(UPBEAT MUSIC) - Hello, Kiwis. I'm Paddy Gower, and I have got issues. On this show, we investigate issues big and small that are important to all of us. Tonight ` exorcisms in New Zealand. Michael Morrah investigates a Catholic order whose former members claim there is abuse, bullying and exorcisms even on children. And Karen O'Leary finally responds to all the Kiwis who've been asking her why a bowl of chips in this country is so damn expensive. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) All right. Tonight, my issue is with exorcisms. Yes, exorcisms, and yes, they are happening right here in New Zealand, and they are being done within the Catholic Church. And there are huge questions about whether these exorcisms are safe, appropriate and properly supervised. Now, our special investigation tonight is also about alleged abuse of power by leaders at a chapel in Christchurch. And it is about apparent inaction by those at the very, very top of the church here. The Catholic Church is, of course, one of our oldest and biggest institutions. There are 400,000 Catholics in New Zealand. This story tonight is about ordinary Kiwis who trusted the Church and feel that that trust has been abused. This is an issue for all of us. Now, I must warn you ` I must warn you ` that tonight's show refers to self-harm, and viewer discretion is advised. And tonight, I'm joined by my very good friend, and I have to say the best investigative journalist that I have ever worked with, Newshub Investigations Correspondent Michael Morrah. - Good to be here. - I'm also joined by our Community Investigator, and the only Community Investigator that I've ever worked with, Karen O'Leary. And our newsdeskers Eli Matthewson and Courtney Dawson. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - A big night, PG. Someone told me this is our last show for a while. - No, no, it's your last show. I'm just joking, Eli. You'll be back as well. We're taking a little break. OK. Now, Michael, it's great to have you here on the show. I've waited a long time for this, and you've been out investigating this. You've spoken to over a dozen people affected by this particular chapel. - Yes, that's right, and the concerns they have relate to the leaders of a group called the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, otherwise known as the Transalpine Redemptorists. And almost over a year, Paddy, I've been investigating this Catholic group, and I've spoken to people who allege the leaders preside over something that's dangerous, where spiritual and psychological abuse prevails. Now, some of the people we've spoken to are scared. They're severely traumatised, and so we've used actors' voices to protect their identities. - MICHAEL MORRAH: Oh, so this is it up on the right. This is it? - This is it just here, yeah. (INDICATOR TICKS) - How do you feel being back here? - Years ago, it was a place that I actually felt a bit scared going past. - Why have you decided to talk to us about this? - I feel a moral obligation to do what I can to try and prevent others suffering. Father Michael's a bully. - Greg Price is one of the original members of the Latin Mass run by the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer. The volunteer fireman loves the Latin Mass, and for 10 years, he followed the teachings of Fathers Anthony Mary and Michael Mary. - What counts for eternal salvation is serving God and doing his will. - But the story is not one of salvation, love and joy. - Be prepared, for the devil is going to make your child slip and knock his head and cry right at the moment of the consecration. - There's definitely an undercurrent of fear and anxiety the whole time. - Mark Robinson was a brother with the Sons for six years. He says if you contradicted Michael Mary, you'd be punished or given a penance. Many times he was instructed to lie on the floor while others stepped over him on the way to dinner. - Another one was making this` making the cross on the floor with your tongue. - Do you mean licking the floor? - Yeah, yeah. Licking the floor in the form of a cross with your tongue three times. - Mark believes such penances were not about humbling people, but humiliating them. Do you think you were a bit traumatised when you left? - Oh, big time. It took more than 10 years to sort of get over and heal from a lot of the damage that was done. I mean, my initial thought on getting out of there was this huge sense of relief, like I'd been let out of prison. - How would you describe the leaders there, Father Michael Mary and Father Anthony Mary? - I describe him as being charismatic, but at the same time quite controlling. - Margaret attended Mass run by the Sons for several months. She says Father Michael Mary wanted her children to join his order, and his involvement with them became unhealthy. What do you mean by 'quite controlling'? - Getting in contact with some of my children and... in a way, I feel, behind my back. - And against your wishes? - Yes. One of my sons, he went silent, wouldn't speak to us, and then he would say, 'Oh, we'll just see what Father Michael Mary has to say.' - Another way she says the leaders became too involved was during a confession with Father Anthony Mary. - He asked me... very deeply personal questions about my... um... sex life. - And what did you make of that at the time? - Made me feel ill. I was disgusted. Made me feel sick, actually. - Margaret, Greg and Mark are not isolated cases. We've spoken to 17 people, many of whom were left traumatised from their time at the church. Many were too frightened to be interviewed on camera for fear of repercussions from the church leaders. One young person told us... - There is a huge focus on sin. There's a focus on doing penance. Basically, if you're lucky, you're just going to scrape into purgatory by the skin of your teeth. - Greg Price says the leaders