. And then there is a person's sexual orientation or sexuality — straight, gay, bi, etc. This just refers to the gender, or genders, that you are attracted to. And from the transgender community, some simple advice. Don't deadname people — don't call them by their past name. Use the name that they currently use and use the pronouns that people currently use — he, she, him, her, they or them. It makes a difference to them. And if you're not sure what to say, just ask. Don't be afraid to mess up. People appreciate your effort and care. Now, coming up — can Karen, bring peace between a mayor and the people who just want to have fun out there? And I meet the only surgeon in the country who can perform gender-affirming genital surgery. Why she's speaking out now for the first time. (APPLAUSE) We can help make your home healthier for less. Three-M Window Insulator Kit, fifteen fifteen. DampRid Refillable Moisture Absorber, seven ninety. Where you find a competitor's lower price on the same stocked item, we'll beat it by 15 percent. ♪ Bunnings Warehouse ♪ Lowest prices are just the beginning. (APPLAUSE) Nau mai hoki mai. Welcome back, Kiwis. Now, I'm about to introduce you to the only person in this country who does what we used to call sex change surgery. You'll be amazed by how frankly she talks. But if we've got issues now, then it certainly used to be much better back in the day, didn't it, Eli? - No way, Paddy. If anything, things were much worse before. It's time for our new segment — The Past Has Issues. - It's wind back the clock because 12 years ago this week was when we witnessed the arrival of the biggest celebrity Aotearoa has ever seen. - The world's new favourite penguin who veered so far off course, he popped up on the wrong continent. - Sad news for the world's previous favourite penguin, Danny DeVito. He had a long journey here and immediately tried some of our local delicacies. - Some 2000 miles from its home in Antarctica. The lost and hungry bird ate more than 6.5 pounds of wet sand, thinking it was snow. - Poor little guy. And after removing the 6.5 pounds of sand, Happy Feet was given the correct food for a penguin — 6.5 pounds of Bluebird chips. - Of course. Now, not everyone was a fan of the little guy. - Biologist Dr Wayne Linklater has quite a different take on Happy Feet. - He should have been euthanised. - Did we hear that correctly? - He should have been euthanised. - Holy, it's a bit extreme, Wayne. Was it your sand that he ate? But after 3.5 months on our shores and a couple of surgeries, Happy Feet was ready to go home. - Happy Feet didn't quite seem to know what to do as he edged out of his cage, but a nudge from one of his handlers sent him sliding down a specifically-constructed ramp and into the surf. - You know, the fact that they didn't make him walk off a tiny little plank was really a wasted opportunity. - Sorry. We've actually made a mistake there. We played that clip without Happy Feet's microphone on. Here it is again. - No, no, no, no. I can't swim. I can't swim. - He eventually got back to Antarctica safely, and when he saw his penguin mates, they were like, 'Where have you been?' And he was like, nowhere. Definitely didn't eat any sand. - And after caring for him for three months, Wellington Zoo had a special message for him. - I'll miss you. And don't come back. Do not come back. - Thankfully, he never did come back. And if you're wondering how Happy Feet is doing today, just google the life expectancy of penguins. - He's probably dead, and so is this segment. Back to you, Paddy. (APPLAUSE) - A lot of build up for a very sad, sad ending. Thank you, you two. All right. Now, tonight, Alice has spoken to two trans women. There are also trans men out there. And what they have to do is stuff like bind, that is literally bind themselves every day so that they are flat-chested. It's very painful. The solution to this is surgery, what's called top surgery. Then there is what's called bottom surgery to change the genitals. Now, remember, there are 400 people on the waiting list for this, and only nine surgeries were done last year. And only one surgeon in New Zealand can do this — one. Her name is Rita Yang. She has never spoken publicly before. Last night, she did. This is incredibly major surgery. What happens when they wake up? How do they react, your patients? - Oh, I mean, it's— I wish you were you know, if... (LAUGHS) It's, um, just the sheer joy of finally, you know, having this last piece of a puzzle that kind of fall into place for them. And we're not unfamiliar in this hospital to be witnessing, you know, tears of joy and just the elections and the relief, the relief of not having to hide your body and to be able to just kind of get on with your life. Just for a young trans guy, you know, to be able to just get on with your life and that's big for them. - So when someone sits down in here, they know what they want and what they need. - Yes. - They really know. - Yes. Bear in mind, Paddy, that older patients who come through this door to see me have already been through a very long journey of initial diagnosis. They've been through a very long, comprehensive assessment process. And because of the hormone treatment that they have had for years, you know, they already long lived in their gender identity, being accepted as their gender identity by the time they present to a reconstructive surgeon's office, often it's the answer is very crystal clear, you know? Say for a trans man, what they really, really would want is to be able to go out there and enjoy the next summer by the beach without having to hide their body and wear these like, binders and things