CAPTIONS BY KRISTIN WILLIAMS AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` OUR BIGGEST AIRPORT AND OUR BIGGEST AIRLINE KICK OFF OVER THE COST OF TOUCHING DOWN. WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS JUST SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T THINK IS AFFORDABLE FOR THE AVERAGE TRAVELLER. THEY'RE NOT BEING FULLY TRANSPARENT IN SOME OF THOSE ELEMENTS WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT PRICE INCREASES. THEN CREAKING PIPES AND POTHOLED ROADS. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE SHIFTED FOCUS FROM NEW INFRASTRUCTURE TO BETTER MAINTAINING THE STUFF WE'VE ALREADY GOT? AND TWO YEARS SINCE RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, RUSSIAN FORCES MAKE THEIR BIGGEST GAINS IN 10 MONTHS. I THINK THE UKRAINIANS ARE STILL HOPEFUL OF WINNING. AND THE RUSSIANS ARE VERY ENERGISED ABOUT RECENT, YOU KNOW, SUCCESS IN AVDIIVKA. AND BOTH PARTIES ARE HOPING TO WIN MILITARILY. WE'LL HAVE THAT INTERVIEW SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH EFESO. ON WEDNESDAY, GREEN MP, FORMER AUCKLAND CITY COUNCILLOR, PASIFICA LEADER FA'ANANA EFESO COLLINS DIED AFTER A MEDICAL EVENT IN AUCKLAND. MUCH HAS BEEN SAID OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS ABOUT EFESO, BUT GIVEN HIS MANA AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO PUBLIC DISCOURSE, POLITICS, AND ACTIVISM, ON Q+A THIS MORNING, WE WANTED TO TAKE A BIT OF TIME TO SHARE WITH YOU THE REFLECTIONS OF TWO FRIENDS. AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY'S DR PATRICK THOMSEN AND AUCKLAND COUNCILLOR JOSEPHINE BARTLEY. KIA ORA. MORENA. IM REALLY SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS, BUT THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE AS TO HOW YOU HAVE ATTEMPTED TO PROCESS THINGS OF THE LAST FEW DAYS? I THINK FOR MYSELF AND FOR PROBABLY EVERYONE ELSE OUT THERE, IT IS REALLY THINKING ABOUT FIA AND THE GIRLS. THAT WAS HIS WORLD. AND SO, IT REALLY IS, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW CAN WE SUPPORT AND BE THERE FOR THEM AT THIS TIME. I THINK THAT IS THE TEMPERAMENT OUT THERE RIGHT NOW. HOW ABOUT YOU, PATRICK? SIMILAR. FOR US, AS SAMOANS AND PACIFIC PEOPLE, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS LOVED AND RAPPED AROUND AND TAKING CARE OF. EVERYONE WHO KNEW EFESO COLLINS KNEW THAT HIS FAMILY WAS EVERYTHING TO HIM. OUR LOVE AND THOUGHTS AND CARE GO TO FIA AND THE GIRLS. . NOW, EFESO COLLINS HAS BEEN ONE OF IF NOT THE MOST PROMINENT LEADERS IN SOUTH AUCKLAND. IN TERMS OF THE WIDER COMMUNITY, HOW HAS THIS NEWS BEEN RECEIVED AND I JUST? I THINK IT HAS BEEN A SHOCK TO EVERYBODY IN THE COMMUNITIES. YOU SEE THE OUTPOURING ON FACEBOOK. ALL OF THE ORGANISATIONS THAT ARE PUTTING UP TRIBUTES, EVEN IN THE RUGBY OR WAS IT THE LEAGUE WITH A ALL PAID TRIBUTE TO HIM. DIFFERENT SECTORS OF SOCIETY. AND THEN THE PERSONAL STORIES. HE REACHED SO MANY PEOPLE. EVEN IF IT WASN'T FACE-TO-FACE, IT WAS BY MESSAGES THAT JUST SUPPORTED THEM AND THAT SPARK YOU SEE IS JUST RIPPLING OUT THERE OF THE IMPACT THAT HE HAD ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, ESPECIALLY OUR YOUNGER GENERATIONS. DO YOU THINK HE KNEW THAT, PATRICK? HE WAS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO REALLY JUST WANTED TO GIVE LOVE TO OTHERS. I DON'T THINK THAT HE EVER WAS WRAPPED UP IN THE EGO OF THE WHOLE THING. YOUR QUESTION ABOUT DID HE KNOW THAT? I THINK HE FELT THE LOVE FROM THE COMMUNITY, BUT I DON'T THINK HE HAD AN EGO BIG ENOUGH TO SIT THERE AND SAY, THIS IS THE IMPACT THAT I AM HAVING. THAT IS THE KIND OF PERSON THAT HE WAS. JUST GENUINE AND REALLY WANTING TO CONNECT AND HELP PEOPLE. SO IT IS AN INTERESTING WAY TO FRAME THAT QUESTION, BUT I THINK HE DEFINITELY FELT LOVED BY THE COMMUNITY. THAT IS THE BEST RESPONSE THAT I CAN GIVE. I WONDER IF WE CAN REFLECT ON HIS TIME AT AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY. HE WAS A FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE PACIFIC ISLANDS STUDENTS ASSOCIATION WAS THE FIRST PERSON IN HIS FAMILY TO GO TO UNIVERSITY. WHAT WAS IMPACT? MASSIVE. BEFORE HE BECAME A PUBLIC FIGURE, A POLITICIAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE WAS DEDICATED TOWARDS WAS TRYING TO ILLUMINATE PATHWAYS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND SPECIFICALLY WHO HAD A SIMILAR BACKGROUND TO HIM TO ILLUMINATE PATHWAYS INTO HIGHER EDUCATION. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE HELPED TO ESTABLISH WAS SOMETHING STARTING IN 2002. IT WAS A PROGRAM DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR CIVIC YOUTH IN YEAR 12 ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY TO COME TOGETHER AND CONNECT AND SEE HIGHER EDUCATION AS A VIABLE PATHWAY. FOLLOWING THAT, HE ALSO WORKED FOR THE UNIVERSITY FOR 15 YEARS IN OUR EQUITY OFFICE. HE HAD A MAJOR, MAJOR IMPACT. WE ALL KNEW HIM. HE WAS ALWAYS AT ALL OF OUR EVENTS. HE WAS ALWAYS ENCOURAGING US, SENDING US MESSAGES, SAYING, YOU ARE DOING YOUR FAMILY PROUD. I AM STANDING HERE, SITTING HERE, SORRY, SPEAKING ABOUT HIS LEGACY. BUT THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HE TOUCHED. THEY KNOW HOW MUCH HE GAVE TO ALL OF US. WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF HIM AT UNI? JOVIAL, FUNNY, LIVELY, REALLY CARING AND GENEROUS TO SO MANY OTHERS, EVEN TO ME. ONE THING ABOUT HIM IS THAT NO MATTER HOW HIGH HIS PUBLIC PROFILE BECAME, HE STILL REMAINED CONNECTED TO US IN THE COMMUNITY. HE WOULD MESSAGE EVERYBODY. LIKE JOSEPHINE WAS SAYING, A LOT OF TRIBUTES HAVE COME OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, HE RANDOMLY MESSAGE ME AND I HADN'T SEEN HIM IN TWO MONTHS AND HE RANDOMLY MESSAGE TO ASK HOW I WAS AND HOW WAS MY FAMILY. THAT'S THE KIND OF GUY THAT HE WAS. YOU WALK INTO A ROOM AND HE KNEW EVERYBODY THERE. IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO DO WHAT YOU NEEDED TO DO WHEN YOU MET UP WITH HIM BECAUSE EVERYBODY CAME UP TO SAY HELLO BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNEW HIM. THAT IS THE KIND OF PERSON THAT HE WAS. I KNOW IT IS DIFFICULT TO QUANTIFY THESE THINGS, BUT PACIFIC STUDENTS HAVE USUALLY BEEN UNDERREPRESENTED IN THE TERTIARY SECTOR. HOW