believed some of their churchgoers were possessed by demons and went so far as to perform exorcisms. Two of Greg's friends had them done. - My understanding is they're nothing to do with the way that a Catholic exorcism takes place ` tying people around the neck to the back of a chair whilst performing the exorcism, and then holding a crucifix and stabbing at them as though the crucifix is a dagger. It's just theatrical... It's madness. - Exorcisms are permitted in New Zealand, but rules dictate that a priest must have permission from a bishop each time such a ritual is carried out. The Christchurch diocese here has told me it did give approval to the Sons for exorcisms on two adults, but we understand at least seven people had them. It's understood one person had dozens of exorcisms performed on them. Many of them lasted several hours, sometimes three days in a row. They confirmed being tied up. Another source confirmed several occasions when people were forcefully held down in a chair. Did exorcisms... occur? - Yes. - Elizabeth left the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer after many years of involvement. Did you ever have concerns about the way in which they were conducted? - Yes. - Why? - Because... boundaries were... overstepped. (MELANCHOLY MUSIC) (TRAM BRAKES SQUEAL) - Michael. - How are you? - 'Michael Hempseed knows a lot about trauma and healing. 'He helps people struggling with mental health issues, 'and says numerous people from the Holy Sons came to see him after their exorcisms.' - The people that came to me from the oratory, they were some of the most traumatised people that I've ever worked with. I was horrified when I heard what was happening. I heard stories of people being tied down, people being what can only be described as being whipped with rosaries and things like that. They described being screamed at ` having people come right up to their face, yelling at them, screaming at them, people saying, 'I want this to stop. I want this to stop.' And they would continue. This would go on not just for five minutes, but for hours and hours. - The Bishop of Auckland, Steve Lowe, has told us it is not normal to restrain someone in any way or tie them up, calling this practice 'cinematic'. And these were multiple people who came to you? - Multiple people, yes. - Did their stories align in terms of the trauma they endured? - Each person had a different experience, but very much there was a consistent pattern of manipulation, abuse of relationships, and control and domination. Probably the most concerning one for me was that a number of people came to me and said exorcisms were being performed on children. - The Sons Of The Most Holy Redeemer have denied ever performing an exorcism on a child, and no bishop has ever given them permission. The leaders say they performed minor exorcisms on children, which Michael Mary likened to the sprinkling of holy water around a person. Whatever the case, we've been told of at least one child who was left severely traumatised after being made to believe the Devil had possessed them. Did children have... exorcisms ever during your time there? - Yes. - Do you think it was necessary? - No. - What could be more frightening to a child than to tell them that they were possessed by a demon? What could be more psychologically frightening? - PADDY GOWER: I mean, unbelievable. As someone who was raised a Catholic, I'm totally blown away by what we just watched. I never saw anything like this happen. - That's right, Paddy. I mean, exorcisms are still happening in New Zealand today. It is a thing, and that might surprise some people. But the key thing is that exorcisms need permission, and they need to be done properly and safely. And the allegations are that those rules haven't been followed. - And Michael, I know you've vastly, vastly experienced in dealing with vulnerable people, but these were really vulnerable people. It must have taken a hell of a lot of work, bro, to get them to come forward. - Yeah, I was actually blown away, Paddy, by the intensity of fear and trauma some people still feel even years after they got out. And this is not a minor gripe by a couple of people. I've spoken to 17 people with serious concerns, and they decided to talk as they wanted to protect others and send a warning. And they all wanted to emphasise that this is not about the traditional Latin Mass. They love that Mass. Their issue is with the leadership. It is, however, important to point out that the leaders deny most of the allegations raised in that segment and deny acting improperly in any way. We'll see their responses to this a bit later in the show. - Incredible investigation so far, and I can't wait to see what they say now. Text or call 1737 for help if this has brought up anything troubling for you. And coming up, Michael goes to the church. How will the leaders respond to these allegations? And Karen meets the people demanding to know why bowls of chips in New Zealand aren't as cheap as chips. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Nau mai, hoki mai. Welcome back, Kiwis. Coming up, we continue our investigation into these allegations of inappropriate exorcisms happening here in New Zealand. But right now, it's time to check in with my friends at the news desk, Courtney and Eli. My buddies. Tell me about the issues that New Zealand has. - Well, buddy, it's been a huge week of sporting success with Shaun Johnson drop-kicking the Wahs into the top three... - ...and the Football Ferns winning their first ever World Cup game thanks to the incredible Hannah Wilkinson. - But those underdog stories were really just the warm-up because the true underdog of 2023 is here. That's right. The election's really starting because Winston Peters has entered the chat. - While the old campaign king Winston Peters spoke up his experience in an empty hall. - Right now, we are going backwards as a country. - And then spoke in a hall emptier than expected. - Since the last election, Peters has lost a lot of his supporters to National and ACT. And also time. - That hall that Winston was speaking from would have been full of avid supporters, but unfortunately, the actors are on strike right now. - But he proved he's still in it to win it by quoting one of the most famous one hit wonders of all time. - Just repeat to yourself the words of Chumbawamba ` 'I get knocked down. 