like that, isn't it? So for a trans woman, sometimes a one-hour operation that shaved down their Adam's apple just means that they no longer have to always hide behind scarves and things like that for them. So it just provides that next level of ease and comfort and freedom of living that I think all of us deserve. So, yeah. - Do we need more of these operations done to help the kind of people that you help in this office? - I believe so. We are seeing more patients entering gender service and so long term I am projecting that potentially more clients will require gender affirmation genital surgeries. - Do we need more of you? Basically. - Yes. (LAUGHS) Yes. That's the— Yeah absolutely. - How does that feel for you personally, outside of the surgery and everything? When you do see one of your patients just living their life with a new gender? - For me, when I see a patient who come through the other end of their reconstructions and is able to get on with their lives and, you know, to me, that just means that our society is able to see them beyond just their gender identity, see them as just you and me, you know? As a journalist, as a doctor, as a teacher and whatnot. So they are no longer defined by just one thing. It's a major, you know? We're supposed to be unbiased, but you can't help but be very moved by it too. Yeah. - It's taken a lot for me to get you to do this interview. - Yes. - You know, you really haven't wanted to do this interview. Why? Why are you doing it? - Well, I'm doing this because I have come to the realisation that no matter how transformational reconstructive surgeries are, the biggest factor for my patients' well-being lies in the society's acceptance. (APPLAUSE) - Remarkable person. And the reason that she did that interview, she told me, was to try and normalise this, to talk about it and normalise it. - Yeah, and Paddy, she says that there needs to be societal acceptance for people to be able to live their lives fully. - Sure. And later on tonight, we're going to find out what puberty blockers are. But first, Karen, I'm really, really interested to see how you're going to solve the siren issue. - I'm gonna solve it by being a really good investigator who gets to the bottom of problems and then finds out the best way to fix them. OK, I want these siren enthusiasts to have their fun, but I want Anita Baker to be having a nice sleep at night, on a Friday, Saturday night. So I had to reach middle ground and keep everyone happy. And that's pretty much what I did. So, Anita, it's been a while since I talk to you, like, how's life been going for you? - Oh, pretty tough. Last Friday night they had a huge siren battle. Still going at 11.30-12.00 at night. So I'm a bit grumpy at the moment. - I know you just thought we were just going for a nice Friday night drive, but I've actually organised for us to go to an actual siren battle in Lower Hutt. - Oh, OK. - So, I mean, are you keen? - I'm keen. - What about some of these? - Ooh, yes. What are they? - Well, you were very keen. You didn't know what they were. - They look like lollies. - No, they're earplugs. - Oh. I thought you were going to give me a treat. - I thought you thought they were drugs. (MUSIC BLASTS) - The size of those speakers is just unbelievable. - They're the ones that do the battles. (MUSIC BLARES) - Well, that's awfully noisy. - Sorry? I can't hear you. - That's awfully noisy. I can see why my residents get upset. And I understand why these people are coming because it actually is quite fun. - We nailed that. Yeah, no, sorry about that. - Hello, I'm Anita. - Anita. - Nice to meet you. - You're on the wrong side of town, Anita. - I know. - I'm kidding. - Maybe we can come to some sort of solution, some common ground that means everyone's happy. What do you think? - Absolutely. From what we've seen so far, I can understand why you do it. I'd just like you all to stop at 10 o'clock. - What do you say to that, Biondi? I think it's just one of those things where I think the leaders have to set that example for the young ones. - Is there any way, as part of the siren battle that's happening tonight or just any time, even now, I could get you to play Sweet Child O' Mine by Guns N Roses, the whole song? - I reckon your best bet is, see that big siren there on top of that van? Give them a shout, I reckon go for that one. - I'm gonna go over there right now. - And they're from Porirua. - Oh, we'll go talk to them. - Yeah. # She's got a smile that it seems to me # Reminds me of childhood memories - # Memories. # And any ... (MUMBLES) bright blue sky You love this one, eh? Nah? (SINGS) We had a great time at the siren battle, although we were the only ones there with a thermos full of tea. So, Anita, I mean, we put in a siren battle. Do you think we got anywhere? - I think I did. I understand why they're doing it. I've spoken to the groups from Porirua who are going to talk to the boys who are going after 10pm, but I now know the noise my residents are suffering from. - Sorry, what was that? - Exactly. Without you, it wouldn't happen. Thank you. - Happy days. (APPLAUSE) I mean, you can't argue with Anita's last line, basically saying, 'Karen, you've done it again.' Solved the problem. - Yeah. So I'm not going to be annoyed by these things ever again? - Well, it kind of depends on what kind of annoys you, really, doesn't it? - Well, quite a lot annoys me, but that's a whole other issue. - And remember, if you've got an issue, I've got an issue. Get in touch with us — issues@paddygower.co.nz and I will come and help you out. - Yes, please do. And coming up, puberty blockers. Are they safe? Are they reversible? They've effectively