CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. PIKI MAI, KAKE MAI. KIA ORA E TE IWI, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GUYON ESPINER. MOST DAYS YOU'LL CATCH ME ON RADIO NEW ZEALAND. TODAY I'M IN FOR JACK TAME. ON THE SHOW TODAY ` WHEN IT COMES TO CREATING REAL WEALTH FOR NEW ZEALAND, WHAT DOES BUSINESS ACTUALLY NEED? THE BUSINESSES THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL IN THE FUTURE ARE GOING TO SURPRISE US. THEY'LL BE IN, YOU KNOW, OBSCURE NICHES THAT YOU COULD NEVER PREDICT ` WHICH IS ACTUALLY EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENED. AND WE MEET AN MP TRYING TO BAN A HARMFUL PRACTICE WHICH IS USED ON WOMEN. IT IS NOT A CULTURAL PRACTICE. IT IS ONE ROOTED IN PATRIARCHY. BUT WE BEGIN TODAY WITH THE GEOPOLITICAL EARTHQUAKE THAT HAS SHAKEN THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN MANY OF THE COUNTRIES NEW ZEALAND CONSIDERS CLOSE FRIENDS. U.S. VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE HAS BEEN ON WHATEVER THE OPPOSITE OF A CHARM OFFENSIVE IS ACROSS EUROPE, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE IT CLEAR HIS GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE A DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT POLICY ON UKRAINE. SO IF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. AND EUROPE IS BREAKING DOWN, HOW PRECARIOUS IS NEW ZEALAND'S POSITION? YESTERDAY, I SAT DOWN WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION'S AMBASSADOR TO NEW ZEALAND, LAWRENCE MEREDITH. I BEGAN BY ASKING HIM HOW THE EU FEELS ABOUT THE WAY AMERICA IS TRYING TO HALT THE WAR IN UKRAINE. WELL, THE EUROPEAN UNION IS STRONGLY COMMITTED TO A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE FOR UKRAINE. BUT WE BELIEVE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE. AND THAT'S NOT HAPPENING, IS IT? I MEAN, THEY'VE BEEN SIDELINED. WHAT` AS I SAY, FOR THE PEACE TO BE JUST AND LASTING, WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT UKRAINE NEEDS TO BE PART OF THAT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT REACHING A SETTLEMENT ` IT HAS TO BE A SETTLEMENT THAT LASTS, IF PEACE IS TO BE GUARANTEED, AND WE, AS THE EUROPEAN UNION, STRONGLY BELIEVE 'NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE'. SO HOW DO YOU FEEL, THEN, ABOUT PUTIN AND TRUMP TALKING AND NEGOTIATING WITHOUT ANY REGARD TO UKRAINE? IN FACT, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT UKRAINE IS NOT A VERY IMPORTANT PLAYER IN THIS. WELL, LET'S GO BACK A MOMENT, BECAUSE I THINK, YOU KNOW, THREE YEARS AGO ` AND IT'LL BE THE ANNIVERSARY OF RUSSIA'S BRUTAL AND ILLEGAL INVASION OF UKRAINE ON MONDAY ` I REMEMBER EVERYBODY PREDICTING UKRAINE WILL FOLD QUICKLY, IN A FEW DAYS, EUROPEAN UNION WON'T BE UNITED ` NOW WE ROLL ON, THREE YEARS LATER, WE SEE VERY, VERY CLEARLY UKRAINE IS FIGHTING BRAVELY, FIGHTING RESOLUTELY, AND THE EUROPEAN UNION IS NOT ONLY UNITED, BUT WE'VE HAD 15 PACKAGES OF SANCTIONS, WE'LL SHORTLY AGREE ON THE 16TH PACKAGE, AND THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY IS REALLY CRUMBLING. WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT, AND ABOUT EUROPE'S ROLE IN THAT SHORTLY, BUT` YES, YOU'VE DONE ALL THAT, BUT NOW WE GET TO THE CRUX, AND THERE ARE NEGOTIATIONS TO END THE WAR, AND IT LOOKS LIKE UKRAINE ITSELF HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN LEFT OUT SO FAR, AND THE EUROPEAN UNION LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN MADE REDUNDANT. IS THAT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE WAY IT'S BEEN PLAYED? NO, I DON'T SEE IT LIKE THAT AT ALL. WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT NOW, AS I SAY, IS THE UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING BRAVELY AND RESOLUTELY. THIS NEEDS TO BE A PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH, AND THE EUROPEAN UNION IS STRONGLY COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING UKRAINE'S POSITION ` WE'RE THE LARGEST DONOR WITH 135B EUROS, WE'VE PROVIDED VERY SUBSTANTIAL MILITARY ASSISTANCE OURSELVES, AND WE'RE COMMITTING TO HELPING UKRAINE THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS. CAN UKRAINE KEEP FIGHTING WITHOUT THE MONEY THAT AMERICA IS PUTTING IN? BECAUSE THAT WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE IN DOUBT IF THE TERMS OF THE NEGOTIATIONS DON'T GO THEIR WAY. WELL, AS I SAY, UKRAINE'S FOUGHT BRAVELY AND RESOLUTELY ALREADY FOR THREE YEARS; WE ARE, BY FAR, THE LARGEST SUPPORTER ` WE'RE PROVIDING JUST AS MUCH MILITARY ASSISTANCE AS THE UNITED STATES, SO WE ARE EQUIPPING THEM WITH WHAT THEY NEED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION, BUT ALSO DEFENCE SYSTEMS. I THINK` AND YOU'LL SEE THE EUROPEAN UNION REALLY STEP UP TO THE MARK TO HELP UKRAINE EVEN MORE SHORTLY, I AM VERY SURE OF THAT. SO COULD UKRAINE KEEP FIGHTING WITHOUT THE AMERICAN MONEY? I THINK UKRAINE IS` THIS IS ABOUT` FOR UKRAINIANS, THIS IS THEIR LAND, AND I THINK ALL OF US, WHETHER WE'RE IN NEW ZEALAND OR THE EUROPEAN UNION ` THIS IS ABOUT VALUES. IT'S COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE FOR PUTIN'S RUSSIA TO BRUTALLY AND ILLEGALLY INVADE. THAT'S A TOTAL BREACH OF THE UNITED NATIONS' INTERNATIONAL CHARTER. SO UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LAND, FOR THEIR FREEDOM, FOR THEIR DEMOCRACY AND FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE. AND YOU'VE GOT THE LEADER OF THE WORLD'S BIGGEST SUPERPOWER SAYING, 'WELL, MAYBE UKRAINE STARTED THE WAR.' HE'S FALSELY ALLEGED THAT, HASN'T HE? SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE YOU? CAN YOU DEAL WITH SOMEONE LIKE THAT? WELL, I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT IT WAS PUTIN'S RUSSIA THAT INVADED UKRAINE ON THE 24TH OF FEBRUARY 2022. TRAGICALLY, WE REACH A THIRD-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THAT, BUT THE UKRAINIANS ARE STILL FIGHTING BRAVELY AND RESOLUTELY. YOU CAN SEE IT ON THE THE LINES OF` THERE HAVE BEEN NO SUBSTANTIAL MOVEMENTS IN THE LINES FOR QUITE SOME TIME, AND THAT'S AMAZING WHEN YOU THINK OF WHAT PEOPLE WERE PREDICTING AS THE WAR BROKE OUT. BUT IS IT REALISTIC NOW FOR UKRAINE TO EXPEL RUSSIA BACK TO THE BOUNDARIES THAT EXISTED PRE-INVASION? LOOK AT IT FROM THE UKRAINIAN PERSPECTIVE. THIS IS THEIR LAND. AND I THINK WHETHER YOU'RE A NEW ZEALANDER` IMAGINE HOW ONE WOULD FEEL IF SOMEBODY CAME ON TO THE TERRITORY OF NEW ZEALAND. YOU WANT YOUR TERRITORY BACK. THIS IS UKRAINIAN LAND. NOBODY DOUBTS THAT. THERE IS INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND THE UKRAINIANS` THAT'S WHY THE UKRAINIANS WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR LAND, FOR THEIR FREEDOM, FOR THEIR PEOPLE AND FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE. IF THERE IS A PEACE NEGOTIATED, WHAT ROLE WOULD YOU EXPECT THE EU TO PLAY IN TERMS OF PEACEKEEPING FORCES? WELL, THAT, OF COURSE, IS A DECISION FOR THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER STATES OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. WHAT I WOULD SAY HERE IS 23 MEMBER STATES OF THE EUROPEAN UNION ARE ALSO MEMBERS OF NATO, AND THE EUROPEAN UNION IS REALLY SUBSTANTIALLY STEPPING UP ITS SPENDING ON DEFENCE. WE KNOW WE NEED TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EUROPEAN SECURITY, AND OF COURSE, THE FIRST MOVE IN THAT IS ABOUT UKRAINE. THERE IS A WAR ON THE BORDERS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. THERE'S A WAR IN UKRAINE, AND WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE IN THE FIRST INSTANCE TO SHORE UP UKRAINE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT WHETHER EU MEMBER STATES, AND INDEED NATO STATES, ARE PAYING ENOUGH ON DEFENCE. 