'But I get up again. 'You're never gonna keep me down.' - Usually when Winston quotes a one hit wonder, it's when he's complaining that we're turning Japanese. Now, it's been 30 years of New Zealand First, and they had a huge celebration. - Peters cut into his face cake and then today promised to cut taxes. - From kingmaker to face-caker. Wow. What a gorgeous funeral cake, and he's cutting it with the same knife he used to stab Bill English in the back with. - Gorgeous! And just like my 30th, afterwards he went to town and accidentally pashed the guy at the vape shop. - Happens to the best of us. Well, look, not everyone is excited about the prospect of New Zealand First coming back to government. - People asked, 'David, can you work with Winston Peters?' Well, no one else can. Why would I be able to? I'm not Jesus. - Jesus. Now there's someone who got knocked down, then got back up again. - Seymour is just annoyed because Winston is one of the reasons why he was trying to get euthanasia across the line. Anyway, that's all from us this evening. I'm Chamba. - And I'm Wamba. Back to you, Paddy. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - OK, Speaking of people who get knocked down, then get back up again. Karen O'Leary, I don't want to accuse you of being lazy, but it sounds to me as if tonight's issue for you came from in your own household. - W-Well, I mean, yes and no. Mostly yes. But yeah, hang on. Let me clarify. Obviously, this is actually` the issue tonight is one of the biggest issues that I've had. I've had dozens of emails in and yes, one of them just happened to be from my fiancee. - From your fiancee. - Yeah. But this week is about the nation's favourite side dish, and I'm not talking about me on this show. I'm actually talking about hot chips. - KAREN O'LEARY: Hello. Nice to meet you. Thank you for inviting me into... our home. So obviously, Eilish, the first question I have for you really is ` I'm wondering why you emailed The Paddy Gower Show when you probably could have just talked to me at home. - Well, I just love emails, to be honest. - When did you realise you were so passionate about chips? - Every day after school, in high school at Nelson College for Girls, we would go to Cafe Affair, and we would buy bowls of chips, and they were $4 each, and they were delicious. - Man, these are so cool. They're so great, eh. - And after a hard day at school, there's nothing better than a good chip. - Yeah, or more than one chip. - Well, hopefully more than one. - How many would you get for $4 back in those days? - I'm actually a very bad judge of amounts, so it's hard to know. - Just guess a number. - About a thousand. - OK. So, obviously that was 15 years ago. What have you noticed since then? Like, say, now, for instance? - I'd just say that the price of chips is basically daylight robbery, and even night-light robbery as well. It's just very expensive. It's related to a bigger issue of the cost of living that we're struggling with at the moment. - That is a bigger issue. - Yeah, that is a bigger issue. - Yeah, I think that's more of, like, maybe a Paddy Gower-type issue than... - Maybe I'll email him. (CRICKETS CHIRP) - Okay. So, Eilish, obviously this is an issue for you, and therefore it is an issue for me. So I'm on the job. - Does this mean I get to go have chips with Paddy? - No. 'So, Eilish is worried about chips, but I don't want to put all my chips in one basket. 'I need to hit the streets and see if she's not alone.' Just here talking about chips. - Hot chips? - Yeah, yeah, hot chips. How much do you think a bowl of chips should cost? - Like five bucks, max. - Oh, no more than six bucks. - Six bucks. But they are generally a lot more expensive than that. - $6. - I was gonna say $5.50 at a cafe. - OK. Yeah. - At a bar, $7. - And about how many chips in a bowl? - I don't know the exact figure. - I reckon about three of these potatoes over there. - Like a four potato amount of chips. - So four of these. - Four of those, yeah. - This potato cost me $0.70. So three of these, that's $2.10. - $2.10. - Cheaper to buy a bag of raw potatoes than a small thing of chips. It's crazy. - What's your favourite kind of chip? - Hot chips! - Gotta be crispy. - Thick, chonky chips. - # Fish and chips! - I like the crinkle cut as well. - Oh, crinkle cut? - Oh yeah. - Oh, that's a bit of a throwback. - Yeah, it is. - # Fish and chips. - Have you ever tried a curly fries? - Curly fries? No, I haven't. We didn't have those back in the '70s. - # Eat them for breakfast... - ALL: # ...lunch and tea! # Fish and chips are for me. # - Yeah. The people have spoken. Hot chips are a hot topic, and I need to find out why the price of chips is going up and if I can bring them back down. (DRUMMER PLAYS COMEDIC TRILL) - PADDY GOWER: Fantastic stuff, because I'll tell you what, I paid $14 for a bowl of chips the other day, and it made me bloody angry. And I'm glad to see that other Kiwis are bloody angry about it, but I'm worried ` is just causing division in your house with your fiancee? - Sounds like it. - No, certainly it's not. Is it, Eilish? But look, you know, the thing is, you won't believe what I've actually been able to pull off with this story. I've managed to talk to, and I'm going to talk to, the biggest name in chips. - Who, Bluebird? - Bigger than that. - Eta? - Way bigger than that. Mr Chips? - Bigger than Mr Chips and Ms Chips combined. - You're not talking about, like, Chippy, the Prime Minister, surely. - You'll just have to wait and see, Paddy. - We'll wait and see. Wait and see. - Hey, Paddy, look, I feel like this has been a great part. Courtney and I have done some work. Karen's done some work. But you haven't really done any work this part. - What, you're asking me to chip in? - I am. - With a scoop? (LAUGHS) Cos I can do that, because it's time for No Issues. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) Yes, tonight I've got no issues, no issues whatsoever, with poi. And to be more specific, poi becoming our thing at sports games. Is there a greater sight than these balls of joy and morale whipping through the air, stirring and whipping up national pride? Now, in case some of you at home are thinking, 'Hang on, am I watching Paddy, 'a white, middle-aged white male, discovering and explaining ` some would say mansplaining ` 'the beauty of something that has been in existence for literally hundreds of years?' Then yes, that is exactly what I'm doing right now. There is a poi bandwagon, and I am jumping on it. Last year, poi made the Rugby World Cup even greater than it already was, and now they are back at the FIFA World Cup 2023, and there are 11 Norwegian footballers who never, ever want to see a poi again. But let's face it, Kiwis, we are kind of shit when it comes to stadium vibe. We wear black, we are dower. The most original things we've got are Bring Back Buck signs and never forget, Let's Gone Warriors. And then there is the so-called Mexican wave. I've got a major problem with that. It is the word Mexican. Nothing against Mexicans, but we are Kiwis, and of course we refuse to chant, and we refuse to sing. But wow, oh wow, we can wave poi. The whole world is watching and poi make us look cool. And here is a scientific analysis that I got done for you. last year, the All Blacks had one of their worst seasons ever ` no poi. The Black Ferns, though, pulled off the sporting victory of the century ` poi. Case closed. I say poi should be in the hand of every fan in every seat in every stand at every game that New Zealand plays. They could make us the greatest sports crowds in the world. So, thank you so much to Hiria Aorangi. I would also like to leave you with this very famous and thought-provoking quote from that well known group of philosophers, the Patea Maori Club ` 'Poi e.' That's why I have got no issues with poi becoming our thing. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) Exactly. Coming up. They just look fantastic. Karen gets her hands dirty and sacrifices herself to get the hard data on the great New Zealand hot chip rip-off. And Michael Morrah is after some answers to the allegations of bullying, abuse and unauthorised exorcisms. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - Welcome back, Kiwis. Now tonight, we are investigating exorcisms in New Zealand. So what is the point of exorcisms at all? It's time to go behind the issue. The idea of exorcism is really quite simple ` to turf out whatever evil spirit, demon, or devil that is possessing someone. It has been going on for as long as there has been religion, and most cultures throughout history have believed that people can become possessed and have prayers and rituals to free them. For Catholics, exorcism is an official ritual, and there are actually rules. The Church's exorcism guidelines were updated in 1999 and a 90-page book written entirely in Latin, and the Vatican even ran an exorcism course in 2018 for 250 priests from all around the world. Now, here are some of those rules. Only a proper priest can do an exorcism. He must have the permission of the local bishop. It must be carried out in close cooperation with the bishop, and he must be sure with moral certitude that the person is actually possessed by a demon, not simply physically or mentally ill, and consent from the possessed should be gained. And an important one here ` no media are actually allowed to be present. So what are the signs that someone is possessed by the devil rather than suffering from, say, a mental illness? Well, priests are told to look out for things like super strength, speaking in languages you don't know, displaying violent or aggressive behaviour, and having a strong aversion to holy water or churches. So, just how common is this? Well, exorcism looms much, much larger in popular culture than it actually happens. Movies from 1973's The Exorcist, all the way through to this year's The Pope's Exorcist starring our own Russell Crowe, have increased our interest in exorcism and actually led to spikes in real exorcisms happening. Now, exorcisms are kept secret most of the time, except when they go badly, badly wrong. Now, New Zealand has had a few high profile tragic cases. In the year 2000, Joanna Lee died and the pastor of her Christian sect was convicted of manslaughter, and Janet Moses died way back in 2007 during a makutu lifting exorcism. Now, five people were found guilty of Janet's manslaughter. Official Catholic Church figures provided to us for this show show us that in the past five years, permissions were given for a total of 12 ` yes, 12 ` Catholic Church exorcisms in New Zealand. Six in Auckland and Hamilton ` ` not all of those were carried out ` and there were also six approved in Christchurch. Two of those were for the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, the group that we are looking into tonight. That is 12 times ` 12 times in the past five years ` when our Catholic leaders have agreed that the devil has shown up inside a Kiwi believer and needed to be swiftly gotten rid of. Time to get back into Michael's investigation. And Michael, we saw earlier that the 17 people that you spoke to, they talked about the unauthorised exorcisms and, of course, bullying and manipulative behaviour. - Yeah, that's right, and now we're going to hear from the leaders, who strongly deny most of the allegations. They responded by not agreeing to an interview, but instead by preaching to their faithful. - MICHAEL MORRAH: And so, you raised concerns with the leaders? Yes, I did. - And were you ignored? - Yes. - And how did that make you feel? - Desperate, in a way. Who do you turn to when, you know, the very people that say, 'If you have a problem, speak to us.' 