SIGNIFICANT IS HIS INFLUENCE WHEN IT COMES TO BRINGING MORE PACIFIC STUDENTS INTO HIGHER LEARNING PATHWAYS? IF I CAN USE MYSELF AS AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I STARTED UNIVERSITY IN 2002, THE NUMBERS WEREN'T GREAT THEN. THEY ARE NOT GREAT NOW. BUT WHAT I CAN DEFINITELY SEE NOW IN 2023, NOW THAT I HAVE COME BACK AS A LECTURER, THE FACT THAT I AM HERE AS A LECTURER, EFESO WAS A GROUP OF LEADERS AT THAT TIME WHO WERE ENCOURAGING US TO COMPLETE PHDs. WHEN I CAME THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL, UNIVERSITY WAS THE BE ALL AND END ALL. BUT HIS GROUP OF LEADERS AT THE UNIVERSITY, PACIFIC LEADERS, DEFINITELY HELPED TO SHIFT THAT NARRATIVE AND SAY, YOU CAN BE IN THESE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AND BE AT THE FRONT OF THE CLASSROOM. THIS IS THE KIND OF WORK THAT HIM AND HIS CONTEMPORARIES DID WHEN I WAS AN UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT WHICH WAS 20 ALSO YEARS AGO. AT THAT TIME, IT WAS NEW TO HER PACIFIC LECTURERS. THAT IS PART OF HIS LEGACY. ANOTHER COLLEAGUE SPEAKS ABOUT THE SPECIAL FRIENDSHIP THAT THEY HAD AND HOW HE WOULD ALWAYS ENCOURAGE HER AS WELL. AN IMMENSE LEGACY. HE WAS A GREAT ADVOCATE. OUT OF INTEREST THIS WEEK I WENT OUT AND HEADER LOOK AT THE ARCHIVES, AND THERE ARE DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS OF FA'ANANA EFESO COLLINS CLIPS STRETCHING ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1999. WHAT WAS HE LIKE AS A POLITICIAN? VERY EFFECTIVE. AN ADVOCATE NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE TITLES THAT HE CARRIED THE ORGANISATIONS HE WAS INVOLVED IN. IT WAS JUST INGRAINED IN HIM, THAT ADVOCACY. I WAS ON A RADIO SHOW LAST NIGHT, AND THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW IT WAS EFESO COLLINS WHO REPRESENTED THEM WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO WORK WITH THE COUNCIL. HIS ADVOCACY IS WIDESPREAD. AS A POLITICIAN, YOU CAN SEE AS A STRENGTH HE HAD TO TAKE ON` HE DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME. HE PUSHED THE BOUNDARIES. HE WENT THERE. HE FOUGHT FOR COMMUNITIES. HE FOUGHT FOR INJUSTICE. HE CALLED IT OUT. POLITICALLY, THAT IS WHISKEY BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO THINK CAN I BE VOTED BACK? HE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT. HE THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO? EVERYTHING HE DID WAS TO CREATE A BETTER WORLD FOR HIS DAUGHTERS. HE TOOK THE PLATFORM INTO PARLIAMENT FOR A BETTER COUNTRY AND THEN FIGHTING FOR CLIMATE ISSUES FOR A BETTER WORLD. HIS MOTIVATION WAS LOVE FOR HIS DAUGHTERS. THAT CARRIED HIM THROUGH ALL OF THE CHALLENGES AND DEATH THREATS AND EVERYTHING THAT FACED HIM. THE RACISM THAT HE ENCOUNTERED WHEN HE STOOD FOR THE MAYORALTY. HE WAS AN EFFECTIVE, STRONG, UNIQUE POLITICIAN. THE SENSE THAT I GOT FROM THE OUTSIDE WAS THAT WHEN IT CAME TO NATIONAL POLITICS, HE TOOK A BIT OF TIME TO FIND HIS PLACE. OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, THERE HAS BEEN SOME BACK-AND-FORTH AS TO WHICH PARTY HE MIGHT BE BEST SUITED TO AN NATIONAL POLITICS SETTING. WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HIM BEING ELECTED TO PARLIAMENT FOR THE GREENS? A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE FELT THAT THEY FINALLY HAD A VOICE. SOMEONE WHO WASN'T RESTRAINED OR STICKING TO PARTY LINES OR WASN'T AFRAID TO SPEAK THE TRUTH OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND. PEOPLE FELT A LOT OF HOPE. PEOPLE FELT INSPIRED BY HIM. THAT CONTINUES. SOMEONE SAID TO ME THE OTHER DAY, WASN'T HE AMAZING? WHEN YOU ARE WHERE YOU ARE MEANT TO BE, YOU RADIATE. HE IS RADIATING NOW. HIS LEGACY IS NOT OVER. IT IS NOT FINISHED. SO MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HONOUR HIS LIFE, HIS FIGHT BY TAKING UP THE MENTAL THEMSELVES. PATRICK, IN 2012, HE WAS PUBLIC IN HIS OPPOSITION TO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE. HE FELT THAT HIS POSITION WAS INFORMED BY HIS FAITH AT THE TIME. YOU DISAGREED AND THE TWO OF YOU HAD SOME TOUGH CONVERSATIONS. CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT THE JOURNEY? IT WAS AN INTERESTING TIME FOR PACIFIC COMMUNITIES. I WASN'T AT THE TIME. I WAS OVERSEAS WORKING AND STUDYING. BUT WE DID HAVE INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS VIA EMAIL AND TEXT. HIS JOURNEY TOWARDS BETTER UNDERSTANDING WAS SOMETHING THAT HIS FAMILY WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR. THIS IS A CONVERSATION THAT WE HAD. I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THIS. HE WAS A PERSON WHO LED WITH LOVE. EVEN AT THE TIME IN 2012, HE BELIEVED THAT HE WAS SHOWING HIS LOVE FOR HIS COMMUNITY BY SAYING THINGS THAT I DID NOT AGREE WITH. BUT HE FELT LIKE HE WAS SERVING HIS CHURCH IN HIS COMMUNITY AT THE MOMENT. THAT IS WHERE THE DISAGREEMENT CAME. OVER TIME, HE CAME TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE WORDS THAT HE USED WERE VERY HURTFUL TO CERTAIN MEMBERS OF PACIFIC COMMUNITIES. HE HAD AN INCIDENT HAPPENED IN HIS FAMILY THAT HELPED HIM UNDERSTAND THAT. I KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT INFLUENCING THEIR CHANGE, BUT ACTUALLY IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM HIM AND FROM HIS FAMILY. HIS FAMILY WAS EVERYTHING FOR HIM. THAT IS HIS OWN PRIVATE STORY, AND I DON'T WANT TO SHARE, BUT IT WAS HIS FAMILY THAT REALLY PUSHED HIM TOWARDS THAT PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING. AND I WAS SITTING ON THE OTHER SIDE WELCOMING HIM AND GIVING HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONNECT WITH MORE PACIFIC RAINBOW PEOPLES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. HE HAS TAKEN THAT OPPORTUNITY. HE TOOK THEIR OPPORTUNITY REALLY WELL. I THINK YOU SHOULD BE CREDITED FOR SHOWING A HIGH DEGREE OF INTEGRITY AS A POLITICIAN TO BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY STAND UP AND SAY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I HURT PEOPLE. I AM SORRY. I DON'T THINK A LOT OF POLITICIANS WOULD DO THAT EASILY. IT JUST SPEAKS TO THE TYPE OF INTEGRITY THAT HE HELD AS A PERSON. AND FIRST AND FOREMOST, A FRIEND. THAT IS HOW OUR CONVERSATIONS ALWAYS STARTED AND