2% HAD BEEN` 2% OF GDP HAD BEEN THE BENCHMARK, TRUMP NOW TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLY 5% IN TERMS OF A PERCENTAGE OF GDP. IS THAT SORT OF NUMBER REALISTIC? IS THAT THE SORT OF THING THAT EU MEMBERS COULD COMMIT TO? WELL, I THINK BOTH PRESIDENT VON DER LEYEN, PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, AND MARK RUTTE, THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO, HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY CLEAR ` EUROPE NEEDS TO INVEST MORE AND INVEST BETTER, AND THAT MEANS` THAT DOESN'T MEAN A EUROPEAN ARMY, THAT MEANS THE EUROPEAN ARMIES WE HAVE WORKING BETTER AND MORE EFFECTIVELY TOGETHER. I KNOW THAT HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, THE ISSUE OF INTEROPERABILITY IS A KEY POINT. THAT'S ALSO FOR US ` WE WANT GREATER INTEROPERABILITY. DOES IT ALSO MEAN SPENDING A LOT MORE, THOUGH? IT DEFINITELY MEANS SPENDING MORE. WE WILL CLEARLY HAVE TO GO, UM... TO COMMIT TO SPEND CONSIDERABLY MORE, THAT'S` THAT'S FOR SURE. AND PRESIDENT VON DER LEYEN'S MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO. DO YOU HAVE METRICS? I MEAN, IS 5% OF GDP A SORT OF REALISTIC TARGET? NO, THIS IS A DISCUSSION THAT MEMBER STATES ARE GOING TO TAKE. I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO COMMIT CLEARLY TO INVESTING MORE AND SPENDING BETTER, AND THAT MEANS MORE JOINT PROCUREMENT, THAT MEANS RATCHETING UP THE AMMUNITION ` WE'VE ALREADY DELIVERED ONE MILLION AMMUNITIONS FOR UKRAINE. PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WASN'T POSSIBLE AT THE BEGINNING, BUT WE'VE ALREADY DELIVERED THAT AND WE'RE GOING FURTHER. MM. YOU SPOKE A FEW MINUTES AGO IN THE INTERVIEW ABOUT RUSSIA'S ECONOMY BEING IN TROUBLE, BUT YOU LOOK AT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES BUYING RECORD LEVELS OF LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS FROM RUSSIA, ALONG WITH OTHER FOSSIL FUELS ` I MEAN, IS THIS EFFECTIVELY EUROPE PROPPING UP PUTIN'S WAR CHEST? NO, LISTEN ` WE'VE ALREADY HAD 15 PACKAGES OF SANCTIONS, THERE WILL SHORTLY BE A 16TH PACKAGE OF SANCTIONS, AND THAT'S HAVING A MAJOR EFFECT ` INTEREST RATES RUNNING AROUND 20%, THEY'RE HAVING MAJOR LAYOFFS IN RUSSIAN COMPANIES. OF COURSE, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PUT THAT OUT AS THEIR MESSAGE, BUT OUR ANALYSIS SHOWS IT'S EXTREMELY WEAK AND FRAGILE, THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, AND THEY'RE DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR OTHER ROUTES FOR OIL AND GAS, BECAUSE WE'VE MASSIVELY CHANGED OUR USE, AND UKRAINE ARE COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT FROM` WHEREAS BEFORE THEY WERE HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON RUSSIAN OIL AND GAS. WILL UKRAINE BE ABLE TO JOIN THE EU? THEY APPLIED ` WHAT, THREE YEARS AGO, RIGHT? PRETTY MUCH. WELL, PRESIDENT VON DER LEYEN AGAIN HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT WE LOOK FORWARD TO WELCOMING UKRAINE IN THE EUROPEAN FAMILY. THERE'S A WELL-KNOWN PROCESS ` WE CALL IT ENLARGEMENT, OF STEPS OF REFORMS. BUT WE'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE DESTINATION, AND THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE, BY THE WAY ` WE'RE LOOKING ALSO ACROSS THE WESTERN BALKANS, SO THERE IS A PROCESS OF CONSOLIDATING THE EUROPEAN UNION. IT'S STILL A POLE OF ATTRACTION, THE EUROPEAN UNION ` YOU CAN SEE A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES` AND THAT, AS WE SIT HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, IS ABOUT THESE VALUES. IT'S ABOUT COUNTRIES THAT WANT PEOPLE COMMITTED TO DEMOCRACY, THE RULE OF LAW, AND THE RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER ` SOMETHING NEW ZEALANDERS HOLD VERY DEAR TO. WHAT DOES UKRAINE NEED TO DO TO JOIN THE EU? WHAT'S MISSING NOW? THEY'RE THREE YEARS INTO THE APPLICATION. WELL, UKRAINE IS MOVING FORWARD WITH ITS PROCESS. WE` LOOKING FORWARD, THEY ARE TAKING ON THE MAJOR REFORMS. IT'S QUITE INCREDIBLE, BY THE WAY, THAT THE UKRAINIAN STATE IS FUNCTIONING SO EFFECTIVELY DESPITE A STATE OF WAR. I FIND THAT REALLY IMPRESSIVE THAT THEY'VE GOT` THEY'RE MOVING FORWARD ON REFORMS, THEY'VE GOT` TACKLING ISSUES RELATED TO RULE OF LAW. IT'S A LONG PROCESS. WE KNOW THAT. THERE ARE MANY WESTERN BALKAN COUNTRIES WHO APPLIED CONSIDERABLY EARLIER, AND UKRAINE HAS REALLY ACCELERATED ITS REFORM PROCESS. WHAT'S THE EU POSITION ON UKRAINE JOINING NATO? IS THAT REALISTIC? LISTEN, THAT'S A DECISION FOR NATO MEMBERS TO MAKE, BUT I MEAN, THE POINT HERE IS UKRAINE IS A EUROPEAN STATE AND IT'S ACTING IN ITS OWN SOVEREIGN RIGHT, SO THIS IS AN ISSUE WHERE ANY EUROPEAN COUNTRY CAN APPLY TO JOIN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEN IT'S UP FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION TO DECIDE WHEN THEY MAY BE READY AND IF THEY'RE READY TO RECEIVE IT. BECAUSE THE U.S. HAS SAID, AND IN FACT, THE DEFENCE SECRETARY, PETE HEGSETH, SAYS THAT THE U.S. WOULD NOT SUPPORT A UKRAINE BID TO JOIN NATO. WHAT IS THE EU'S POSITION ON THAT? I THINK THIS IS A PROCESS WHERE UKRAINE HAS TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS ITS SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO JOIN. THEN IT'S UP FOR THE INDIVIDUAL NATO MEMBERS TO DISCUSS, TO LOOK AT THE PROCESS ` WE HAVE TO SEE WHERE WE GET TO. QUITE CLEARLY, THE PRIORITY NOW IS FOR UKRAINE TO PREVAIL IN THIS AWFUL CONFLICT. AND THIS IS SOMETHING, AS I'VE SAID, THE EUROPEAN UNION'S STRONGLY COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING. HAVE YOU BEEN SURPRISED AT THE WAY THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS HANDLED THIS SO FAR? WELL, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN ONE ADMINISTRATION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP. WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT HERE IS THE EUROPEAN UNION AND UNITED STATES ARE VERY LONG-STANDING ALLIES. THE UNITED STATES IS ONE OF THE CLOSEST ALLIES WE HAVE. IN TERMS OF TRADE, FOR EXAMPLE` ARE THEY BEHAVING LIKE AN ALLY? UM... WHAT'S IMPORTANT HERE IS THE LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIP. WE HAVE 1.5 TRILLION EUROS OF TRADE BETWEEN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED STATES, AND WE BELIEVE ` AND WE'VE JUST HAD COMMISSIONER SEFCOVIC IN WASHINGTON, DC, OUR TRADE COMMISSIONER, TALKING ABOUT WE'RE REALLY COMMITTED TO COOPERATION. THAT'S OUR PREFERENCE. SURE ` BUT ARE THEY ACTING LIKE AN ALLY AT THE MOMENT UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION? WELL, LET'S STILL LOOK AT THE FACTS. THE UNITED STATES IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF UKRAINE AND HAS PROVIDED AS MUCH MILITARY SUPPORT AS THE EUROPEAN UNION. WE'LL SEE WHERE IT GOES FROM THERE. BUT THE GAME HAS CHANGED. I MEAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CALLED ZELENSKY A DICTATOR. HE SAID THAT UKRAINE STARTED THE WAR. HE SAID THAT THEY'RE UNIMPORTANT IN ANY NEGOTIATIONS AND HE'S HELD A 90-MINUTE PHONE CALL WITH PUTIN, AND THEY SEEM TO BE TRYING TO KNOCK THIS OUT THEMSELVES. SO, MY QUESTION IS, IS AMERICA ACTING LIKE AN ALLY OR AN