'Feel free to talk to us.' You know, 'Raise your concerns.' And when you raise your concerns, you're brushed off. - Brushed off by leader Michael Mary, Elizabeth left the Sons only to be cut off from everything and everyone she'd known. - The community are very much controlled by those in charge, and so contact with those who have left is discouraged. It's like you never were. You're cut off. You're like a dead limb. - Did you leave because of the way the leaders treated you when you raised concerns? - Yes. - Do you... think the rules and regulations were always followed in relation to exorcisms at the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer? - From what I can gather, and what I've been told, no, I don't think so. - For weeks now, I've been trying to get answers from the leadership here, but both Fathers Michael and Anthony Mary have refused an interview. Instead, a few days ago, the leader, Michael Mary, chose to do an hour-long sermon to his followers, in which he responded to the allegations. - As I speak, an investigative reporter from TV3 waits to do a story on us. The journalist approached us recently with a number of speculative questions. This statement will serve as my answer. - Michael Mary said he and other leaders were not manipulative and denied interfering in the lives of families. - Our community is very popular, and we are often asked to visit families and individuals. - In response to the penance of licking the floor, he said this practice was discontinued in 2012, but... - If a member practised these today, it would be his private choice and only with permission of his spiritual director. - He also said the only physical penances that are taught at the church are things like fasting from a meal or avoiding sweets. - Did this result in some children self-harming? I would like to know who. - On the subject of exorcisms, Michael Mary denies any exorcisms have been performed without permission from the bishop. - Our take on this is that the allegations simply cannot be true. - Despite the Bishop of Auckland confirming it was not normal to tie someone up during an exorcism, Michael Mary said restraints or what he called a 'safety harness' can be necessary to minimise the risk of danger. - During an exorcism when the Devil takes over the person's body, it is not possible for an average person to restrain the mighty strength that is let loose in the person. - He went on to confirm that exorcisms should continue even when people asked that they stop. - Why? Because the Devil, speaking through the possessed person, will call the exorcism to a halt as soon as possible. The evil spirit does not want to be exorcised. - Former member of the church, Elizabeth, watched the livestreamed sermon on YouTube. What did you make of Father Michael's public response to his followers? - It was the height of arrogance. I couldn't believe that he would actually stand up there in the place of a sermon and put on this show for the world, really, not only for the parishioners. There were children in that congregation, you know. It's about him and his behaviour. He just glances over it and deflects it to an attack on the parish. - What is your message to people who were sitting there listening to that sermon? - Well, I hope they listened, listened very carefully, and that they could hear what he's actually saying. Read between the lines. Listen to what he's not saying. - PADDY GOWER: OK. I am absolutely flabbergasted. I mean, are these guys legit? Are they really part of the Catholic Church? - Well, yeah, they are part of the Christchurch diocese, and because of this agreement, they can operate with a degree of autonomy. But the most important point is that under Catholic Church law, the Bishop in Christchurch still has power and authority over this group when it comes to what's known as the care of souls ` so, the care of ordinary churchgoers. So, the question is ` what exactly have those in leadership positions at the Catholic Church done about the multiple allegations that have been raised? We'll be examining this aspect a bit later on. - Yes, absolutely. Massive questions for the leadership. And coming up, exactly what is the Catholic Church hierarchy doing about these exorcism allegations? Michael continues this incredible investigation. And using science, maths and even biology, Karen O'Leary gets answers about chip prices. Just how angry should we be? (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) - Nau mai, hoki mai ` coming up, we will see how the Catholic Church responds to the allegations that we've heard tonight about inappropriate exorcisms. But right now, let's take time to check in with the rest of the world ` Over to you, newsdeskers Eli and Courtney. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - All right. We are starting in Europe, where there's been some tough news for former frog Prince Harry. Hotels in Spain, Turkey and Greece are reporting people are chucking out his memoir in record numbers while on holiday, with many just leaving them lying on the beach. You know, Harry's just like any other British tourist at the beach ` he got red and then he got trashed. (LAUGHTER) People haven't seen this many books about Harry in the bin since JK Rowling got cancelled. (LAUGHTER) - And now some cute animal news from across the ditch ` a Queensland woman has been fined $2300 for taking a selfie with a dingo. She was excited to be taking a selfie with a dingo, and the dingoes were devastated to be taking a selfie with a drongo. (LAUGHTER) Look, I don't see what the big deal is ` every one of my Facebook profile photos is me with an absolute dog. I mean, look at this. It makes me look better. - Oh! That hurt, Courtney. We're going to the Middle of the East now, and Saudi Arabia has been criticised for using Snapchat to promote Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The app is part-owned by a Saudi investor, and it's looking like it's been boosting pro-Prince posts while punishing those who post even mild criticism of him. Snapchat's logo is, of course, a little ghost, which is what you will be if you criticise the Prince. On that note, does anyone know what a presenter's life expectancy after reporting negative news about a Saudi prince is? Uh, by the way, Mohammed bin Salman is wonderful and photogenic. Please don't kill me. I'm not a real journalist. - And finally, great news for 6-year-old me. The Barbie movie is a box-office smash... 'Box-office smash' sounds like what I used to make my Barbies do as a kid. ...and broke ticket-sale records for a film directed by a woman and has the biggest box-office opening weekend for a movie this year. And you know what? It just goes to show that a film written and directed by a woman about a woman can be successful ` as long as the woman it's about is a very sexy toy. - Yeah, well, I want them to make a movie about my favourite toy when I was a kid. TV! (CHUCKLES) We're on it right now. Back to you, Paddy. - You are my two favourite toys, actually, you two. OK? Now, Karen, I had no idea that I was sort of ` you know, I wasn't the only one who had a big issue with chips, and you've promised going even bigger with this investigation than you've ever gone on any issue before. - Well, I do promise that pretty much every week. But it's true in this instance. I mean, this is basically 'no shoestring' kind of a story. You know? - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Thank you. - (LAUGHS) - I've got a really thick cut. And to be honest... Again, good one. It took a bit of a curly path. - Oh, OK, stop. Stop now. Stop. - Look, but obviously, to understand the world of chips, I had to become part of that world. So I just went down to my local, my favourite pub, Bebemos, and learnt how to make them. So we've heard what the people think ` now it's time to get the inside scoop on chips. So let's just get started ` I mean, the price of chips in recent times has really gone kind of ` we're talking here to about, like, way up there. - Yeah. - When was the last time you guys put your chips up? - Ooh. Don't want to mention the big elephant in the room, you know, the big, um` - HUSHED: Was it...? - HUSHED: The pandemic. - Pa` The what? - The pandemic. - Oh yes. - So that will probably be the first time that we rise the` - After the` - After the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. - After the pandemic, everyone's finally coming back here, and you're like, 'Now's the time to charge heaps for chips.' - Well, it also comes from the source as well. Like, I mean, it's` - So it's the price of the sauce. - No, no, sorry. The different source. Source of the potatoes. - Oh, right. OK. - The cost of a box of fries has gone up by $13. - (WHISTLES) Right. These are gonna be good chips. When it comes to deciding what type of chip you're going to serve, obviously, there's lots out there. How did you come up on the chip that you wanted to serve? - Well, we used to do curly fries` - Mm-hm. - ...but then again, got too expensive. So we had to... - Why is that? Because it costs more money to perm the chips? - I don't know if it's like the way they do the potatoes, cos they come to us curly. - Right. - And that got too expensive. And` - Mm-hm. So they're out. - They're out. They're gone, which was devastating. That was probably the most devastating one. - You heard it here first. The most devastating part of the pandemic was actually losing curly fries. - Cos we get people asking for them all the time. - Mm. - And I had a child ask for curly fries recently. So when I told this kid that we didn't have curly fries, he burst into tears. - And how did you feel about that? - Well, I thought it was quite funny. (BELL DINGS) - Let's just go to facts, OK? How much is a bowl of chips here? - It is $11. - How many chips can I expect to get? - A good amount. - How many chips? - So, I would say probably about ` what is that? Like... - 13. - Yeah. So, double that, and probably, like, 30 to 40. - 26. 30 to 40 chips. - Yeah. I'd say about that. - OK. This is a chip-tastrophe, and it's up to me to solve it. I'm going to conduct the biggest chips experiment this nation has ever seen. ('CHiPs' THEME) - I travelled across Whanganui-a-Tara to every chippery in town. I'm just wondering, could I just get some chips, please? I measured them... I smelt them. I counted them... 10. I dipped them. I weighed them, and I even ate them. I braved the Wellington weather and became one with the seagulls. There's probably better food you could eat, like... birdseed, stuff like that. I mean, it's up to you. All in the name of bringing the nation's attention to the state of chips. (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) Thank you. Thank you. Now, as is the case every week, I've done a lot of mahi for this, so it hardly seems fair that Paddy is the only one who gets to walk and talk with some fancy graphics. So it's time to go behind the chipssue. (LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE) So how did we get here? I mean, we think of fish and chips as a Kiwi classic, but hot chips are actually believed to have originated in Belgium all the way back in the late 1600s. Over the next 300 years, hot chips spread all over the world, including