ENDED, WITH OUR FRIENDSHIP. ONE LAST QUESTION FOR THE BOTH OF YOU. I WENT BACK AND WATCHED HIS MAIDEN SPEECH IN WHICH HE TALKED ABOUT REPRESENTING POOR AND MARGINALISED COMMUNITIES. HOW SHOULD HIS COLLEAGUES ENSURE THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE STILL REPRESENTED WITH THE SAME ENERGY AND PROMINENCE? I THINK WITH EFESO COLLINS, HE LOVED SEEING YOUNG PEOPLE, HE LOVES SEEING PACIFIC PEOPLE EXCEL. IT IS FOR US TO DO THE BEST WE CAN FOR OURSELVES AND TO DEAL WITH THINGS WITH GRACE AND COMPASSION. IN THE FACE OF ALL THAT HE FACED, HE STILL CARED ABOUT OTHERS. I AGREE 100%. THE GRACE AND COMPASSION IN THE WAY THAT YOU WORK TOWARDS BUILDING A BETTER NEW ZEALAND IS SOMETHING THAT HE ALWAYS SPOKE ABOUT. FOR HIS COLLEAGUES, ESPECIALLY HIS COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE NOW LOST A CAUCUS MEMBER, THE VALUES THAT HE ESPOUSED, THOSE POLICIES THAT HE WANTED TO PUSH FOR THE SQUARE PEGS WHO COULDN'T FIT INTO THE ROUND HOLES, IT IS TIME TO STAND UP AND MAKE SURE THAT THAT WORK DOES NOT FALTER THE WAYSIDE. FOR US AS PACIFIC PEOPLE HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO STRIVE FOR OUR DREAMS, WE CONTINUE TO AIM BETTER FOR OUR COMMUNITIES, AND WE CONTINUE TO WORK AND SERVICE. THAT IS THE CORE OF WHO EFESO COLLINS WAS. I AM SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US THIS MORNING. AFTER THE BREAK ` IS AIR TRAVEL BACK? WHAT CAN AIR NEW ZEALAND'S PERFORMANCE TELL US ABOUT THE GLOBAL ECONOMY? WELCOME BACK. ONCE AGAIN, AIR NZ AND AUCKLAND AIRPORT ARE SCRAPPING OVER THE FUTURE OF LANDING FEES. THE AIRLINE SAYS AUCKLAND AIRPORT SHAREHOLDERS HAVE SWEATED THE ASSET AND THAT PASSENGERS ARE GOING TO END UP PAYING UNREASONABLE LANDING FEES TO COVER AN UNNECESSARILY GRAND REDEVELOPMENT. AUCKLAND AIRPORT SAYS THE REDEVELOPMENT IS NECESSARY AND FUTURE PROOFS ARGUABLY OUR MOST IMPORTANT GATEWAY WITH THE WORLD. HERE'S AUCKLAND AIRPORT CEO CARRIE HURIHANGANUI. WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PRICE-SETTING REVIEW NOW, AND IT FEELS LIKE AIR NEW ZEALAND'S LOOKING TO CIRCUMVENT THAT PROCESS SO THAT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO INFLUENCE. AND LISTEN, THEY ARE COMMERCIALLY INCENTIVISED TO DO SO. IF YOUR AIRPORT CHARGES GO UP, THAT PUTS PRESSURE ON YOUR PROFIT MARGINS. IT OPENS UP THE ABILITY FOR COMPETITION. SO YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM, BUT WE BELIEVE THE SYSTEM IN PLACE WORKS, AND IT NEEDS TO RUN THROUGH. THAT COMMERCE COMMISSION REPORT IS DUE OUT IN MAY, BUT AIR NZ SAYS IT WANTS A NEGOTIATION AND MEDIATION FRAMEWORK TO BE INTRODUCED SO AIRLINES HAVE MORE FORMALISED INPUT. AIR NZ CEO GREG FORAN, KIA ORA. GOOD MORNING. MORENA. FROM A REGULATORY PERSPECTIVE, WHAT SORT OF MEDIATION YOU WANT? FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS A PRETTY BIG NUMBER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE. TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE, IT ABOUT THREE TIMES THE COST OF A NATIONAL BROADBAND ROLLOUT. IT'S ABOUT SEVEN TIMES THE COST OF WARKWORTH PUHOI MOTORWAY EXTENSION. WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS WE ARE NOT GOING TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT EASILY WITH THE AIRPORT ON THIS, SO WE ARE ASKING THE GOVERNMENT TO SIMPLY STEP IN, NO REGULATORY CHANGE NEEDED, BUT TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT. WE THINK THERE'S ABOUT $1 BILLION WE CAN SAVE HERE. AUCKLAND AIRPORT WOULD DISPUTE THAT. I KNOW HAVE PROVIDED THEM AN ALTERNATIVE PLAN WITH THE SAVINGS. THEY SAY THAT PLAN IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR AN AIRPORT AND DOESN'T ALLOW FOR CERTAIN THINGS. WHEN IT COMES TO THE MEDIATION OR ARBITRATION ROLE, WHY IS THAT NECESSARY WHEN WE HAVE THE COMMERCE COMMISSION KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON ALL OF THIS? SURE. THE COMBOS COMMISSION ONLY LOOK AT A COMPONENT OF IT. THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THE $6.7 BILLION SPEND. THEY ARE ONLY CONCENTRATING ON THE RETURN ON THE 6.7 BILLION. IT'S A BIT LIKE IF YOU WERE TAKING A MORTGAGE OUT ON A HOUSE. THE COMMERCE COMMISSION ARE VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT THE MORTGAGE RATE IS. WHAT THE COMMERCE COMMISSION AREN'T LOOKING AT IS WHETHER THE ORIGINAL AMOUNT THAT YOU ARE TAKING OUT, 7 BILLION, IS TOO MUCH. SO WE ARE ASKING THE GOVERNMENT SIMPLY TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT. THEY DON'T HAVE TO MAKE ANY REGULATORY CHANGE. HAPPENS RIGHT AROUND THE WORLD. WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES CONCERNED ABOUT IT. THE PEOPLE WHO ORIGINALLY WORKED WITH AUCKLAND AIRPORT ON THIS PARTICULAR PLAN, THEY HAVE SAID THERE IS ABOUT $1 BILLION SAVING HERE. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT IT BECAUSE IT ALL MATTERS IN THE END TO EVERYONE. I KNOW THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL WAIT TO THE TIME BEING. WE ARE EXPECTING A REPORT IN MAY. WHY NOT WAIT UNTIL THAT POINT TO SEE WHAT THE COMMERCE COMMISSION ACTUALLY SAYS? OF THE THREE PARTIES INVOLVED, THOSE OF THE ONES SUPPOSEDLY ACTING IN CONSUMERS INTERESTS. ACTUALLY ALL AIRLINES ARE INVOLVED IN THIS. QANTAS AND JET STAR AND AIR CHATHAMS HAVE ALSO SAID THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT. BUT IT'S ALSO IN COMMERCIAL INTEREST. THE COMMERCE COMMISSION IS ACTING ON BEHALF OF CONSUMERS. THEY ARE ONLY LOOKING AT A COMPONENT OF IT, JACK, AS I SAID. WE WANT THE MINISTER TO STEP IN AND SAY, BROADEN YOUR SCOPE. DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE INTEREST RATE. TAKE A LOOK AT THE TOTAL AMOUNT THAT IS GETTING SPENT. COS IT IS A BIG AMOUNT. IT IS SEVEN TIMES THE COST OF GETTING FROM PUHOI TO WARKWORTH. THE ANNUAL HALF-YEAR RESULTS THIS WEEK, YOU LAID OUT SOME CONCERNS ABOUT SOFTENING THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS. WHAT YOU SEE BEING THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN THE SHORT TO MEDIUM-TERM? TWO THINGS. FIRST IS THAT I SUSPECT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE OUT OF GOVERNMENT DURING THE YEAR AS A TIGHTENING ON SPENDING. FOR OUR DOMESTIC BUSINESS, ABOUT 60% IS LEISURE AND ABOUT 40% AS BUSINESS, GOVERNMENT, SMALL