ADVERSARY TO THE EU? I DON'T THINK WE SEE IT IN THOSE TERMS. I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT HERE IS TO STAY FOCUSED ON WHERE WE WANT TO GET. WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IS THE EUROPEAN UNION WILL WORK WITH UKRAINE TOWARDS A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE. WE HOPE TO CONVINCE AS MANY ALLIES AS POSSIBLE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT, AND ABOVE ALL, AND THIS IS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY'S VIEW ALSO, THAT THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE ` I COME BACK TO THAT, BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF OBVIOUS THAT IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF UKRAINE, UKRAINE NEEDS TO BE AT THE TABLE. AND THEY'RE NOT. THEY'RE NOT AT ALL THE TABLES, THAT'S TRUE, BUT WE HOLD THE VIEW, AS DOES PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, THAT FOR THE TERMS OF A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE, UKRAINE WILL NEED TO BE AT THE TABLE. THAT'S OUR VIEW, AND I'M PRETTY SURE THAT WE WOULD ALL HOLD THE VIEW THAT IF IT'S ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THAT COUNTRY, THAT COUNTRY HAS TO BE PRESENT IN THOSE NEGOTIATIONS. THAT'S INTERESTING. SO ANYTHING THAT IS... WORKED OUT BETWEEN PUTIN AND TRUMP IN THOSE TALKS ` THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE ACCEPTED IF UKRAINE IS NOT PART OF THAT. WELL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT DOES IT TAKE FOR A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE. SO THE FIRST` TO TAKE YOUR EXAMPLE, WE'D HAVE TO LOOK ` IS IT GOING TO BE JUST AND LASTING? AND FROM NOT ONLY FROM A EUROPEAN UNION PERSPECTIVE, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM A UKRAINIAN PERSPECTIVE, THEY DON'T SEE THAT AS BEING POSSIBLE WITHOUT UKRAINE BEING AT THE TABLE. AND I'D BE PRETTY SURPRISED IF NEW ZEALANDERS TOOK A DIFFERENT VIEW EITHER. IN TERMS OF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS, THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME TRANSACTIONAL STUFF GOING ON HERE TOO, WITH DONALD TRUMP SUGGESTING THAT THE U.S. GET` WHAT, 50% OWNERSHIP OF UKRAINE'S RARE-EARTH MINERALS TO REIMBURSE IT FOR THE MILITARY HARDWARE AND FUNDING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN PUT IN. DO YOU THINK THAT'S A REALISTIC DEMAND? I STAY COMMITTED TO THIS VISION OF WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE, AND THE PRIORITY HERE IS PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH. FROM A EUROPEAN UNION PERSPECTIVE, WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE SUPPORTING UKRAINE, BOTH WITH WHAT IT NEEDS TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON, TO KEEP THE WAGES AND PENSIONS PAID, TO KEEP THE HOSPITALS RUNNING, THE KIDS AT SCHOOL ` THAT'S OUR PRIORITY, BUT ALSO VERY SUBSTANTIAL MILITARY SUPPORT ` ALREADY AS MUCH AS THE AMERICANS HAVE PUT IN, AND WE'RE READY TO GO FURTHER. YOU'VE TOUCHED ON A COUPLE OF TIMES ABOUT VALUES, AND APPEAL TO NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE, AS A SMALL COUNTRY, WE DEPEND ON THE WORLD ORDER, RIGHT? (CHUCKLES) WE'RE NOT GOING TO WIN ANY CONTEST AGAINST STRONGER NATIONS. ARE WE WITNESSING THE DEATH OF THE RULES-BASED ORDER, DO YOU THINK? NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT, I THINK, UM... ONE THING THAT I FOUND IN THE FIRST YEAR THAT I'VE BEEN HERE IN NEW ZEALAND IS HOW STRONG A SENSE YOU HAVE OF VALUES ` FIRST COUNTRY FOR WOMEN TO GET THE VOTE IN 1893, VERY STRONG COMMITMENTS TO DEMOCRACY, TO THE RULE OF LAW, FREEDOM AND JUSTICE - AND THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT. WE'VE GOT TO SEE RESPECT FOR THE UNITED NATIONS' INTERNATIONAL CHARTER. YOU KNOW, THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS FORGED OUT OF THE ASHES OF TWO HORRIFIC WORLD WARS. AT THAT POINT, THE UNITED STATES WERE ONE OF OUR VERY CLOSEST ALLIES, AND I THINK WE ALL UNDERSTAND ` MANY KIWIS TRAGICALLY DIED FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM IN EUROPE. WE ALSO HOLD VERY DEAR THE SACRIFICES THAT OVER A CENTURY NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE MADE, AND THEY CONTINUE TO SHOW STEADFAST SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE ` PRECISELY BECAUSE NEW ZEALANDERS, LIKE EUROPEANS, BELIEVE IN THESE VALUES OF FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND PEACE. SURE, THAT'S THE HOPE, BUT THE REALITY LOOKS QUITE A LOT DIFFERENT WHEN YOU LOOK AT TRUMP, AND SORT OF A DEGLOBALISING OR ANTI-MULTILATERALISM SORT OF STANCE THAT HE'S PRESIDING OVER. WELL, WE'RE VERY CLEAR ON THE SIDE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION THAT COOPERATION IS THE WAY TO GO FORWARD, THAT WE ARE DEFINITELY STRONGER TOGETHER, AND THAT FREE AND OPEN TRADE IS IN THE DNA OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. WE SAW JD VANCE ISSUE A SPEECH TO EUROPEAN LEADERS, WHERE HE ACCUSED THOSE LEADERS OF BASICALLY SHUTTING DOWN VOICES FROM THE RIGHT, INCLUDING THE FAR RIGHT. WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT SPEECH? WELL, AS I SAY, THIS IS ALL ABOUT DEMOCRACY, AND ACROSS THE EUROPEAN UNION, WE HAVE 27 FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACIES. PEOPLE EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS, VOTERS GO TO THE POLLS ` THAT'LL BE THE CASE IN GERMANY TOMORROW. SO I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WE HAVE A CLEAR AND FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY. YOU MENTION GERMAN ELECTIONS ` I MEAN, THE LEADER OF THE CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC UNION, WHO'S POSSIBLY ODDS-ON TO BE THE NEXT CHANCELLOR, HAS TALKED ABOUT HOW GERMANY MAY NEED TO SEEK NUCLEAR SECURITY FROM FRANCE AND PERHAPS THE UK. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE THEY SEE THE GEOPOLITICS AT THE MOMENT? WELL, YOU KNOW, GERMANY IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PLAYER IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, AND WE WE STAND UNITED OVER THIS ISSUE OF UKRAINE, AND IN TERMS OF HOW WE` EACH MEMBER STATE IS FREE TO DISCUSS HOW IT APPROACHES ITS OWN ENERGY, ITS OWN SECURITY. THAT'S A MATTER FOR THEM TO DECIDE. IS THAT SOMETHING` A NEW POSITION, THOUGH, FOR THEM, OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE BEEN PRIVY TO IN THE DISCUSSIONS THAT YOU'VE HAD? UM` NO, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I'M IN A POSITION TO COMMENT ON. IN TERMS OF... GETTING BACK TO NEW ZEALAND AND ANY ROLE THAT IT CAN PLAY IN ANY OF THESE MOVES ` WE SAW THE PRIME MINISTER, CHRISTOPHER LUXON, AND, INDEED, THE OPPOSITION LEADER TOO, TALK ABOUT BEING OPEN TO SENDING PEACEKEEPERS IN ANY POST-NEGOTIATION PEACE THAT WAS ABLE TO BE SETTLED ON. IS IT THE TIME TO BE TALKING ABOUT THAT NOW, AND HOW WAS THAT RECEIVED? WELL, I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT HERE - LET'S TALK ABOUT TWO PHASES OF THIS. FIRST, THE PRIORITY IS` HAS TO BE, AND I KEEP SAYING THIS ` TO REACH A COMPREHENSIVE, JUST AND LASTING PEACE, FOR WHICH, I KEEP REITERATING, UKRAINE NEEDS TO BE AT THE TABLE. ONCE WE WOULD GET THERE, AND WE HOPE WE DO GET THERE TO A JUST AND LASTING PEACE, YOU WILL NEED SECURITY GUARANTEES, AND THE POINT HERE IS A NUMBER OF MEMBER STATES, BUT ALSO THE UK GOVERNMENT, HAVE BEEN CLEAR OF A READINESS TO ENSURE, ONCE THERE WOULD BE SUCH A PEACE, TO PROVIDE SUCH GUARANTEES. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ISSUE IS HERE. OK, LET'S FINISH ON TRADE, AND NEW ZEALAND AND THE EU HAVE A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT. IT'S A BIT AGAINST THE RUN OF PLAY AT THE MOMENT, ISN'T IT? WE'RE NOT SEEING A LOT OF APPETITE FOR FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS. ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT, AND ABOUT THE DEMISE IN THE CLOUT OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION? WE'LL SHORTLY COME UP TO THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION'S FREE TRADE AGREEMENT WITH NEW ZEALAND. THE FIRST THING I WANT TO SAY IS THAT HAD THE HIGHEST APPROVAL RATING OF ANY FREE TRADE AGREEMENT BY THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT WHEN THEY VOTED FOR ITS RATIFICATION. AND SECONDLY, IT'S GOT A REALLY IMPORTANT PART, WHICH IS OUTREACH TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ` IN THIS CASE, THE MAORI PEOPLE. SO IT'S AN AMBITIOUS, SUSTAINABLE TRADE DEAL. YOU SAY THAT'S GONE OUT OF FASHION ` I DON'T AGREE. WE'VE JUST HAD COMMISSIONER SEFCOVIC IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF MONTHS, AND THEN WE'VE MANAGED TO CONCLUDE WITH MEXICO, MERCOSUR, ALSO SWITZERLAND; WE'VE REOPENED NEGOTIATIONS WITH MALAYSIA. WE'VE GOT ONGOING NEGOTIATIONS WITH INDIA, WITH THAILAND, INDONESIA ` THERE'S A LOT HAPPENING. PHILIPPINES` I JUST WANTED TO TOUCH ON ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF DETAIL FROM THAT AGREEMENT WITH NEW ZEALAND AND THE EU, AND THAT IS THIS CLIMATE CHANGE CLAUSE, WHICH SAYS THAT THE COMMITMENT TO RESPECT THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT IS SUBJECT TO TRADE SANCTIONS IN CASE OF MATERIAL BREACHES. SO WOULD THAT MEAN IF NEW ZEALAND` AND THIS HAS BEEN SPECULATED ON BY ACT PARTY LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR, WHO'S SOON TO BECOME THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ` HE'S TALKED ABOUT WHETHER NEW ZEALAND MIGHT PULL OUT OF PARIS IN THE FUTURE. IF IT DID SO, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN TERMS OF THAT AGREEMENT? WELL, I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT HERE IS EXACTLY, AS YOU SAY, GUYON ` NEW ZEALAND AND EUROPEAN UNION ARE AMAZINGLY LIKE-MINDED, SO WE'RE BOTH STRONGLY COMMITTED TO NET ZERO BY 2050, AND THAT'S WHAT'S ENSHRINED IN THIS AGREEMENT. AND I THINK THAT SHOWS THE WORLD` THERE'S NO PLANET B. SO... I'M NOT CALLING OUT SCIENTISTS. THE SCIENTISTS ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE CRISIS OF GLOBAL WARMING, WHICH IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO ENSHRINE IN INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS THE CLIMATE DIMENSION. AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, THOUGH, IF THERE WAS A MATERIAL BREACH OF THE PARIS AGREEMENT? WE'RE NOT GOING DOWN HYPOTHETICALS ` WERE WE ARE TODAY IS` IT'S THE OTHER WAY ROUND. WHERE WE ARE TODAY IS` IT'S THE OTHER WAY ROUND. WE REACHED THIS AGREEMENT, MUTUALLY, OF COURSE, BECAUSE WE'RE BOTH COMMITTED TO SUSTAINABILITY, BECAUSE NEW ZEALAND AND THE EUROPEAN UNION ARE COMMITTED TO NET ZERO BY 2050. SO THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PART, IN THESE CHALLENGING TIMES, OF TWO PARTNERS SAYING, 'THIS REALLY MATTERS.' THEY ARE CHALLENGING TIMES, AREN'T THEY? AS AN EU AMBASSADOR, WHAT KEEPS YOU UP AT NIGHT? WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT HERE ` I'M REALLY ENJOYING MY POSTING TO NEW ZEALAND. I SEE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO DEVELOP AN ALLIANCE WITH A VERY, VERY LIKE-MINDED PARTNER. SO THAT'S WHAT I FIND EXCITING ABOUT MY POSTING HERE. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THE LATEST CHILD POVERTY STATS SHOW NO CHANGE, BUT IS THAT ACTUALLY TRUE? NEW FIGURES SHOW MORE THAN 150,000 NEW ZEALAND CHILDREN LIVE IN CONDITIONS DEFINED AS MATERIAL HARDSHIP. STATS NZ FIGURES RELEASED OVER THE WEEK SHOW NONE OF THE THREE TARGETS ON REDUCING CHILD POVERTY HAVE BEEN MET. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS IS THE REAL CULPRIT, BUT WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE DOING TO FIX THIS? WE'RE JOINED BY SARITA DIVIS, THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE 'CHILD POVERTY ACTION GROUP'. KIA ORA, GOOD MORNING. NUMBERS THAT WERE OUT THIS WEEK, WHAT IS A VERY BIG PICTURE? HOW DID YOU PERCEIVE WHAT CAME OUT THIS WEEK FROM THE GOVERNMENT? FIRSTLY, I WANT TO SAY HOW IMPORTANT THOSE STATISTICS ARE. IN 2018, THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE AND THE GOVERNMENT WITH A BIPARTISAN APPROACH HAS SAID THAT WE WANT TO HALF CHILD POVERTY BY 2028, UNDER THESE ANNUAL MEASURES ARE THE WAY THAT WE WILL ENSURE THAT WE WILL REACH THOSE TARGETS. IT IS ACTUALLY SENT IN LEGISLATION, ISN'T IT? STATS NEW ZEALANDERS AND EXCELLENT JOB OF COLLECTING THAT DATA. I THINK THEY GO OUT TO 20,000 PEOPLE IN A SURVEY. WHAT THEY HAVE SAID AROUND THOSE NUMBERS IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO MOVEMENT. BUT THAT IS WHAT IS STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. IN TERMS OF THE REAL NUMBERS AND FOR US AS NEW ZEALANDERS AND FOR THE GOVERNMENT, WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. WHAT IT IS SHOWING IS THAT WE HAVE NOT REACHED ANY OF THOSE THREE TARGETS. WE HAVE FAILED ON ALL THREE OF THOSE. THE OTHER THING IS THAT WHAT WAS HAPPENING AFTER THE LEGISLATION CAME IN, WE WERE SEEING THAT DECREASE IN CHILD POVERTY, AND NOW FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, WE ARE SEEING IT INCREASE. SO THE STATS BEFORE WAS THE FIRST TIME IT WAS INCREASING, AND THESE STATS ARE SHOWING THAT THE INCREASE IS there LET'S FOCUS ON MATERIAL HARDSHIP, BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY MEASURES HERE. IF THEY HOUSEHOLD LACKS SIX OR MORE OF THOSE KEY THINGS, THEY ARE CONSIDERED TO BE A FAMILY IN A MATERIAL HARDSHIP. SO WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? GOING WITHOUT FOOD AND VEGETABLES, AND HEATING? EXACTLY. MATERIAL HARDSHIP IS AN IMPORTANT THING. THE FIRST IS AROUND INCOME BEFORE AND AFTER HOUSING COSTS. THOSE ARE VERY IMPORTANT MEASURES FOURS TO SEE WHERE WE ARE TRACKING. SO FOR YOUNG CHILDREN IN THOSE HOLMES ARE MATERIAL HARDSHIP, WHAT IMPACT DOES THAT HAVE ON THEM ON SUCH A FORMATIVE AGE? IT FLOWS THROUGH TO EDUCATION. FOR EXAMPLE, THE FOOD IN SCHOOLS PROGRAMME IS SO IMPORTANT, THAT IS ONE OF THE LEVERS THAT THE GOVERNMENT COULD USE TO ALLEVIATE MATERIAL HARDSHIP. SO SOME OF THOSE ARE AROUND DO YOU HAVE FRESH FRUIT AND VEGETABLES? WE MUST REMEMBER AS WELL THAT THESE STATISTICS ARE FROM ABOUT A YEAR AGO, SO THERE IS OTHER STATISTICS IN WHAT WE ARE HEARING ON THE GROUND IS CHILD POVERTY IS EVEN WORSE. THE LATEST NEW ZEALAND HEALTH SURVEY SHOWED THAT ONE IN FOUR CHILDREN ARE IN HOUSEHOLDS WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITHOUT FOOD OFTEN OR SOMETIMES. DOES THAT MAKE THE FOOD IN SCHOOLS PROGRAMME MORE IMPORTANT? YES, IT WAS GOOD TO SEE LOUISE UPSTON IN HER PRESS RELEASE` SHE DID REFERENCE IT. SHE WANTED TO ADDRESS IT. WHAT IS BEEN YOUR REACTION TO THESE CUTS? THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A LOT OF TANKS FROM SCHOOLS NOT GETTING THEIR FOOD ON TIME OR COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE QUALITY AND THE NUTRITION. WHAT DOES YOUR GROUP THINK ABOUT THE WEIGHT THIS PROGRAM HAS ROLLED OUT AGAINST THIS BACKDROP AGAINST AT LEAST NO CHANGE IN CHILD POVERTY NUMBERS. NUMBERS? THAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE in tTHE NEXT BUDGET. WE HAVE CAMPAIGNED AROUND AND THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY CAMPAIGNED AROUND THAT FOOD IN SCHOOLS PROGRAMME CONTINUED. IT IS GREAT TO SEE THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT COMMIT TO IT. WITH ONE IN FOUR CHILDREN TO NOT HAVING ENOUGH FOOD, THAT COULD BE THAT THEY DON'T HAVE BREAKFAST AND DINNER, SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT LUNCH THAT THEY RECEIVE IS NUTRITIOUS AND HEALTHY AND DELICIOUS SO THAT THEY DO GET THOSE EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS AND THOSE HEALTH BENEFITS. ISN'T DELIVERING, IN YOUR VIEW, UNDER THE NEW SCHEME? UNDER THE NEW SCHEME, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT DELIVERING, AND I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE LUNCH FOR THREE DOLLARS, PARTICULARLY IF THAT IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE MAIN MEALS FOR THAT CHILD. THAT FLOWS THROUGH TO HEALTH COSTS, LIFE EXPECTANCY, EDUCATION. WE KNOW THAT EDUCATION IS A KEY WAY TO GET THROUGH TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF POVERTY. ONE OF THE OTHER STUDIES THAT CAME OUT SHOWS THAT CHILDREN IN FOOD INSECURE HOUSEHOLDS ARE FOR YEARS BEHIND IN THEIR SCHOOLING. SO IT HAS A BIG IMPACT. I JUST WANTED TO SAY AS WELL THAT WHEN YOU DO PROACTIVE POLICIES LIKE THIS, IT CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. GROWING UP IN A NEW ZEALAND STUDY SHOWED THAT CHILDREN IN FOOD INSECURE HOUSEHOLDS, IF THEY WERE GETTING GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE, THEN ACTUALLY FOUGHT YEARS LATER, THEY WERE ABLE TO GET OUT OF FOOD INSECURITY. THOSE THAT DIDN'T HAVE, UM... SORRY, THAT ASSISTANCE, THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO, SO THAT IS WHY INCOMES ARE SO IMPORTANT. THE GOVERNMENT WILL SAY, AND LOUISE UPSTON TOUCHED ON THIS, THAT IT IS ALL ABOUT THE ECONOMY, THIS IS THE SHADOW OF THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, AND WHEN INFLATION IS HIGH, AND THOSE COSTS ARE RISING, FAMILIES STRUGGLE MORE. DO YOU AGREE THAT THAT IS THE MOST SUBSTANTIAL FACTOR HERE? I HAVE HEARD THAT, AND I HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT IT IS LABOUR'S FAULT, THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED UNDER LABOUR, THAT WE INHERITED. WE ARE PASTORING THE BLAME GAME WHAT HAS HAPPENED, WHO DID IT AND WHY. WHEN WE DO SPECIFIC POLICIES THAT ADDRESS CHILD POVERTY, IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE. IN THE LAST POLICY STATEMENT AROUND THE BUDGET THAT THE GOVERNMENT PUT OUT IN DECEMBER, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ECONOMIC GROWTH AS A WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS ECONOMIC CRISIS, THERE WAS NO MENTION OF A CHILD POVERTY IN THEIR. IN THE CHILD POVERTY REDUCTION ACT, THEY NEED TO ADDRESS THAT. THAT IS WHERE WE ARE DISAPPOINTED. THEY HAVE NOT PUT THAT IN THE BUDGET. WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT HOW` WE CAN'T JUST TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC GROWTH. WE NEED TO LOOK AT HOW THE ECONOMIC GROWTH IS DISTRIBUTED AND WHO BENEFITS FROM IT. WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IS THAT IT IS GOING TO TRICKLE DOWN, AND WHAT WE KNOW FROM THE EVIDENCE, IT ACTUALLY HOOVERS UP. UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY LOOK AT HOW YOU ARE GOING TO ADDRESS CHILD POVERTY AND ALLOCATE THAT ECONOMIC GROWTH, IT IS NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. WE LOOK AT WHAT WE CAN DO, IT IS USEFUL TO KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE AND WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES THEY ARE IN. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE 156,000 CHILDREN IN MATERIAL HARDSHIP, WOULD THEY LARGELY BE IN BENEFIT -DEPENDENT HOUSEHOLDS, OVER BABY THE WORKING POOR? BOTH. THERE WAS A STUDY AROUND THE INCOME ADEQUACY LAST YEAR, AND IT SHOWED THAT PEOPLE ON THE BENEFIT ARE IN... FAMILIES ARE BETWEEN $100 AND $200 IN DEFICIT EVERY WEEK, THAT MEANS THEY ARE RELYING ON FOOD PARCELS, THEY ARE MAYBE SLEEPING IN CARS TO SUPPLEMENT` TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE. THAT IS THE REALITY FOR CHILDREN IN THIS SITUATION. ALSO MINIMUM WAGE AS WELL, THOSE PEOPLE ON MINIMUM WAGES, THEY ARE ALSO IN THAT SITUATION AS WELL. UNLESS THEY ARE ON LIVING WAGES, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO` WE ARE NOT GOING TO BRING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COST OF GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE HAD ADVICE SAYING THAT IT WILL TAKE ABOUT $3 BILLION A YEAR UNDER THE PREVIOUS TARGETS TO REDUCE CHILD POVERTY. CAN WE AFFORD THAT? CAN WE AFFORD NOT TO DO IT? HOW DO YOU APPROACH THAT? WE CAN'T AFFORD NOT TO DIRECT. WE CAN'T AFFORD NOT TO DO IT. WE ARE CALLING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO SPEND THE MONEY. THEY HAVE CHANGED THOSE TARGETS. THEY HAVE MADE A MORE REALISTIC, AS THEY SAY. THERE IS A BUDGET COMING UP IN . MAY WHAT IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST THING THAT NICOLA WILLIS COULD DO TO REDUCE THESE NUMBERS? CHILD POVERTY ACTION GROUP HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 30 YEARS. WE HAVE DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH AND ADVOCACY AROUND CHILD POVERTY. WE HAVE A WHOLE SUITE OF POLICIES THAT THEY CAN DO ACROSS EDUCATION, HOUSING, EVERYTHING THEY CAN DO TO REACH THOSE TARGETS. WE DON'T REALLY EXPECT THAT THIS GOVERNMENT OR EVEN THE OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES WILL TAKE THEM ALL ON, BUT SOME OF THE KEY THINGS THAT THEY COULD DO IS AROUND THE FOOD IN SCHOOLS ` REVERSE THOSE CUTS. YOU SEE THAT AS YOUR TOP PRIORITY? WE THINK THAT IS REALLY ACHIEVABLE TO THE GOVERNMENT WITH 130 MILLION, COMPARED TO A TAX CUT TO CORPORATE THAT WOULD TAKE 600 MILLION OUT. LET'S NOT FORGET THE 3 BILLION TAX CUT THAT WE GAVE TO LANDLORDS. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THE... STATS WAS AROUND RENTING AND THE FACT THAT RENTERS ARE DOING IT THE MOST OFTEN IN THIS SITUATION. BRINGING DOWN INFLATION DOESN'T... DOESN'T IMPACT THOSE RENTERS. THE FOOD IN SCHOOLS AND CAPITAL GAINS TAX IF POSSIBLE. WE MIGHT NOT SEE THAT. YOU'VE GOT A FAIRLY BIG WISH LIST. REALLY INTERESTING TO YOU PUT FOOD IN SCHOOLS NEVER TOP. REALLY INTERESTING TO YOU PUT FOOD IN SCHOOLS NEAR THE TOP* INCREASING BENEFITS, AND THAT BENEFIT THAT I'D SPOKE ABOUT BETWEEN 100 AND $200 A WEEK, IF YOU COULD GIVE THAT INCREASING BENEFITS, YOU CAN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND SCRAPPING THIS LATEST SOCIAL SECURITY AMENDMENT BILL AROUND THE BENEFIT SANCTIONS, BECAUSE BENEFIT SANCTIONS DON'T WORK. WE WILL SEE HOW MUCH OF THAT THE MINISTER PICKS UP. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, K?RERO MAI. FLICK US AN EMAIL ` qanda@tvnz.co.nz. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE GOVERNMENT'S GOING FOR GROWTH, BUT HOW DO WE ACTUALLY GET THERE? MAKING THE TRANSITION FROM A TECH START-UP TO A THRIVING BUSINESS IS RARE IN NEW ZEALAND, AND GIVEN OUR HUGE ECONOMIC CHALLENGES, IT'S A FEAT WE'D LOVE TO ACHIEVE MORE OFTEN. SO WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS THAT BRING TOGETHER INNOVATORS AND INVESTORS? YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE HEARD OF ENTREPRENEUR ROWAN SIMPSON, BUT HE PLAYED PIVOTAL AND EARLY ROLES IN BOTH TRADE ME AND XERO ` WHICH STARTED FROM NOTHING AND BECAME HUGE BUSINESSES. HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED HOW TO BE WRONG ` A CRASH COURSE IN STARTUP SUCCESS. HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN NEW ZEALAND TECH THAT YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF. I STARTED BY ASKING HIM HOW START-UPS CAN HELP LIFT US OUT OF OUR ECONOMIC MALAISE. I MEAN, THE TECHNOLOGY WAVES CONTINUE TO BREAK OVER US, AND EVERY TIME THAT HAPPENS, THERE'S AMAZING OPPORTUNITIES. SO, LIKE, EVEN IN THESE ECONOMIC CYCLES, THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO CREATE GREAT COMPANIES. AND THE TWO THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ARE TEXTBOOK EXAMPLES OF THIS, SO, AS YOU AS YOU MENTIONED, TRADE ME WAS STARTED, AND FIRST, YOU KNOW, WE TRIED TO GROW THAT BUSINESS IN THE WAKE OF THE DOT-COM BUBBLE IMPLODING, REALLY, AND YOU WOULD HAVE PROBABLY SAID AT THE TIME THAT WAS THE WORST MOMENT TO TRY AND START A TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS OR AN INTERNET BUSINESS, AND YET ` TRADE ME. AND SAME WITH XERO ` WE FLOATED JUST JUST A FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE GFC IN 2007, AND YOU WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS POSSIBLY THE WORST TIME TO TRY AND CREATE SUCH AN AMBITIOUS GLOBAL COMPANY, AND YET ` XERO. SO I THINK THESE THESE CYCLES DO ALSO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES SO I THINK THESE CYCLES DO ALSO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES AS WELL AS CHALLENGES. WELL, LET'S FLIP IT AROUND. WHAT ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC ABOUT IN THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY NOW? I MEAN, I THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT'S CALLED THE ECOSYSTEM OF TECH START-UPS IN NEW ZEALAND, WE'RE IN A BETTER SHAPE NOW THAN WE'VE EVER BEEN. IF YOU JUST` IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE COMPANIES, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE NOW COMPANIES THAT ARE` THAT HAVE BEEN STARTED BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPUN OUT OF SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSES LIKE TRADE ME AND XERO, AND EVEN ROCKET LAB, AND THE NEXT GENERATION OF COMPANIES THAT FOLLOWED, AND THEY'RE REINVESTING` YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TAKING THE SKILLS THAT THEY LEARNT IN THOSE SUCCESSFUL COMPANIES, AND THEY'RE APPLYING THEM TO A NEW VENTURE IN JUST THE SAME WAY AS THOSE OF US WHO INVESTED IN XERO WERE TAKING THE CAPITAL THAT WE GOT FROM FAIRFAX AND THE SKILLS THAT WE HAD FROM TRADE ME. AND SO THAT'S WHAT GROWS AN ECOSYSTEM, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE OF US WHO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT, WE SHOULD BE AS OPTIMISTIC AS WE'VE EVER BEEN ABOUT THE FUTURE POTENTIAL OF THAT, BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE JUST CONTINUES TO GROW. MM. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE STRUCTURAL THINGS IN THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY THAT MAY BE HOLDING US BACK, OR THINGS WE COULD IMPROVE ON ` BECAUSE YOU DO WRITE ABOUT THEM IN THE BOOK. MM. I MEAN, IT'S LONG BEEN KNOWN THAT WE HAVE AN OBSESSION WITH REAL ESTATE, WITH HOUSING IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WE PILE A LOT OF MONEY INTO THAT, AND THE TAX INCENTIVES ARE REALLY QUITE HEAVILY SKEWED TOWARDS THAT, AND YOU WOULD THINK THAT THAT REDUCES THE KIND OF CAPITAL THAT COULD BE FLOWING INTO THE SORT OF START-UPS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH, RIGHT? SO, SOMEONE WHO HAS SEVERAL MILLIONS OF` SAY, TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, MIGHT HAVE A MASSIVE PROPERTY PORTFOLIO, AND THAT'S AN OPPORTUNITY COST IF YOU'RE SOMEONE LIKE YOURSELF WHO WANTS TO GET IN FOR THOSE KINDS OF COMPANIES. WHAT IS YOUR FEELING ABOUT HOW WE COULD PERHAPS TILT THAT? I MEAN, IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY COST ` I THINK, FOR SOME REASON, WE'VE DEVELOPED, OVER GENERATIONS, THIS IDEA THAT WE GET AHEAD BY SELLING LITTLE BITS OF THE COUNTRY TO EACH OTHER AT EVER-INFLATED PRICES, AND I JUST DON'T THINK THAT, AS A PATH, IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK FOR US. AND I MEAN, THERE IS` THERE IS A REAL FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INVESTING IN PROPERTY AND INVESTING IN THE SORTS OF COMPANIES THAT I INVEST IN, WHICH HAVE BEEN VERY LUCRATIVE INVESTMENTS, TO BE CLEAR. AND THAT'S THE UNCERTAINTY ` SO I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO PERHAPS ADDRESS IS THIS IDEA THAT PEOPLE HAVE THAT PROPERTY IS A SURE BET. I'M NOT SURE THAT IT WILL BE IN THE FUTURE IN THE SAME WAY AS IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, AND MAYBE THAT WILL SHIFT OUR THINKING A LITTLE BIT TO MAYBE THINK A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY ABOUT UNCERTAIN INVESTMENTS, LIKE START-UP INVESTMENTS ARE, AND HOW` AND HOW WE COULD, YOU KNOW, PREFER THOSE OVER UNPRODUCTIVE INVESTMENTS IN, AS I SAY, LITTLE BITS OF THE COUNTRY. YEAH, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT EMPLOYING PEOPLE IN THE WAY THAT THOSE COMPANIES THAT YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH ARE. IS THE SOLUTION A CAPITAL GAINS TAX? I MEAN` WHAT IS YOUR FEELING ON THAT? I MEAN, PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE INVESTORS SHOULDN'T REALLY BE TOO STRESSED ABOUT A CAPITAL GAINS TAX, I DON'T THINK. YOU KNOW, IT WOULD` IT WOULD JUST BE PRICED INTO THE SORTS OF TRANSACTIONS THAT OCCUR. SO IF THE INVESTORS WHO OWNED TRADE ME, AND I WAS ONE OF THEM, KNEW THAT WE WOULD BE TAXED ON THOSE GAINS, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN FACTORED IN TO THE PRICE THAT WE SOLD THE BUSINESS FOR. SO MY QUESTION MORE WAS DIRECTED ABOUT WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE A CAPITAL GAINS TAX ON PROPERTY TO TRY AND` WELL, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS THAT WHEN YOU HEAR POLITICIANS TALK ABOUT THIS IS THE VERY FIRST THING THAT THEY WILL EXCLUDE FROM A PROPOSED CAPITAL GAINS TAX IS PROPERTY ` THE FAMILY HOME. I'M YET TO HEAR A POLITICIAN EVER SUGGEST THAT WE EXCLUDE THE FAMILY BUSINESS, SO MAYBE THAT WILL BE ONE OF THE UNLOCKS. SO WHAT YOU'RE FEELING IS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE A CAPITAL GAINS TAX ACROSS THE BOARD, IS IT? I MEAN, THAT WOULDN'T BOTHER ME AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT ASSUME IT WOULD, AND I THINK IT WOULD PROBABLY BE BENEFICIAL OVERALL. BUT IF WE REALLY WANT TO SHIFT` WHY? ...IF WE REALLY WANT TO SHIFT BEHAVIOUR FROM INVESTING IN UNPRODUCTIVE TO PRODUCTIVE THINGS, SHOULD REALLY BE LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS THAT DISCOURAGE UNPRODUCTIVE INVESTMENTS, RATHER THAN DISCOURAGING ALL TYPES OF INVESTMENTS. AND WHAT WOULD` WHAT WOULD THEY BE? THIS IS WHERE I'M A LITTLE BIT OUT OF MY MY DEPTH. I'M NOT A BUREAUCRAT OR A POLITICIAN, BUT THE` I MEAN, ANYTHING THAT DISCOURAGES INVESTMENT IN LAND AND PROPERTY AND` WOULD SHIFT THE BALANCE, I THINK. MM. WE WORK SOME OF THE LONGEST HOURS IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD ` WE WORK VERY HARD AS NEW ZEALANDERS, BUT OFTEN FOR LOWER RATES OF PAY THAN