right here in New Zealand where fish and chips wrapped in newspaper became a Kiwi icon until about the 1980s, when we realised that eating printer ink might not be such a good idea. It wasn't. And then the chips have made the jump now to cafes, bars and even our home kitchens. But today, the p... Thank you. Someone's saying 'move' in my ear, but I was going to do it anyway. But today, the price of chips has become hotter than the chips themselves. The results of my extensive carb-heavy survey across Wellington are shocking. Take a look at this. I paid for bowls, I paid for pottles, baskets and boxes, and prices are getting higher` - Whoa! - ...than` I know. ...than many of the people who eat them. This is astounding. I was paying up to 17c per chip. - What? - Yeah. So, no, you're not imagining it. The price of chips is getting out of control. And that's because the price of potatoes has skyrocketed. - Ah. - In the last three years alone, frozen potato fries have increased by over $1.50 per kilogram, and fresh potatoes are now over $3.30 a kilogram at the checkout. Extreme wet-weather events and increased production costs have been blamed. But it's us, the consumers, who are paying the price. There's only one place to go to` (LAUGHTER) ...to fix this. - (LAUGHS) - And ` (LAUGHS) I was doing really well until then ` to fix this. It's to the top potato, Mr Chippy himself, the Prime Minister of New Zealand ` so that's what I did. Chris, how are you? Lovely to see you again. - How are you? Nice to see you. - Yes. - Yes. - Thanks so much for your time. What is your favourite style of chip? What is Chippy's chip? - Hand-cut chips, deep-fried, homemade tomato sauce. - Mm. (MOMENTOUS THUD) - Perfect. - What about if you had to choose between chips or a sausage roll? - Ooh, that'd be hard. I've eaten a lot of sausage rolls lately, so, actually, chips would make a nice change. - We actually bought some chips for you today. They actually cost $11, just from` - $11? - I've got a couple of questions, obviously, about chips, and I thought you're the best person to ask. Could you make the overcharging of chips a prisonable offence? - It's not something that's currently on the government's work programme. - So that's a no. - It's currently a no. - Would you consider removing the GST on potatoes so chips can be more affordable? - I think more affordable chips would be a very good thing. In terms of our GST policy, our tax policy, you'll just have to wait a bit longer for that. - So that's kind of another no on the GST one. - Oh, it's just I'm` - No` - I'm very reluctant to make up chip policy on the fly. - On the fry. - On the fry. I really just need to get a yes from you, and I know that's very hard ` you're an amazing politician and the Prime Minister, so... would you consider buying every New Zealander a bowl of chips? - No. (LAUGHTER) - Would I potentially be able to just have one of your chips? - You can help yourself. Yeah. (MISCHIEVOUS MUSIC) Are they good? I'm on a diet. - Are you? - Yeah. - Too many sausage rolls? - Too many sausage rolls. - What did you think of that, Michael? I mean, she got the Prime Minister. An exclusive. - Yeah, pretty good. But when did you actually do that interview? - That was on Monday afternoon. - So, just to clarify here, Karen, this was just hours after the Prime Minister told the nation that one of his ministers had been arrested, and you asked him about hot chips? - Did he? I don't really keep up with the news. I'm too busy interviewing prime ministers. - Look, I admire your tenacity. - And I'll tell you what, that was actually phenomenal. He did not rule out taking the GST off fruit and veg, which would be an absolutely massive, game-changing policy, and a huge success for you. - Well, it's bound to happen. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. - And Karen, it's the last block of this show. We'll be back soon, though, and you're still after people's issues, aren't you? - Always, yes. Because obviously, if it matters to people, it matters to me. So, email if you have an issue ` issues@paddygower.co.nz ` I'll come and help out. - And coming up, Michael goes to the leaders of New Zealand's Catholic Church. How much do they know about these exorcisms, and what are they going to do now? (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) - Welcome back. Now, Michael Morrah has been investigating allegations of serious misconduct and unauthorised exorcisms in a small Catholic group in Christchurch called the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer. Now, Michael, we saw before that the leaders of the group refused to talk to you. What did you do next? - Well, Paddy, the leaders of the Catholic Church in New Zealand, the bishops and the Archbishop, have the ultimate authority in power over this group, and I thought they'd be seriously concerned about this, so I went to find out what they knew and what they've done about it. - MICHAEL MORRAH: February 2022 ` the Parliament anti-mandate protest. - If we don't get this right, then this whole country's going to be subjected to a tyranny that will not finish. - Father Michael Mary joined protesters, stoking fear about vaccine mandates. - This is a serious moral issue for New Zealand, because the whole country's going to go down. - At the protest, Michael Mary spoke of the importance of freedoms, but the overriding concern from the 17 people we've spoken to is that freedom of thought is exactly what he didn't allow. There have been accusations of controlling behaviour, of spiritual abuse and of unauthorised exorcisms, and it raises an important question ` why has nothing been done about it? In recent years, we know at least seven people raised concerns or complaints about the Sons' two leaders at the Christchurch diocese. Mental health counsellor Michael Hempseed was one of them. He went to the then