TO MEDIUM ENTERPRISES. IF YOU GET 1/3 OF THAT STARTING TO CONSTRAIN ITS SPENDING, WE NEED TO BE CONSCIOUS OF THAT. PROBABLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE ECONOMY. THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A LOT OF EXPENDITURE WE KNOW THERE. WE HAVE BENEFITED FROM THAT IN THE PAST. I WOULD THINK WE WILL SEE A LITTLE BIT OF TIGHTENING. THE SECOND ASPECT IS THAT WE ARE SEEING SIGNIFICANT COMPETITION, PARTICULARLY OUT OF NORTH AMERICA AT THE MOMENT. THAT IS MORE OF A GEOPOLITICAL ISSUE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES. THERE IS A LOT OF NORTH AMERICAN CARRIERS NOW THAT ARE FLYING INTO NEW ZEALAND, SO WHAT WE ARE STARTING TO SEE IS PARTICULARLY DOWN THE ECONOMY END OF THE PLANE, A LIGHTENING OF LOADS AND DROPPING OF PRICES. THAT'S INTERESTING. IT'S A GEOPOLITICAL ISSUE, YOU THINK? YEAH. THE TENSIONS BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES, THAT IS REFLECTED WHEN IT COMES TO AIR TRAVEL? IT'S MAYBE EVEN A LITTLE BIT BROADER THEN TENSIONS. BUT THE U.S-CHINA AIR TRAVEL HAS BEEN QUITE SLOW TO START UP. LITERALLY 24 FLIGHTS ` WELL FROM CHINA AND 12 FROM THE UNITED STATES PER WEEK. THIS IS A ROUT THAT USED TO DO BETWEEN 600 TO 700 FLIGHTS PER WEEK. CURRENTLY, THEY ARE SITTING AT 48. YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE CHINA IS REASONABLY SLOW AT RENEWING PASSPORTS, GETTING VISAS OUT THERE, SO THERE'S TRAVELLERS SLOW TO START UP. PART OF THAT WILL BE TO FUEL THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY. THE UNITED STATES HAS TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT TO GET TO CHINA, THEY ARE OFTEN HAVING TO FLY OVER RUSSIAN AIRSPACE. TO BE HONEST, IT ALSO PROBABLY SUITS THEM TO HAVE CAPACITY REDUCED BECAUSE IT DRIVES PRICES UP. THE END RESULT IS THAT UNITED STATES CARRIERS HAVE SPARE PLANES SITTING AROUND. WHAT YOU DO? YOU FIND SOMEWHERE TO FLY THEM. WE HAVE 28 FLIGHTS A WEEK BETWEEN AUCKLAND AND LOS ANGELES IN A ROUTE THEY TRADITIONALLY WOULD RUN ABOUT 14 TO 16. THERE IS MORE CAPACITY. PRICES COME DOWN. MORE BROADLY, HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE TRAJECTORY OF OUR ECONOMY? I AM ACTUALLY OPTIMISTIC. NOT JUST FOR NEW ZEALAND. I AM OPTIMISTIC AROUND WHAT I SEE HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I WILL JUST PICK TWO AREAS, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE BEING TRANSPORTATION AND ANOTHER ONE BEING WHICH IS SPOKEN A LOT ABOUT, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. I AM ENCOURAGED BY WHAT I AM SEEING IN TRANSPORTATION. THE JET ENGINE HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE 1942. YOU ARE NOW SEEING ELECTRIC AIRCRAFT BEING DESIGNED. YOU ARE SEEING HYPERSONIC, SUPERSONIC AIRCRAFT. SPACE. THE OBJECTIVE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SPACE IS NOT HOW TO GET TO THE MOON. THEY HAD A COMMERCIAL ONE LAND THERE LAST WEEK. IT'S HOW TO YOU DO IT AT A LOWER COST. IF YOU DO THINGS AT A LOWER COST, THAT CREATES OPPORTUNITY. ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ` I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE IS ABSOLUTELY UNPRECEDENTED IN MY LIFETIME. AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY IS LITERALLY BEING BORN IN MONTHS. ONE COMPANY STARTED OFF PRODUCING GAMING CHIPSETS. I SEE ON EBAY YOU CAN NOW BUY THESE FOR US$40,000. THAT IS A $2 TRILLION BUSINESS. IM ENCOURAGED BY THAT. WHAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO DO IS HOW DO YOU PARTICIPATE IN SOME OF THOSE THINGS? THE IDEA WOULD BE TO TAKE THEM ALL ON, BUT HOW DO YOU TAKE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU ENCOURAGE INVESTMENTS IN COMPONENTS OF INDUSTRIES THAT ARE SURGING AHEAD SO THAT WE CAN MAKE SOMETHING OF IT? OTHER THINGS THAT WE COULD BE DOING DIFFERENT LITTLE BETTER? YEAH. USUALLY WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IN THESE THINGS IS HOW EASY DO YOU MAKE IT FOR PEOPLE TO DO BUSINESS? BECAUSE I THINK THE ONLY TRULY COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE YOU HAVE AN ALMOST ANYTHING YOU DO IS SPEED. AND THE MOMENT THAT YOU START LAYERING IN BUREAUCRACY AND ADMINISTRATION AND THINGS THAT SLOW DOWN THE ABILITY OF PEOPLE TO GET ON AND DO THINGS QUICKLY, THEY WILL START TO LOOK FOR OTHER AREAS TO AND INVEST IN. I WOULD PICK A COUPLE OF AREAS AND GO FOR IT. MAKE IT REALLY EASY TO DO BUSINESS. OTHER AREAS THAT STAND OUT TO YOU? I WILL PICK ONE THAT I THINK MAKES QUITE A BIT OF SENSE, AND WE HAVE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF SUCCESS WITH THIS, BUT HOW DO YOU DO MORE? ELECTRIC AIRCRAFT. WE HAVE GONE OUT THERE AND BOUGHT ONE. IT IS SMALL. IT IS A FIVE SEATER. IT WILL INITIALLY BE DOING CARGO. BUT IF WE CAN CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT BETWEEN THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY AND MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND SAY, HEY, HERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME A LEADING DEVELOPMENTAL PL, FORD ELECTRIC AIRCRAFT, I WOULD BE SURPRISED WE COULDN'T MAKE SOMETHING WORK. INITIALLY, THE FIVE SEATER ISN'T GOING TO MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO PEOPLE, BUT WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSE TO THIS, THEY CAN SEE A PATH FORWARD IN TERMS OF BATTERIES TO SEE HOW IT CAN BECOME A 30 SEATER WITHIN A FEW YEARS. GET THE REGULATION AND BUREAUCRACY OUT OF THE WAY WHERE IT DOESN'T SUPPORT THE RIGHT LEGS THAT WE WANT TO SUPPORT ` WHETHER THAT BE SAFETY ETC. LET PEOPLE GET IN HERE AND HAVE A GO AND INVEST QUICKLY. WHAT IS THE CHANGING GOVERNMENT MEANING ON THAT FRONT? I AM ENCOURAGED BY WHAT I SEE. AND THE DEALINGS THAT WE HAVE HAD TO DATE ACROSS TRANSPORT AND COMMERCE. A DIFFERENT APPROACH? YEAH. I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO GET ON AND GET THINGS DONE. I LIKE THE IDEA OF REDUCING WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO. PICK THREE OR FOUR THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO GO AFTER AND THEN GO HARD ON THOSE. INVARIABLY, IN BUSINESS AND I SUSPECT GOVERNMENT ISN'T A LOT DIFFERENT, IF YOU SPREAD YOURSELF TOO WIDE, YOU DON'T EVER HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SCALE