MANY OF THOSE COUNTRIES THAT WE COMPARE OURSELVES WITH. IT'S THIS PRODUCTIVITY MALAISE THAT WE'VE GOT ` HAVE YOU GOT THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW WE COULD LIFT OURSELVES OUT OF THAT? YEAH, I MEAN, SOME OF THIS THINKING IS VERY OLD, SO, I MEAN, I TRACE THAT IN THE BOOK BACK TO A TALK THAT PAUL CALLAGHAN GAVE IN 2011. I WAS ACTUALLY LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IN THE ROOM WHEN HE GAVE THAT LECTURE IN WELLINGTON BACK THEN. AND, YOU KNOW, PAUL CALLAGHAN, FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH HIM, WAS A PHYSICIST, ACTUALLY, BUT ALSO THE FOUNDER OF A TECH BUSINESS, MAGRITEK, AND SOMEONE WHO THOUGHT REALLY WELL AND DEEPLY, I THINK, ABOUT THESE SORTS OF QUESTIONS THAT YOU'RE ASKING. AND SO, YEAH, LIKE, EVEN TODAY, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, WE STILL QUOTE A LOT OF HIS THINKING IN TERMS OF WHAT SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS TO THESE PROBLEMS MIGHT BE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE` INSPIRED BY THAT TALK AND HIS THINKING, WE CREATED A GOVERNMENT AGENCY, CALLAGHAN INNOVATION, WHICH WAS NAMED AFTER HIM, WHICH SORT OF DID THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE PROPOSED. YOU KNOW, ONE OF HIS FAMOUS QUOTES WAS, THE BUSINESSES THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL IN THE FUTURE ARE GOING TO SURPRISE US ` THEY'LL BE IN OBSCURE NICHES THAT YOU COULD NEVER PREDICT. WHICH IS ACTUALLY EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENED, YOU KNOW ` YOU COULD` NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT SMALL-BUSINESS ACCOUNTING SOFTWARE WOULD BE A NICHE THAT NEW ZEALAND WOULD BE GREAT AT, FOR EXAMPLE. OR FIRING ROCKETS UP. (CHUCKLES) ANY OF THOSE THINGS, RIGHT? SO HE WAS 100% CORRECT ABOUT THAT. YET, UNFORTUNATELY, CALLAGHAN INNOVATION HAS MOSTLY SPENT THE LAST 10 YEARS SINCE TRYING TO PICK WINNERS, WHICH IS.... AND YOU OPPOSE THAT IN THE BOOK, DON'T YOU? THIS IDEA THAT SOMEHOW SOME BUREAUCRATS CAN GO, 'YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE THIS SECTOR.' IS IT MORE ABOUT FOSTERING THE CONDITIONS THAT CAN LEAD TO THAT INNOVATION? SO, I MEAN, MY CRITICISM OF THAT IS NOT IDEOLOGICAL ` LIKE, I LIKE TO ASK, 'IS IT WORKING, AND HOW DO WE KNOW?' AND I THINK WE NOW HAVE 10 YEARS OF EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THAT APPROACH HASN'T REALLY WORKED. AND THE NUMBERS AROUND THAT ARE EYE-WATERING, BY THE WAY ` I CRUNCHED SOME NUMBERS AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WHEN CALLAGHAN INNOVATION WAS DISESTABLISHED BY THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT. OVER THOSE 11 YEARS, SINCE 2013, WHEN CALLAGHAN INNOVATION WAS ESTABLISHED, THE GOVERNMENT'S INVESTED $2.8B IN THAT` IN THAT, YOU KNOW, SEARCHING FOR INNOVATION, IF YOU LIKE. $1.7B OF THAT WAS GRANTS TO COMPANIES, BUT $1 BILLION OF THAT WAS THE COST OF JUST RUNNING CALLAGHAN ITSELF. AND THAT'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY ` AND THE RATIO, BY THE WAY, OF $1B FOR $1.7B, DISTRIBUTED, EFFECTIVELY, IT'S PRETTY DEPRESSING IF YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT. AND YET, LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU PROBABLY AREN'T GOING TO STRUGGLE TO FIND INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES THAT HAVE RECEIVED THAT MONEY WHO'LL BE CRITICAL OF THAT APPROACH ` OF COURSE, IF YOU GIVE SOMEONE FREE MONEY, THEY'RE GOING TO APPRECIATE IT. BUT IF WE LOOK AT THOSE, SORT OF, MACRO MEASURES THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ` THE PRODUCTIVITY NUMBERS, THE PER CAPITA GDP, OR EVEN OUR INVESTMENT IN R&D, WHICH IS MORE OF AN INPUT, BUT A GOOD INDICATOR ` YOU KNOW, THOSE HAVE ALL GONE BACKWARDS IN 10 YEARS. AND SO, IT'S NOT` IT DOESN'T REFLECT WELL ON THE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE AND HOW WELL THEY'VE WORKED. SO IS THERE MORE WE CAN DO TO ENCOURAGE THE NEXT TRADE ME, XERO, ROCKET LAB, OR ARE WE REALLY JUST SETTING THE CONDITIONS AND HOPING THE INNOVATORS AND INVESTORS WILL SORT OF MATCH UP? I MEAN, I LIKE TO THINK ABOUT HOW AN ECOSYSTEM ACTUALLY GROWS, AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT. ITT'S VERY EASY TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THIS SORT OF TOP-DOWN WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THE ECOSYSTEM ` YOU KNOW, WHAT INNOVATION PROGRAMMES CAN WE PUT IN PLACE? WHAT GRANTS AND SUBSIDY SCHEMES, OR R&D TAX CREDITS, WHAT ACCELERATOR PROGRAMMES VENTURE FUNDS, ALL OF THESE THINGS? FOR ME, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE DESCRIBING OUR NATIONAL PARKS BY DRAWING THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION ORG CHART, IF YOU LIKE ` LIKE, THE ECOSYSTEM IS THE COMPANIES AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING ON THEM, AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INVESTING IN THEM. AND AS I SAID BEFORE, I THINK IT'S, TODAY, IN AS GREAT A SHAPE AS IT PROBABLY HAS EVER BEEN. SO THE ECOSYSTEM IS ACTUALLY GROWING FROM THE BOTTOM UP REALLY STRONGLY, AND I THINK WE JUST NEED TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE DON'T, FOR A START, SLOW THAT DOWN IN ANY WAY, BUT ALSO THAT ALL THE THINGS THAT WE DO REALLY ARE FOCUSED ON THOSE PEOPLE AND WHAT WE CAN DO TO UNLOCK CONSTRAINTS THAT THEY HAVE. YEAH, IT REALLY STRUCK ME, READING YOUR BOOK, THAT YOU'RE BIG ON THE SKILL OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORK HERE. YOU'RE NOT SO KEEN ON ATTRACTING WEALTHY FOREIGNERS WITH, SORT OF, VISA, UM... YOU KNOW, ATTRACTIONS, AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. YOU'RE BIG ON TRAINING AND YOU'RE BIG ON SKILLS. YEAH. AGAIN, WE'VE BEEN DOING THOSE VISA PROGRAMMES FOR A LONG TIME, AND SO THE QUESTION WE SHOULD ASK ` SAME TWO QUESTIONS ` IT'S LIKE, HAS IT WORKED, AND HOW DO WE KNOW? YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY, I'M NOT SURE THAT WE'VE REALLY TRACKED WHAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN VISAS ON THE PROMISE THAT THEY WOULD INVEST HAVE ACTUALLY INVESTED AND HOW ACTIVE THEY'VE BEEN. WE CALL IT THE ACTIVE INVESTOR VISA ` WE MOSTLY FOCUS ON THE INVESTMENT PART RATHER THAN THE ACTIVE PART. BUT THE THING THAT I'VE LEARNED WORKING ON THESE COMPANIES AND HELPING THEM GROW, IS THAT ACTUALLY, THE MONEY YOU GIVE THEM AS AN INVESTOR IS USEFUL, OF COURSE, BUT THE TIME YOU GIVE THEM, AND THE SKILLS AND THE NETWORK AND THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU CAN BRING TO THOSE NEW COMPANIES IS MUCH, MUCH MORE VALUABLE. YEAH. YOU ALSO WORRY, DON'T YOU, THAT WE'RE TARGETING PEOPLE AT THE WRONG STAGE OF THEIR LIVES ` THAT IT BECOMES SORT OF A RETIREMENT HOME? YEAH. I MEAN, IT'S A LITTLE LIKE` I THINK WE SHOULD IMAGINE OURSELVES AS A STRUGGLING SECOND-DIVISION FRENCH RUGBY TEAM, IF YOU LIKE, WHO IMAGINES THAT ALL WE NEED TO DO TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP IS GET A RECENTLY RETIRED ALL BLACK TO COME ACROSS AND JOIN OUR TEAM. YOU KNOW, THAT'S` THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING WITH THOSE? A LITTLE BIT. LIKE, THESE PEOPLE` THEY'RE GREAT PEOPLE, TO BE CLEAR. SOME OF THEM ARE MY FRIENDS, AND SOME OF THEM HAVE INVESTED AND CONTRIBUTED A LOT TO COMPANIES. SO IT'S` YOU KNOW, WE'RE STARTING TO TALK IN ANECDOTE A LITTLE, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE REALLY NEED ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HUNGRY, WHO ARE AT THE EARLY STAGES OF THEIR CAREERS AND WANT TO LIVE HERE AND WORK HERE AND BUILD THEIR SUCCESSES HERE. I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY PLAYED THEIR BEST GAMES POSSIBLY AREN'T THE BEST PLAYERS FOR OUR TEAM. I WAS ALSO INTERESTED IN YOUR SECTIONS ON DIVERSITY, BECAUSE DEI, AS THE AMERICANS CALL IT` MM. ...IS REALLY UNDER FIRE AT THE MOMENT, ISN'T IT, FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND FROM SOME OF THE BIG TECH BROS THAT ARE SORT OF SURROUNDING HIM? YEAH. BUT YOU TALK ABOUT DEI NOT AS SOMETHING SORT OF WOKE THAT WE NEED TO BE FORCED TO DO, BUT YOU TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY ` THAT COMPANIES WITH DIVERSE STAFF AND DIVERSE BOARDS ACTUALLY PERFORM BETTER. SO IT'S A PERFORMANCE METRIC, NOT` RIGHT. IT'S A GREAT REASON TO DO IT, BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY MAKES YOU BETTER. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT? YEAH. I MEAN, I HAVE EVIDENCE OF THAT, LIKE, THE TEAMS THAT I'VE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE PART OF ARE GOOD EXAMPLES OF THIS. LIKE, I` I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, THE TEAM AT TRADE ME WAS DIVERSE ON EVERY DIMENSION EXCEPT FOR AGE ` WE WERE ALL YOUNG, BUT OTHERWISE A DIVERSE TEAM, AND THAT MADE US STRONG, YOU KNOW. AND` BECAUSE A LOT OF TECHS ARE WHITE, BEARDED MEN, AREN'T THEY? IT'S A COMMON PROBLEM, YEAH. AND, I MEAN, THERE'S A REALLY EASY EXPLANATION FOR WHY THAT HAPPENS, TOO, BECAUSE IN THE BEGINNING, CONVINCING ANYBODY TO WORK WITH YOU ON A VERY RISKY VENTURE IS HARD WORK. SO YOU GET YOUR MATES. OFTEN, THAT'S TRUE. IT'S OFTEN PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW, OR PEOPLE THAT CAN BE REFERRED TO YOU DIRECTLY, AND THEY'RE OFTEN PEOPLE LIKE YOU. AND, TO BE CLEAR, IN THE BEGINNING, THAT'S ACTUALLY AN ADVANTAGE BECAUSE IT HELPS YOU GO FAST. IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE HAVING DEBATES CONSTANTLY ABOUT THINGS YOU MIGHT DISAGREE ON, THAT'S AN ADVANTAGE. BUT WHERE DOES IT GIVE YOU A BLIND SIDE LATER? 100%. SO YOU NEED TO BE CONSCIOUS OF THAT, AND THINK ABOUT THAT AS THE TEAM STARTS TO EXPAND. AND I DESCRIBE THAT IN THE BOOK AS BREAK POINTS ` LIKE, THERE ARE REPEATED BREAK POINTS THAT I'VE SEEN WHERE CULTURE BREAKS, UNLESS YOU'RE REALLY CONSCIOUS OF THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. BUT, YEAH, I'LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER RUGBY METAPHOR, SINCE WE'VE BEEN ON THE RUGBY ROUTE THIS MORNING, THE, UM... YOU KNOW, WE DON'T THINK OF A RUGBY TEAM AS SELECTED ON A QUOTA BASIS, AND YET EVERY RUGBY TEAM HAS TWO PROPS, ONE HOOKER, ONE HALFBACK, ONE FIRST-FIVE. AND WHY? IF YOU SELECTED A WHOLE TEAM OF LOCKS` YOU'D BE PRETTY SLOW ON THE WING. THEY'D BE GREAT IN THE LINEOUTS, BUT THAT'D BE PRETTY CRAP OTHERWISE. YEAH. ROWAN SIMPSON, THE AUTHOR OF 'HOW TO BE WRONG ` A CRASH COURSE IN START-UP SUCCESS'. WHAT WE PLAYED WAS AN EDITED VERSION OF THE INTERVIEW. YOU CAN WATCH THE FULL CONVERSATION ON Q+A'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL. THERE'S SOME GREAT TIPS IN THERE ABOUT EARLY-STAGE START-UP SURVIVAL AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE MEET AN MP CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF SO-CALLED VIRGINITY TESTING. CAN IT BE BANNED? WELCOME BACK. INVASIVE, A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION, AND COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED BY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE ` THAT'S HOW ONE MP DESCRIBES THE PRACTICE OF SO-CALLED VIRGINITY TESTING. FOR THIS WEEK'S MEMBER'S BILL FEATURE, WE MEET LABOUR MP PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN, WHO WANTS TO SEE THE PRACTICE BANNED. (DETERMINED MUSIC) MY NAME IS PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN ` I'M A LABOUR MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AND MY MEMBER'S BILL IS THE CRIMES (VIRGINITY TESTING PRACTICES) AMENDMENT BILL. (DETERMINED MUSIC CONTINUES) THIS BILL WILL BAN VIRGINITY TESTING, WHICH IS AN INVASIVE PHYSICAL EXAMINATION OF THE FEMALE GENITALIA TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMEONE ` A GIRL OR A WOMAN ` IS A VIRGIN. IT WILL ALSO BAN HYMENOPLASTY, WHICH IS A RELATED PRACTICE TO REPAIR THE HYMEN IF SOMEONE FAILS THAT TEST. NOW, THERE'S NO MEDICAL OR SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR VIRGINITY TESTING. I HAVE HEARD STORIES` CASES OF YOUNG WOMEN HERE IN NEW ZEALAND WHO HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRGINITY TESTING AND HYMENOPLASTY ` SOMETIMES IT HAPPENS HERE; SOMETIMES OVERSEAS AS WELL. I HAVE WORKED IN THIS AREA` PRIOR TO ENTERING PARLIAMENT, I DID A LOT OF WORK ON FORCED MARRIAGE. I KNOW THAT SOME OF THESE FORMS OF VIOLENCE CAN BE VERY HIDDEN, SO IT IS DIFFICULT TO DEVELOP A SCALE ARGUMENT IN TERMS OF HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE BEING SUBJECTED TO THIS, BUT I KNOW OF CASES THAT HAVE HAPPENED, AND FOR ME, THAT'S ENOUGH FOR US TO ACT. THERE IS SOMETIMES A CONCERN BY HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTITIONERS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT CRIMINALISING A PRACTICE THAT IS ALREADY QUITE HIDDEN COULD DRIVE IT FURTHER UNDERGROUND ` THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I WOULD BE KEEN TO TEST ONCE THE BILL IS DRAWN THROUGH THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. OFTEN, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES SAY TO ME, 'BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S CULTURAL ` 'WHY WOULD WE WANT TO STEP IN AND POLICE SOMEONE ELSE'S CULTURE?' IT IS NOT A CULTURAL PRACTICE. IT IS ONE THAT IS ROOTED IN PATRIARCHY; IT IS ONLY GIRLS AND WOMEN WHO NEED TO PROVE SOMEHOW THAT THEY ARE VIRGINS, NOT MEN. THERE IS NO MEDICAL OR SCIENTIFIC BASIS TO THIS. IT IS A FORM OF VIOLENCE IN ITSELF. CONSENT IS OFTEN VERY MURKY, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN` AND THIS IS INTERNATIONAL EVIDENCE ` WOMEN WHO COME FORWARD IN OTHER COUNTRIES DO SAY THAT THE SOCIOCULTURAL NORMS AND EXPECTATIONS THAT THEY'VE BEEN BROUGHT UP IN SOMETIMES LEAD WOMEN TO AGREE TO IT ` IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE CONSENTING TO A PRACTICE THAT IS, IN ITS ESSENCE, A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION. PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN. AND JUST A REMINDER ` AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ 1, YOU CAN ALSO SEE US ON TVNZ+. YOU'LL FIND ALL OF Q+A'S WORK THERE, PLUS THE BEST OF THE TVNZ NEWSROOM. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. BEFORE WE GO TODAY, THE VATICAN HAS ANNOUNCED POPE FRANCIS IS IN A CRITICAL CONDITION AFTER A RESPIRATORY CRISIS. THE PONTIFF WAS ADMITTED TO HOSPITAL FOR BRONCHITIS LATE LAST WEEK. JUST LOOKING AT THE LATEST FROM THE BBC, THEY SAY HE IS MORE UNWELL THAN YESTERDAY. POPE FRANCIS WAS ELECTED TO THE POSITION IN 2013 AND IS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF MORE THAN 1 BILLION CATHOLICS. WE'LL HAVE MORE ON THIS STORY ON 1 NEWS AT 6, AND DEVELOPMENTS AS THEY HAPPEN ON 1newsco.nz. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU. THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. HEI TERA WIKI. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9am. CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025