been banned in the United Kingdom. So what are we doing here? (APPLAUSE) - Welcome back, Kiwis. Now there is one part of the transgender world that causes more debate than just about any other. They are called puberty blockers. - Puberty blocker use has ramped up in the past ten years. In 2010, there were 137 young people using them, and it's gone up every year since. Last year, 771 people were on them Before September last year, the Ministry of Health had said this about puberty blockers on its website. But in September last year, they quietly changed it, taking out the part that says safe and fully reversible. It's a big debate. So I went to find out what puberty blockers are all about. - Puberty blockers are a medication that... Are used to just pause puberty. They can't turn it backwards, so they can't reverse changes that they've already happened. But absolutely, they can just pause things. So this, if you imagine, if... physical changes that are causing distress are occurring by stopping those can be incredibly beneficial on a physical level and on a psychological level. But if you were to stop those puberty blockers, puberty would just kick in again. - Auckland paediatrician Dr Rachel Johnson is currently seeing a variety of patients from young children to people in their 20s. - You know, over ten years of following young people who are on blockers, I do think that accessing puberty blockers in the context of the way that young people can in New Zealand is really appropriate. They're not some universal treatment for every trans youth. That's always a really carefully considered decision whether, you know, the benefits outweigh any potential risks. - Are they safe and reversible? - I would absolutely say in the years of experience of using blockers and based on the worldwide evidence that they are a safe and reversible medication. - But overseas, there isn't consensus on the evidence. Earlier this month, the UK put a stop on virtually all doctors being able to prescribe puberty blockers. Now children can only access them if they're part of clinical research. The NHS decision came after a high profile legal case against the Tavistock Centre by a 24-year-old woman who was given puberty blockers as a teenager but later regretted her transition. And a government review which found gaps in the evidence around the drugs. - There's nothing that exists here in Australia or New Zealand to demonstrate more benefit than exists overseas. So the fact that the UK is now saying this can only be done as part of research, you know, it demonstrates that that research still needs to happen. - Dr Dylan Wilson is a paediatrician in Australia who has concerns about puberty blockers. - Rather than allow them to explore, it does the opposite. It fixes them into a pathway that they find very hard to get out of because they don't have the ability to say, 'Actually, this is wrong for me.' - Are we not giving children enough credit? Do you think that some children really know themselves well? - I still don't believe a child who's precocious, articulate, hugely intelligent, and... is absolutely adamant and convinced that they are who they say they are. I still don't feel like a child of the age of 12, 13, 14, even up to 16 can truly understand the implications. - We're speaking to Dr Wilson on Zoom because New Zealand doctors with similar views were worried about speaking out. - My main concerns for New Zealand is the lack of ability to express those concerns and have those concerns shut down and considered transphobic as a result. But the lack of ability to discuss this as a medical issue is hugely concerning. (APPLAUSE) - Paddy, it's fair to say that that's on both sides. Most of the experts we've been speaking to have been reluctant or a bit anxious to go on camera and do an interview. Now, the Ministry of Health is considering its position on this. It's working on an evidence brief. So, examining all of the latest science around puberty blockers. And we can expect those findings to be released within the next couple of months. In the meantime, they say it's up to families and doctors to go through the medical advice and work out what's best for each individual child. - Now, at the start of this program, I said that we needed to be able to ask questions. And I think there are questions about puberty blockers and we do need an open review and an open debate about it now. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Alice. And thank you, Eli and Courtney. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Right. Tonight, my issue was with the 'transgender debate' and how we need to calm the farm and actually talk about it. And for me, it goes like this. The most powerful thing somebody said to me about this along the way was, what if it was someone in your own family? What would you do? Now, I know quite a bit about this because one of my direct older relatives is intersex. We learned about intersex earlier in the program. It's when you're born — born — with an ambiguous genitalia. It has been a difficult life for them. I've got their blessing to reveal this tonight. This is something that I have had to learn a lot about during my lifetime. And the reason for doing this is to say this does happen and it happens a lot. Gender is much more complex than many of us think. So if it happened in your family, what would you do? Ignore it? Get angry and confused? Yell and shout? Or would you keep calm, try and learn more, listen and try to understand it? We all know what the right answer is. I'm Paddy Gower, those were my issues, and I'm going to miss youse. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023