IS. WHAT ARE THE THREE OR FOUR THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO GO HARD IN? GO HARD ON THOSE. PUT THE OTHERS ON A TO-DO LIST. LET'S FOCUS ON WHAT WE WANT TO KNOCK OVER FIRST. I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT DOMESTIC AIRFARES. THEY SEEM VERY EXPENSIVE AT THE MOMENT. YOU SAID THEY ARE LIKELY TO INCREASE FURTHER IN THE SHORT-term. WHAT DOES THAT DO TO YOUR SOCIAL LICENCE? LOOK. THAT CERTAINLY WOULD BE ONE OF THE MOST ASKED QUESTIONS THAT I GET. PRICING FOR AIRLINES CAN BE VERY CHALLENGING. CHEAP AT FIRST AND IF YOU STARTED BY LATE, YOU ARE PAYING AGAINST THE ODDS. THERE AREN'T TOO MANY INDUSTRIES WITH A DELTA BETWEEN THE LOWEST AND HIGHEST PRICE IS SO SIGNIFICANT. IT IS DIFFERENT IF YOU ARE A LOW-COST CARRIER LIKE A RYAN AIR OR JETSTAR. THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE SEATS AT THE END. WE ARE FACING INFLATION LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS. IN FACT, WHEN WE LOOK AT INFLATION OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS, OURS IS RUNNING AT 25% TO 30%. WE HAVE ABSORBED A LOT OF THOSE COSTS. YOU CAN ONLY HOLD THEM FOR SO LONG. WHEN I LOOK AT MARGINS ON DOMESTIC TODAY, AND I KNOW PEOPLE WOULD SAY IT'S EXPENSIVE TO FLY, I'M NOT MAKING THE SAME MARGIN I WAS FOUR YEARS AGO. I NEED TO GET THAT UP A BIT. I DON'T NEED TO GET IT ALL THE WAY UP, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE PROFITABLE BECAUSE IF IT ISN'T, IT GETS DIFFICULT TO KEEP INVESTING AND INNOVATING AND DOING NEW THINGS IN THE AIRLINE. FROM A LEADERSHIP PERSPECTIVE, IT MUST ADD A CURIOUS DIMENSION COMPARED TO SOME OF YOUR PREVIOUS ROLES WHERE IT COULD AT TIMES HAVE BEEN MORE OF FOCUS ON IMMEDIATE PROFITS. YOU HAVE THE SOCIAL LICENCE DIMENSION THAT ADDS A BIT MORE ATTENTION TO YOUR EQUATIONS. IS THAT FAIR? I DO THINK IT'S JUST ME. WHEN I LOOK AROUND THE WORLD AND A NUMBER OF CEOs THAT I HAVE TALKED TO AND MET AND HAVE SPENT TIME WITH, I THINK THE ROLE OF THE CEO IS ACTUALLY QUITE DIFFERENT AND IN SOME WAYS MORE DIFFICULT TODAY THAN WHAT IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO. 20 YEARS AGO, YOU FOCUSED INTENTLY ON LOOKING AFTER YOUR CUSTOMER AND LOOKING AFTER YOUR SHAREHOLDER. THEY WERE TWO KEY STAKEHOLDERS. THESE DAYS, IT'S INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT TO LOOK AFTER YOUR STAFF. SOME WILL ARGUE THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, BUT I THINK YOU ARE SEEING AN INCREASING AMOUNT OF EFFORT REQUIRED IN THAT. AND TO OTHER STAKEHOLDERS BECOME IMPORTANT ` SUPPLIERS AND THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH YOU OPERATE. AS I LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, BUSINESSES THAT AND ADOPTING A REASONABLY LONG-TERM APPROACH AND BALANCING ACROSS ALL OF THOSE STAKEHOLDERS STAND THE RISK OF GETTING INTO A BIT OF TROUBLE. THE SOCIAL LICENCE TO OPERATE HAS NOT REDUCED; IT HAS INCREASED. WE ARE VERY COGNIZANT OF THAT AT AIR NEW ZEALAND. I THINK, INCREASINGLY, A LOT OF BUSINESSES ARE. THANK YOU. MY PLEASURE. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH NZQ+A, AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. AFTER THE BREAK ` THERE'S NO POINT BUYING NEW STUFF IF YOU DON'T LOOK AFTER WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY GOT. THE FRANK MESSAGE FOR OUR POLITICIANS WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDING NEW ZEALAND'S INFRASTRUCTURE. IN THE DECADE TO 2022, FOR EVERY $10 WE SPENT ON NEW INFRASTRUCTURE IN NEW ZEALAND, ALMOST $6 OF EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE WORE OUT. THAT'S THE CONCLUSION OF A NEW REPORT FROM THE NEW ZEALAND INFRASTRUCTURE COMMISSION, TE WAIHANGA, WHICH SAYS WE'RE AT RISK OF FOCUSING ON NEW INFRASTRUCTURE AT THE EXPENSE OF MAINTAINING WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE. TE WAIHANGA'S GEOFF COOPER IS WITH US THIS MORNING. KIA ORA. GOOD TO BE HERE. YOUR REPORT FINDS THAT WE HAVE INFRASTRUCTURE ASSETS IN NEW ZEALAND WITH ALMOST $300 BILLION. NEW ZEALAND/ COMPARE TO OTHER COUNTRIES COMPARED TO OUR ASSET BASE HOW WE SPEND ON ASSETS, WE ARE IN THE TOP 20%. WE HAVE BEEN SPENDING A LOT. THAT NUMBER HAS BEEN INCREASING OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. THE NUMBER ON WHAT WE SPENT ON INFRASTRUCTURE HAS INCREASED BY 70% SINCE 1990. WHEN IT COMES TO TURNING INPUTS INTO OUTPUTS, HOW FAST WE ARE MOVING ON AND NETWORK, WE ARE IN THE BOTTOM 10%. , THAT IS REMARKABLE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO NUMBERS. WHY IS THAT? WE HAVE A LEAKY BUCKET WHEN IT COMES TO NEW ZEALAND. THERE IS TWO APPROACHES WHEN YOU SEE A LEAKY BUCKET; EITHER YOU WANT TO PUT MORE WATER INTO IT OR YOU WANT TO START MENDING THOSE HOLES TO STOP THE WATER COMING UP. WE HAVE DIFFERENT APPROACHES. IN RECENT TIMES, FOR MANY OF OUR SECTORS, WE ARE PUTTING MORE WATER INTO THE BUCKET. TALK TO US ABOUT THAT, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INVESTING IN NEW INFRASTRUCTURE AND MAINTAINING WHAT WE HAD. THERE IS A DECISION THERE. YOU CAN INVEST MORE, BUT YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH MAINTENANCE, RENEWALS. A HOUSE, IF YOU RENOVATE A KITCHEN, YOU CAN'T PAINT YOUR WEATHERBOARDS. YOU CAN DO THAT FOR A LITTLE WHILE, YOU CAN PUT OFF PAINTING THE HOUSE, BUT AT SOME POINT, THE WEATHERBOARDS ARE GOING TO START WRITING, IN THE COSTCO UP IN THE FUTURE. THAT MEANS IF YOU ARE NOT OPTIMISING THAT MAINTENANCE, YOU ARE GOING TO GET LESS INFRASTRUCTURE, NOT MORE. WHY? YOU HEAR THAT PROBLEM, DEPRECIATION, AND YOU THINK, IT IS OBVIOUS. POLITICIANS LIKE TO PROMISE NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, NEW PROJECTS, BECAUSE IT IS NOT NEARLY AS SEXY AS SAYING WE WILL POUR MONEY INTO KEEPING UP THE ASSETS WE HAVE. THERE ARE THEORIES ABOUT MAINTENANCE. WE ARE A NEW COUNTRY. WE HAVE NOT BEEN AROUND THAT LONG. THE LAST 100 YEARS, WE HAVE GONE FROM 1 MW OF ELECTRICITY. WE'RE GETTING THROUGH THE FIRST COUPLE OF CYCLES OF MAINTENANCE. THE SECOND POINT IS INFRASTRUCTURE MAINTENANCE IS HARD. DIGGING UP PIPES TO LOOK AT THE QUALITY IS EXPENSIVE. A FLAW IN HUMAN CHARACTER IS EVERYONE WANTS TO BUILD AND NO ONE WANTS TO DO MAINTENANCE. THAT IS VERY NUMBER TWO. VERY NUMBER THREE IS THAT WE ARE NOT ALWAYS INCENTIVISED TO CARE. WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE TYPES OF INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE DO WELL IN, WHAT YOU SEE IS THAT THE REVENUE STREAM, HOW WE ARE FUNDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE COMES FROM THE ASSET. IF YOUR REVENUE STREAM COMES FROM THE ASSET, YOU ARE INCENTIVISED TO MAINTAIN THAT ASSET. WE START. LOOKING AT INSTITUTIONS YOUR REPORT FOUND THREE QUARTERS OF NEW ZEALAND'S INFRASTRUCTURE ASSETS ARE PUBLICLY HELD, BY COUNCILS AND GOVERNMENT. 