Christchurch Bishop Paul Martin, but didn't hear back. And you received no phone call back or invitation to meet. - Nothing. Absolutely nothing. - How do you feel about that? - Utterly betrayed. The church is there to protect people. The church should be there to look after, particularly, innocent children. Utterly betrayed. - Margaret approached the safeguarding office last year. What happened as a result of the concerns you raised? - I don't know. It was taken back, and that was it. I never heard any more. - WOMAN: Raising local issues with one's diocese can be tricky if it's not sexual misconduct. They're certainly not going to break their legs to go and see what's going on. - You took your concerns to Bishop Paul Martin. What happened? - Nothing. - Can you elaborate? - I sent an email... asking... basically laying out some of my concerns, and asking for a meeting with him. The only reply I got was basically, 'Thank you for'` acknowledging that they had received the email. - Paul Martin was formerly the Bishop of Christchurch. He's now Archbishop of Wellington, effectively making him one of the leaders of the Catholic Church in New Zealand. We did send detailed questions to Archbishop Paul Martin ` most of which he did not respond to. However, he accepted he was aware of issues regarding the culture at the Sons, and simply said to us the issues are being managed. Is that good enough? - I would have thought not. - Religious expert and Emeritus Professor Peter Lineham. - This is a very serious matter, because much of what's produced the Royal Commission has been about practices that have protected people in authority rather than protecting people who are at risk. And to me, this is why you need to be very public and open about what has gone wrong. - This includes ensuring strict rules around exorcisms are followed. It's considered best practice that advice from a medical professional is sought beforehand to eliminate the chance of psychological illness. Paul Martin has not said what mental health checks were done when approving exorcisms at the Sons', but sources have told us there were none. - If you permit priests to use religious authority with all the inner terror, potentially, of eternal hell that you can invoke, if you say that this is at stake, when in fact the person is psychologically injured ` well, that is right up there in the sort of abuse that the Royal Commission is investigating. - Peter Lineham says given the multiple allegations, the bishop should have acted. - The first and fundamental concern of the church must be to intervene to protect lay people whose very spiritual health and well-being is at stake. - Should that happen now, do you think? - From what you've told me, this should be an urgent matter for the church to face up to. - And while church authorities ponder calls for action, Elizabeth has a message to followers of the Sons. - Don't doubt that inner voice. God gave you a mind to question. - And that's what you'd urge people to do? - Absolutely. Bring it out into the light. God works in the light. The Devil works in the darkness. (APPLAUSE) - PADDY GOWER: OK. Incredible. So` we've got no idea what action, if any, has been taken, Morrah? - Yeah, well, that's right, Paddy. The Catholic Church say they are taking action, but the problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of that and the complainants haven't seen any evidence of that. And certainly, that feeling of inaction by the Catholic Church has stifled other complaints ` a guy called me yesterday to say he didn't bother complaining because he'd heard that other people had and nothing happened. He said he felt like the bishops were in ivory towers and very hard to access. And if you can't trust a church priest with complaints and you can't reach out to the bishop, then who do you talk to? And even as a journalist, I was so patient with the Catholic Church, I sent them detailed questions, very detailed questions, and I'm pretty disappointed by the lack of information I got, especially when you consider the amount of publicity they've had over the past few years about abuse. But look, I am so grateful to the 17 people who trusted me with their stories. Revisiting this was agonising for many, it was traumatic, and I hope that as a result of this, that the church does something about it. I will absolutely be continuing to advocate for those people and for anyone else who gets in touch. - OK. Powerful stuff, Michael, and I know you will continue to fight for them, and Karen, great work tonight ` potentially the scoop of the century on the government's tax policy. And of course, our newsdesk is the most amazing version of news I've ever seen. (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) Now, tonight, my issue was with exorcisms, and for me, it goes like this ` what we saw tonight from Michael Morrah was frightening. Do we really think that exorcisms should be a thing in 2023? And if we do because of religious freedom, then at least Kiwis need to know that vulnerable people are not being manipulated and abused by people claiming to be casting out the Devil. Now, on this show, we look for solutions. The solution here is simple. It is for the church to listen to these people. I was born and raised a Catholic, but I don't believe in any of the stuff we've just seen. This is actually embarrassing for me. But worse, I can see that it is ruining people's lives. So I am calling out the Catholic Church and its leaders. You must intervene. In the words of Elizabeth, one of those brave whistleblowers that we showed tonight: Bring it out into the light. The Devil works in the darkness. Now, we will be back with another series on Wednesday the 4th of October. I'm Paddy Gower. Those are my issues, and I'm really, really gonna miss youse. (APPLAUSE, CHEERING) Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air.