1/4 IS PRIVATELY HELD. THE DIFFERENT FORMS OF INFRASTRUCTURE, ROUTING, WATER INFRASTRUCTURE, MOST OF OUR VIEWERS WOULD AGREE THERE ARE DOMINANT ISSUES AT THE MOMENT; THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE HELD IN PRIVATE TERMS, THINGS LIKE DELICACY, GAS ASSETS. THOSE HAVE CONSISTENT REVENUE STREAMS, WHEREAS PUBLIC ASSETS DON'T. THAT IS TRUE AS A GENERALISATION. TRANSMISSION, DISTRIBUTION, LINES COMPANIES, YOU RECEIVE A BILL FOR HOW MUCH ALLERGENICITY YOU USE. IN SOME PARTS OF NEW ZEALAND, YOU RECEIVE A BILL FOR WATER, AND OTHER PARTS YOU RECEIVE A RATES BILL. BY AND LARGE, THIS IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE SYSTEMS. WHAT CAN WE DO FOR THOSE PUBLICLY HELD ASSETS FOR WHICH WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE REVENUE STREAMS, TO INCENTIVISE INVESTMENT. IF YOU CAN TIE YOUR REVENUE STREAM TO YOUR ASSET, YOU SHOULD. IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE WATER MEETING, VOLUMETRIC, CHARGING, IT MAKES SENSE FROM MAINTENANCE TO DO THAT. IN SOME SECTORS THAT IS DIFFICULT TO DO. I AM THINKING OF HEALTHCARE, HOSPITALS. IN THOSE SECTORS, WE ARE THINKING ABOUT INFORMATION DISCLOSURES. LET'S KNOW WHAT WE CAN. FOR THIS REPORT, WHAT WE FOUND IS THERE IS A LOT OF UNKNOWNS OUT THERE. CATEGORISE IT IN THREE WAYS. FOR COMMERCIAL, REGULATED INFRASTRUCTURE, THEY ARE KEEPING UP WITH THEIR DEPRECIATION. LOOKS GOOD. FOR A LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THEY ARE INVESTING ABOUT $0.74 ON THE DOLLAR ON ALL OF THEIR ASSETS, SO NOT GOOD, BUT AT LEAST WE KNOW. WHEN IT COMES TO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE, PUTTING TRANSPORT ASIDE, HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, DEFENCE, WE DON'T HAVE THE DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS THERE. THERE IS A GAP IN OUR KNOWLEDGE. HOW MUCH ARE WE INVESTING IN DEPRECIATION FOR THESE ASSETS? HOW WOULD WE KNOW, OTHER THAN WALKING AROUND A HOSPITAL? SPENDING ON MAINTENANCE, WHERE DO WE GO FROM THERE? ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICAL DIMENSIONS AND INCENTIVES FOR PROMISING NEW PROJECTS RATHER THAN MAINTAINING. RING FENCING MAINTENANCE SO YOU'RE NOT COMPROMISING THE MAINTENANCE. THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO POLITICAL WHIMS OF THE DAY./ THAT IS RIGHT. YOU CAN PAINT THE HOUSE NEXT YEAR SO YOU CAN GET A TV THIS YEAR; YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT INDEFINITELY. AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHEN YOU INVEST IN A NEW PIECE OF INFRASTRUCTURE, A NEW ASSET, THAT HAS AN OBLIGATION TO MAINTAIN NOW AND INTO THE FUTURE. HOW MUCH IS THE GAP AT THE MOMENT? IF WE ARE SPENDING SIX DOLLARS AND EVERY 10 TO MAINTAIN WHAT WE REALLY HAVE, HOW MUCH DO THINGS NEED TO CHANGE? FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THAT WOULD BE THE NUMBER. FOR ROADS, IT VARIES, BUT IT LOOKS TO BE ABOUT 40% AT THE MOMENT. THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS PUT OUT. THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT HOLES. THOSE ARE VAST GAPS. THE REPORT SAID CONSIDERING INVESTMENT IN RECENT DECADES, ACROSS DIFFERENT INFRASTRUCTURE TYPES OR FORMS, ROUTING IS TOP OF THE HEAP. ROAD TRANSPORT WAS THE LARGEST SINGLE INVESTMENT CATEGORY, AVERAGE $700 PER PERSON. THE LOWEST SPEND WAS ON HOSPITAL INVESTMENT AT HUNDRED $40 PER CAPITA, DESPITE THE TREND TOWARDS AN AGEING POPULATION. WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT OUR PRIORITIES AS A SOCIETY? DON'T TELL ME WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE; SHOW ME WHAT YOU SPEND IS AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE. THIS REPORT REVEALS SOME OF THAT STUFF, NOT OVER ONE ELECTORAL CYCLE OR TO, BUT OVER GENERATIONS, WHERE WE PUT OUR MONEY. WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRANSPORT IN THE HOSPITAL NUMBERS, IT IS STAGGERING THAT THEY ARE AS LOW AS THEY ARE, BUT THERE ARE NUMBERS FOR THAT. TRANSPORTATION IS AN INPUT AND WE USE IT EVERY DAY, FREIGHT, COMMUTING. SOME PEOPLE MAY NOT VISIT A HOSPITAL FOR DECADES, FINGERS CROSSED. THAT IS ONE PART OF IT. THERE ARE LESS OPTIMISTIC THINGS GOING ON HERE AS WELL. WE HAVE A TENDENCY TO TRY AND BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF THINGS LIKE INJECTION AND THIS. COUNTRY AUCKLAND, DESPITE BILLIONS PUT IN, WE HAVE TRANSPORT SPEEDS THE CLIENT. BUILD FIRST MENTALITY HASN'T GOT US AS FAR AS WE WOULD LIKE. THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY ABOUT HOSPITALS IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW MUCH WE ARE SPENDING AS A PROPORTION OF AGE POPULATION OVER 65, RATHER THAN PER CAPITA, WE HAVE BEEN DECLINING FOR 15 YEARS. THIS IS AN AREA THAT NEEDS MORE ATTENTION. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. WE APPRECIATED. AFTER THE BREAK ` NEW ZEALAND COMMITS $25m IN AID AND WEAPONS FOR UKRAINE. BUT TWO YEARS SINCE THE INVASION, IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR A UKRAINIAN VICTORY? EXACTLY TWO YEARS SINCE THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE, THE GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED AN ADDITIONAL $25M IN AID AND WEAPONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN CAUSE. BUT INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IS FALTERING, AND THIS WEEK, RUSSIAN FORCES MADE THEIR MOST SIGNIFICANT TERRITORIAL GAINS IN 10 MONTHS. ROUBEN AZIZIAN IS A PROFESSOR AT THE CENTRE FOR DEFENCE AND SECURITY STUDIES AT MASSEY UNIVERSITY. HE'S ONE OF THE FIRST VOICES WE SOUGHT IN THE HOURS AFTER THE INVASION. TWO YEARS ON, WE ASKED HIM TO CHARACTERISE WHERE THE WAR IS AT. - I THINK THE WAR HAS GONE THROUGH CYCLES, AND IT HAS GONE THROUGH CYCLES OF PERCEPTIONS, AND MISPERCEPTIONS AS WELL, I THINK. EARLY IN THE WAR, THERE WAS THIS FEAR BY SOME THAT RUSSIA WILL PREVAIL IMMEDIATELY, RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP WAS HOPEFUL OF TAKING OVER SWIFTLY ` THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. AND THAT WAS FOLLOWED BY A PERIOD WHERE THERE WAS PRAISE FOR UKRAINIAN RESISTANCE, UNDERSTANDABLY AND DESERVEDLY. BUT I THINK THERE WAS ALSO THE FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE RUSSIAN ARMY IS TOO WEAK; YOU KNOW, UKRAINIANS WILL SUCCEED VERY, VERY, VERY SOON. AND THEY DID ` ON A COUPLE OF OCCASIONS, THEY WERE ABLE TO FIGHT BACK, AND THE RUSSIANS HAD TO WITHDRAW FROM AREAS OF, YOU KNOW, KHARKIV AND KHERSON ` LAST TIME I WAS HERE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GAINS IN KHERSON. BUT APPARENTLY RUSSIANS HAVE REGROUPED, ORGANISED THEMSELVES. AND SO IT'S NEVER GOOD TO UNDERESTIMATE, AND I THINK WE UNDERESTIMATED THE UKRAINIANS, AND THEN LATER UNDERESTIMATED THE RUSSIANS. AS A RESULT, WE ARE WHERE WE ARE NOW, WHICH IS, SOME CALL IT A STALEMATE ` I WOULDN'T CALL IT A STALEMATE, BECAUSE I THINK STALEMATE IS ALSO WHEN BOTH PARTIES ARE READY TO TALK, BECAUSE THEY DON'T SEE ANY FURTHER PROGRESS. I DON'T THINK WE ARE THERE. I THINK THE UKRAINIANS ARE STILL HOPEFUL OF WINNING, AND THE RUSSIANS ARE VERY ENERGISED ABOUT RECENT SUCCESS IN AVDIIVKA, AND BOTH PARTIES ARE HOPING TO WIN MILITARILY, SO I DON'T THINK THIS IS A STALEMATE. - RIGHT. JUST TALK TO US ABOUT THAT FINAL POINT THERE. BECAUSE IN RECENT MONTHS, AND INDEED IN RECENT DAYS, WE HAVE SEEN A MOMENTUM SHIFT OF SORTS. THE UKRAINIAN OFFENSIVE FAILED IN ITS STATED OBJECTIVES. RUSSIAN FORCES HAVE MADE THEIR MOST SIGNIFICANT TERRITORIAL GAIN SINCE MAY OF LAST YEAR, SO HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT MOMENTUM SHIFT? - IT IS SIGNIFICANT, FOR SURE, BUT I THINK THERE ARE VARIOUS PHASES, BUT ALSO VARIOUS DIMENSIONS OF THE CONFLICT. RIGHT? SO THERE IS A TERRITORIAL, VERY EXHAUSTING, FIGHT GOING ON FOR EVERY INCH OF TERRITORY THERE. THERE, THE RUSSIANS SEEM TO BE PREVAILING. AND TAKING OVER AVDIIVKA IS IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THEM TO MOVE FORWARD. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE SEEING THE RUSSIANS LOSING THEIR BLACK SEA FLEET; THEY'RE LOSING SOME VERY, YOU KNOW, PRECIOUS AIRCRAFT. YOU KNOW, THE EARLY WARNING ` TWO PLANES WERE HIT. AND, VERY IMPORTANTLY, RUSSIAN TERRITORIES ARE UNDER ATTACK. I MEAN, PEOPLE IN BORDER AREAS IN RUSSIA, FOR THE FIRST TIME, ARE FEELING THE IMPACT OF THE WAR. - MM. - SO YOU CAN'T JUST SAY IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT TERRITORY, BECAUSE SOMETIMES, I FIND THAT THERE IS THIS TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ABOUT PEACE ` YOU KNOW, FOR TERRITORIAL COMPROMISE AND PEACE. IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT TERRITORY; IT'S ABOUT SURVIVAL OF A NATION. IT'S ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MR PUTIN'S IMPERIAL AMBITIONS. AND SO, IT'S NOT ONLY FOUGHT IN A LAND AREA; IT'S FOUGHT EVERYWHERE ` AIR, WATER, BUT ALSO PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE AS WELL. - OK. CAN YOU TALK TO US A BIT, A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT POINT? BECAUSE AS SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS RUSSIAN FLUENTLY, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE AS TO THE TONE OF MEDIA, DOMESTICALLY WITHIN RUSSIA, BUT ALSO THE GENERAL SENSE, AS TO PEOPLE'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE CONFLICT? - YEAH, THAT'S A DIFFICULT ONE, BECAUSE I SPEAK RUSSIAN, I READ RUSSIAN MEDIA, I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TO RUSSIA, BUT MANY RUSSIANS DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THEIR COUNTRY AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WAR, BECAUSE A RECENT POLL SHOWED THAT 50% OF RUSSIANS DON'T EVEN FOLLOW NEWS FROM THE FRONT ` THEY EITHER, YOU KNOW, DON'T CARE OR THEY ARE TIRED. SO, DEFINITELY, THE WAR HAS HAD AN IMPACT. WE ARE SEEING GROWING DISCONTENT. I MEAN, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF SIGNS THAT ARE, I THINK, VERY CLEAR THAT MANY RUSSIANS WANT AN END TO THE WAR. THERE'S SOME MOVEMENT OF WIVES OF SOLDIERS, BUT ALSO RECENT, TWO CANDIDATES WHO ARE DISQUALIFIED FOR ELECTIONS ` BOTH WANTED THE END OF THE WAR. AND AMAZINGLY, THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT FOR NADEZHDIN ` HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE GAVE SIGNATURES. BUT IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE. I WOULD SAY THAT THERE ARE RUSSIANS WHO ARE STILL VERY HAWKISH, AND THEY SEE THAT THIS IS A WAR WITH, YOU KNOW, THANKLESS UKRAINE OR THE WEST. BUT THERE ARE MANY WHO, I THINK, ARE FEELING THE IMPACT AND WHO ARE SEEING THE LOSSES. SO, UM, THIS IS DEFINITELY, I THINK, DIVIDING THE RUSSIANS, AND DIVIDING THE RUSSIANS COULD BE A PRELUDE TO SOME SORT OF SOCIAL TENSION AND UNREST IN THE FUTURE, BUT I DON'T SEE ANY SIGNS IMMEDIATELY NOW. I THINK IT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN THE BATTLEFIELD THAT MATTERS MORE. - OVERNIGHT, THE AMERICANS HAVE ANNOUNCED A NEW SERIES OF SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA. WHAT IMPACT ARE THOSE SANCTIONS ACTUALLY HAVING, IN TERMS OF SUPPORT FOR THE WAR IN RUSSIA? - WELL, ACCORDING TO WITNESSES WHO'VE BEEN TO RUSSIA, WELL, THE MAJOR CITIES MOSCOW, SAINT PETERSBURG, I THINK THEY DON'T REALLY SEE MUCH IMPACT OF THE SANCTIONS, BECAUSE THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT HAS LEARNED HOW TO AVOID SANCTIONS. THERE ARE SOME FRIENDLY NATIONS WHO ARE WILLING TO HELP THROUGH, YOU KNOW, TRANSITING SOME IMPORTS AND ALL THAT. AND VERY IMPORTANTLY, RUSSIA IS STILL RECEIVING HUGE REVENUES FROM OIL AND GAS EXPORTS TO CHINA AND INDIA. SO OFTENTIMES WHEN PEOPLE SAY, WHO CAN STOP THE WAR, WE NEED TO LOOK AT COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA AND INDIA, WHO CONTINUE TO FUEL THE ECONOMY, AND ONCE THEY GET THEIR REVENUES, THEY CAN SPEND MONEY ON SUPPORTING THE ECONOMY, STABILITY. SO I THINK THERE IS DEFINITELY, THE NON-LARGE-CITY, YOU KNOW, RURAL AREAS, DISTANT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, PROVINCES FEEL, BECAUSE MOST OF THE SOLDIERS GO FROM THERE, AND THE ECONOMY AND, YOU KNOW, LEVEL OF POVERTY IS GROWING. SO THERE IS DEFINITELY AN ECONOMIC IMPACT, BUT NOT IN THE LARGE CITIES, I THINK. BUT MANY RUSSIANS, I'M SURE, FEEL THE DISCOMFORT OF BEING SOME KIND OF ISOLATED ` LOOK, RUSSIA CANNOT, UH, PARTICIPATE IN ANY INTERNATIONAL SPORTS GAMES, AND IT IS A NATION THAT IS VERY PROUD OF ITS, YOU KNOW, ATHLETIC ACHIEVEMENTS, AND I'M SURE PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, NOT VERY COMFORTABLE WITH THAT. I MEAN, IT'S NOT JUST THE ECONOMIC IMPACT ` IT'S, OVERALL, THE REPUTATIONAL AND OTHER TYPES OF CULTURAL IMPACT, WHERE RUSSIAN CULTURE IS BASICALLY NOT BEING, YOU KNOW, WELCOMED. - OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA, ALEXEI NAVALNY'S DEATH WAS BIG NEWS. HOW DOES THAT CONTRAST TO THE NEWS INTERNALLY WITHIN RUSSIA? AND WHAT IS HIS DEATH LIKELY TO MEAN FOR OPPOSITION TO VLADIMIR PUTIN, COME NEXT MONTH'S ELECTIONS? - WELL, I DON'T EXPECT MUCH REAL OPPOSITION IN THE ELECTION. I THINK EVERYONE IS PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT, UH, MR PUTIN WILL WIN AGAIN. - IT'S A FAIRLY SAFE BET. - YEAH, IT IS. IT IS, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. AND IT'S NOT JUST ` YEAH, IT'S A COMBINATION OF THINGS; I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THE EXTREMES OF, LIKE, THIS WILL BE ALL FALSIFIED AND ONLY BECAUSE IT'S RIGGED, PUTIN WINS. NO, UNFORTUNATELY, HE HAS A SIGNIFICANT GROUP OF SUPPORTERS. BUT DEFINITELY THERE WILL BE, UH, SOME FALSIFYING IN AREAS. AND OFTENTIMES, IT'S THE LOCAL GOVERNORS WHO WANT TO IMPRESS THE BOSS, WITH A NUMBER OF LOYAL PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT IT. BUT INTERESTINGLY, BORIS NADEZHDIN, WHO WAS DISQUALIFIED, HE SAID YESTERDAY, I THINK, THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT, BUT HE WILL USE A DIFFERENT TACTIC. HE WILL NOT USE ALEXEI NAVALNY'S TACTIC, WHICH WAS VERY MUCH PUTTING PRESSURE ON PUTIN PERSONALLY, EXPOSING HIS CORRUPTION DEALS AND ALL THAT ` NADEZHDIN SAID, 'NO, NO, I WILL TAKE 'THE LEGAL KIND OF PROCESS, SO I WILL WIN THROUGH THE BALLOT.' NOW, SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY HE'S NAIVE ` THERE'S NO WAY IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. I THINK RIGHT NOW, THE WIDOW, YULIA NAVALNAYA, IS GATHERING A LOT OF SUPPORT. SHE'S A VERY STRONG WOMAN, AND I THINK WE ARE SEEING SIGNS OF OPPOSITION WHO IS ALWAYS, UNFORTUNATELY, BEEN DIVIDED ` HE'S STARTING TO PULL RANKS BEHIND HER. AND A POWERFUL WOMAN WHO LOST HER HUSBAND IN CHARGE COULD BE A STRONG SIGNAL. AND THIS IS WHY WE SEE THAT THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP IS VERY WORRIED ABOUT PUBLIC FUNERAL OF NAVALNY, BECAUSE THAT COULD ATTRACT LARGE CROWDS. - I READ AN AMAZING PIECE OF REPORTAGE THIS WEEK THAT SUGGESTED ARTILLERY HAS ACCOUNTED FOR ABOUT 80% OF THE CASUALTIES IN THE WAR SO FAR, BUT THAT IN RECENT TIMES, RUSSIA HAS BEEN FIRING ABOUT FIVE ARTILLERY SHELLS FOR EVERY SHELL UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE BEEN FIRING. OF COURSE, THAT COMES DOWN TO THE UKRAINIAN FORCES, IN THEIR VIEW, BEING INSUFFICIENTLY ARMED. HOW MUCH, THEN, DOES NOVEMBER'S U.S. ELECTION LOOM OVER THIS CONFLICT? - RIGHT. I MEAN, AND WE ARE PARTICULARLY TALKING ABOUT MR TRUMP POTENTIALLY WINNING THE ELECTION, RIGHT? - AND POTENTIALLY CUTTING OFF SUPPORT TO UKRAINE FORCES. - OH, CUTTING OFF SUPPORT, RIGHT. YOU KNOW, MR PUTIN RECENTLY SAID, BETWEEN THE TWO CANDIDATES, HE THOUGHT THAT BIDEN WAS A MORE, YOU KNOW, PREDICTABLE AND VERY TRADITIONAL AND EXPERIENCED LEADER. IN RETURN, MR BIDEN CALLED HIM A SON OF A BITCH. SO THAT'S AN INTERESTING DIPLOMATIC EXCHANGE WE ARE SEEING, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY HE PRAISED BIDEN AGAINST TRUMP ` WHETHER HE WAS TEASING BIDEN; PERHAPS, PERHAPS. THERE IS ALSO SOME CONCERN IN THE KREMLIN THAT WHILE TRUMP MAY PERSONALLY LIKE PUTIN AND MAY WANT A MEETING WITH HIM AND MAY SLOW DOWN SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, BUT TRUMP IS ALSO A VERY STAUNCH NATIONALIST, OR AT LEAST HE PRETENDS TO BE, AND THAT MAY NOT BE IN RUSSIA'S FAVOUR. SO WHATEVER HAPPENS, THE U.S. IS OUT, I THINK EUROPE IS STEPPING UP. WE ARE SEEING THAT EUROPEANS FOR THE FIRST TIME ARE STARTING TO TAKE SERIOUSLY THAT DEFENCE AND SECURITY, AND WE ARE SEEING THAT. I BELIEVE EVEN NEW ZEALAND HAS STEPPED IN NOW AND INCREASED ITS SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, GIVEN THAT THERE IS A DELAY IN AMERICAN AID. SO, YES, ELECTIONS COULD AFFECT, BUT UKRAINIANS STILL WANT THEIR COUNTRY BACK, AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT. IT WILL MAYBE TAKE LONGER, THERE WILL BE MORE LOSSES AND MORE, YOU KNOW, FRUSTRATION, BUT I DON'T THINK THIS WILL BE THE DECIDING THING IN THE WAR; THE ADMINISTRATION CHANGE WILL NOT BE THE DECIDING FACTOR. - PROFESSOR, WE ALWAYS APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND INSIGHTS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. - THANK YOU, JACK. THANK YOU. STAY WITH US ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. IT'S ALMOST TIME FOR US TO FINISH FOR THIS WEEK, AND WE WANTED TO GIVE THE FINAL WORD TO FA'ANANA EFESO COLLINS. AS A NEW LIST MP FOR THE GREEN PARTY, EFESO DELIVERED HIS MAIDEN SPEECH JUST LAST WEEK. IF I WAS TO INSPIRE ANYONE BY GETTING TO THIS HOUSE AND MY WORK OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS, I HOPE THAT IT'S THE SQUARE PEGS, THE MISFITS, THE FORGOTTEN, THE UNLOVED, THE INVISIBLE. IT'S THE DREAMERS WHO WANT MORE, EXPECT MORE, ARE IMPATIENT FOR CHANGE AND HAVE THIS UNCANNY ABILITY TO STRETCH US FURTHER. AS WELL AS AN MP AND FORMER COUNCILLOR, EFESO WAS A FRIEND OF THIS SHOW. HE APPEARED IN THIS STUDIO AND AT THIS DESK MANY TIMES, AND WE WERE ALWAYS REALLY GRATEFUL FOR HIS TIME AND CONTRIBUTIONS. TODAY WE ARE THINKING OF HIS WIFE, HIS DAUGHTERS AND HIS FAMILY. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. HEI TERA WIKI. CAPTIONS BY KRISTIN WILLIAMS AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR.