CAPTIONS BY JASON CONRAN AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 NAU MAI, HAERE MAI, PIKI MAI, KAKE MAI. KIA ORA E TE IWI, WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GUYON ESPINER. YOU'LL NORMALLY CATCH ME ON RADIO NZ. TODAY, I'M IN FOR JACK TAME. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` SHE WAS PRIME MINISTER FOR NINE YEARS, AND IS STILL CLOSELY INVOLVED WITH INTERNATIONAL LEADERS AND MAJOR SECURITY EVENTS. HOW DOES HELEN CLARK SEE THE WORLD ORDER CHANGING UNDER TRUMP 2.0? SO YOU MOVE TO A WORLD WHERE, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT PUTIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT XI CALL THE SHOTS. IT'S NOT THE SORT OF WORLD MOST OF US WOULD WANT TO LIVE IN. THEN ` WHO WANTS TO MAKE A CITIZEN'S ARREST? WE SPEAK TO A KEY BACKER OF THE GOVERNMENT'S NEW PLAN TO CRACK DOWN ON RETAIL CRIME. AND WE VISIT A TOWN THAT IS ONCE AGAIN FACING WATER WOES THAT HAVEN'T BEEN FIXED IN DECADES. AND THEN SOMEONE'LL WALK IN ` YOU KNOW THEY'VE JUST HAD A SHOWER. BECAUSE YOU COULD SMELL IT ON THEM? OH YEAH, YOU DO. IT MAKES YOU ITCHY. MAKES YOU SCRATCH. 'YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US.' THAT WAS THE BLUNT MESSAGE DELIVERED TO HELEN CLARK AND OTHER LEADERS AS GEORGE W BUSH PREPARED TO FLEX AMERICA'S MILITARY MIGHT AFTER 9-11, FIRST IN AFGHANISTAN AND THEN IN IRAQ. CLARK HAD TO SCRAMBLE TO SECURE NEW ZEALAND'S PLACE IN THE NEW WORLD ORDER. WITH DONALD TRUMP NOW IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND SEEMING TO TURN HIS BACK ON EUROPE WITH HIS STRATEGY TO STOP THE RUSSIA-UKRAINE WAR, THERE ARE INCREASING FEARS ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF GREAT POWER RIVALRY. HELEN CLARK HAS RECENTLY RETURNED FROM THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, A GLOBAL GATHERING OF WORLD LEADERS WHO ARE INCREASINGLY ON EDGE. I SAT DOWN WITH HELEN CLARK ON FRIDAY, AND BEGAN BY ASKING HER ABOUT HOW AMERICA'S TRADITIONAL ALLIES ARE REACTING TO THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. EUROPE WAS SHELL-SHOCKED BY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE DAYS LEADING UP TO MUNICH, AS WELL AS AT MUNICH. IN THE DAYS LEADING UP, THE NEW DEFENSE SECRETARY, MR HEGSETH, WENT TO BRUSSELS, AND THERE PRETTY MUCH SAID DON'T RELY ON AMERICA FOR UKRAINE OR FOR ANYTHING ELSE MUCH. WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS THE POINT OF NATO IF IT'S NOT ABOUT THE U.S. UNDERWRITING EUROPEAN SECURITY, AS IT HAS IN THE PAST? EUROPE'S HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THIS ` THE AMERICANS WERE VITAL ON THE ALLIED SIDE, COMING IN LATE IN WORLD WAR 1. THEY BROKE A STALEMATE IN THAT WAR. THEY WERE VITAL IN TURNING THE TIDE AGAINST FASCISM IN ITALY AND IN GERMANY. SO EUROPE HAS HAD THE BEST PART OF MORE THAN A CENTURY SEEING AMERICA COMING IN AS CRITICAL TO ITS SECURITY. AND THAT SECURITY BLANKET HAS BEEN WITHDRAWN. HENCE THE HUGE CONCERN IN EUROPE ABOUT THE STATEMENTS. THEN AT THE MUNICH CONFERENCE, PEOPLE EXPECTED A SECURITY TYPE SPEECH FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT, JD VANCE, AND INSTEAD GOT A LECTURE ABOUT LETTING THE FAR RIGHT BE FULLY INCLUDED IN GOVERNMENTS AND THE REST OF IT, SO VERY TRAUMATISED EUROPE WHEN I WAS THERE. DO YOU THINK THAT NATO IS UNDER THREAT AS AN ALLIANCE? YES, I DO, BECAUSE IT'S NO LONGER CLEAR WHAT THE U.S. WOULD DO AS PART OF ITS NATO RESPONSIBILITIES. AND THAT'S WHY PRESIDENT MACRON, THE DAY AFTER THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, SUMMONED A GROUP OF EUROPEAN LEADERS ` NOT ALL ` TO PARIS, TO TALK ABOUT THE WAY FORWARD, AND THEN HAD A FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH A WIDER GROUP LATER IN THE WEEK. IT VERY MUCH LOOKS LIKE THERE WILL BE THE DEVELOPMENT OF SOME PARALLEL BODY TO NATO WHICH DOESN'T HAVE THE U.S. IN IT, WHERE EUROPE WILL STEP UP ON ITS OWN DEFENCE. NOW, AS I'VE SAID, EUROPE PROVED UNABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM AGGRESSION ON TWO OCCASIONS IN THE 20th CENTURY. BUT WE'RE IN THE 21st CENTURY. WARFARE'S CHANGED. MODERN TECHNOLOGY. THEY PROBABLY COULD DO IT, BUT IT IS COSTLY. SO WE'RE SEEING THE SUN SET ON NATO, IN YOUR VIEW? WE ARE SEEING THE SUN SET ON AN ALLIANCE WHERE IT WAS MORE OR LESS GUARANTEED THAT THE U.S. WOULD STEP IN IF A NATO MEMBER WAS UNDER THREAT. I DON'T THINK THAT CAN ANY LONGER BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED. AND HOW BIG A DEAL IS THAT, IN YOUR VIEW? IT'S A HUGE DEAL. IT'S REWRITING, REALLY, THE POST-WAR SETTLEMENT WHERE THE U.S. IS THE VICTORS, EUROPE WAS ON ITS KNEES, THE U.S. CAME TO THE PARTY WITH NATO, THE COLD WAR SET IN. THE U.S. WAS ALWAYS THERE AS THAT SECURITY BLANKET. AND THAT IS NOW VERY MUCH IN QUESTION. ALEX YOUNGER, WHO USED TO BE THE BOSS OF MI6, SAID THIS WEEK, 'WE ARE IN A NEW ERA WHERE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS 'ARE NOT GOING TO BE DETERMINED BY RULES AND MULTILATERAL INSTITUTIONS 'BUT BY STRONG MEAN AND DEALS.' WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT SENTIMENT? IS THAT THE PATH WE'RE GOING DOWN? IT'S TERRIFYING, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE HERE WE ARE, A SMALL COUNTRY, RELYING ON INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE SET OF INSTITUTIONS WHICH WERE SET UP TO KEEP THAT IN PLACE AND KEEP INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IN PLACE. SO YOU MOVE TO A WORLD WHERE PRESIDENT PUTIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT XI CALL THE SHOTS. IT'S NOT THE SORT OF WORLD MOST OF US WOULD WANT TO LIVE IN. WE WANT TO SEE SOMETHING MORE INCLUSIVE, SOMETHING MORE BASED ON INTERNATIONAL LAW, UPHOLDING HUMAN RIGHTS, BEING GOOD FOR TRADE, BEING GOOD FOR DEVELOPMENT, AND ALL THAT IS BEING CAST ASIDE IN THIS NEW STRONGMAN SCENARIO. EUROPE IS REACTING BY URGENTLY INCREASING DEFENCE SPENDING, OR PROMISING TO ` I SEE KEIR STARMER TALKING ABOUT RAISING SPENDING TO 3% OF GDP BY THE EARLY 2030s. ARE WE IN A NEW GLOBAL ARMS RACE NOW? WELL, ON THE CURRENT SETTINGS, YES. AND THAT'S WHEN YOU HAVE TO PINCH YOURSELF AND SAY, 'HANG ON A MINUTE. AREN'T THERE OTHER WAYS?' AND YOU START TO THINK BACK TO THE CHOREOGRAPHY AROUND THE COLD WAR, WHERE YOU HAD TWO NUCLEAR-ARMED CAMPS, BUT THEY NEVER WENT TO WAR, BECAUSE THERE WERE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT WERE OBSERVED. NOW, I THINK WE NEED TO SEE HOW THE UKRAINE CONFLICT PLAYS OUT. ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, I THINK IT'S GOING TO END. BUT THEN THE SERIOUS CONVERSATION THAT EUROPE HAS TO HAVE WITH RUSSIA IS WHAT ARE THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT GOING FORWARD? BECAUSE OTHERWISE EVERYONE ARMS THEMSELVES TO THE TEETH AT HUGE COST TO THE SERVICES AND SUPPORTS THEY CAN PROVIDE THEIR DOMESTIC POPULATIONS, LET ALONE THE BLOODBATH NOW IN INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT SPENDING. AND FRANKLY, IF THE BRITISH WERE TO TAKE THEIR DEFENCE SPENDING TO 3%, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT BY RAIDING JUST THE DEVELOPMENT BUDGET. YOU'RE GOING TO BE RAIDING THE NHS, YOU'RE GOING TO BE RAIDING EDUCATION, ALL SORTS OF THINGS. SO AT SOME POINT, THE REALITY HAS TO SINK IN THAT A NEW ARMS RACE ISN'T GOING TO TAKE US ANYWHERE EXCEPT TOWARDS MISERY. AND WE NEED TO FIND SOME NEW EUROPEAN SECURITY ARCHITECTURE WITH SOME RULES AROUND IT. YOU TOUCHED ON WHERE THE BRITISH DEFENCE SPENDING IS GOING TO COME FROM, AND IN FACT, YOU'RE RIGHT ` THEY'RE GOING TO CUT OVERSEAS AID TO FUND IT. AND WE'VE SEEN AMERICA GUTTING U.S. AID. DO YOU WORRY THAT A WORLD WHERE POVERTY ISN'T ADDRESSED IS A MORE DANGEROUS WORLD, AND THAT THIS COULD ACTUALLY BE MORE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE? A MORE DANGEROUS WORLD, A SICKER WORLD BECAUSE WE WON'T BE ON TOP OF THE DISEASE OUTBREAKS. AND IT'S NOT JUST THE U.S. AND THE UK THAT ARE CUTTING; GERMANY'S ANNOUNCING CUTS; THE JAPANESE; THE DUTCH; THE BELGIANS; THE FRENCH; THE ITALIANS HAVEN'T GIVEN MUCH ANYWAY. ALL THE HEAVY HITTERS ARE CUTTING. AND YOU WILL KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT. YOU RAN THE UNDP. YEAH. THIS IS CORE BUSINESS. THIS IS CORE BUSINESS. SO FIRSTLY, THE BIGGEST CALL ON INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AID AT THE MOMENT IS THE HUMANITARIAN SPEND ` PEOPLE WHO ARE LITERALLY STARVING, THEY'RE IN CONFLICT ZONES, THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE BASICS OF LIFE. WITHOUT THAT HUMANITARIAN DOLLAR, PEOPLE DIE. CHILDREN ARE UNVACCINATED, ETC. THERE'S ALSO A LOT OF CONCERN IF YOU TAKE THE HEALTH ASPECTS OF U.S. POLICY NOW, COMBINED WITH THE AID CUTS, THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE SURVEILLANCE OVER EMERGING DISEASE THREATS, AND THAT WE'RE AT MORE RISK OF ANOTHER PANDEMIC THAN WE WOULD OTHERWISE BE. SO THESE CUTS HAVE VERY GRAVE IMPLICATIONS. COUNTRIES SEEM TO THINK THAT THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH OPTIONS OTHER THAN RUSHING INTO THIS INCREASE IN DEFENCE SPENDING. I SEE OUR OWN PRIME MINISTER IN NEW ZEALAND SUGGESTING THAT WE COULD AIM FOR 2% OF GDP, WHICH WOULD BE A BIG INCREASE FOR US ` SOMETHING AROUND $10 BILLION. IS THAT A GOOD IDEA? WELL, I DON'T THINK SO. AND FRANKLY, NOTWITHSTANDING THE PRESENCE OF THREE CHINESE VESSELS IN THE TASMAN SEA, WE'RE NOT UNDER A THREAT OF INVASION. THREE SHIPS ISN'T EXACTLY THE SPANISH ARMADA IN THE ENGLISH CHANNEL. IT'S A TIT-FOR-TAT. NEW ZEALAND CHEERFULLY SAILS THROUGH THE TAIWAN STRAIT WITH A TANKER, BEHIND AN AUSTRALIAN VESSEL. NOW THE CHINESE COME DOWN AND SAIL THROUGH OUR BACKYARD IN THE TASMAN SEA, AND NOW THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS HE WANTS TO SEND A FRIGATE UP TO THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. I MEAN, WHY ARE WE BUYING INTO THIS FIGHT? I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS A LOT MORE ON THE SECURITY AND STABILITY AND ECONOMIC VIABILITY OF OUR SOUTH PACIFIC NEIGHBOURS, WHO ARE CLEARLY LURED BY THE PROSPECT OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH CHINA AT THIS TIME. WE'RE LETTING SOME OF THE BASICS GO IF WE START TO FOCUS ON BUILDING UP OUR OWN MILITARY CAPACITY, WHICH WILL ALWAYS BE MINUSCULE AND NOT FRIGHTEN OFF ANYONE. THERE WILL BE CALLS ON IT. THERE WERE WHEN YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER. THERE'S ALREADY BEEN TALK ABOUT SENDING PEACEKEEPERS TO UKRAINE. I MEAN, SURELY NEW ZEALAND DOES NEED TO INVEST IN DEFENCE. BUT YOU JUST DON'T THINK TO THAT LEVEL. I THINK IT'S THE HARDWARE THAT'S REALLY COSTLY. BUT NEW ZEALAND SAS, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A ROLE FOR, AT HOME AND ABROAD. NEW ZEALAND ENGINEERS ARE ALWAYS GREATLY FAVOURED. NEW ZEALAND PEACEKEEPERS GENERALLY. WE'VE DONE A GREAT JOB IN THE MULTINATIONAL FORCE IN THE SINAI FOR DECADES NOW, WITH THE PEACE BETWEEN EGYPT AND ISRAEL. WE'VE HAD A CREDIBLE PRESENCE IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA. WE'VE DONE A LOT OF GREAT THINGS, AND WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO DO THOSE THINGS. THIS IS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY THE IRISH ARMY FOCUSES ` ON PEACEKEEPING CONTRIBUTIONS OF THOSE KINDS. YOU RESTRUCTURED THE DEFENCE FORCE IN THE EARLY 2000s, AND YOU UTTERED THE PHRASE THAT WE LIVED IN A 'BENIGN STRATEGIC ENVIRONMENT'. I SEE THAT'S COME BACK FROM YOUR CRITICS TO IF NOT TO HAUNT YOU, THAT AT LEAST PEOPLE WERE PUTTING THAT BACK ON YOU NOW. DO YOU REGRET, SAY, DISESTABLISHING THE STRIKE WING, FOR EXAMPLE? WOULD THAT BE ANY GOOD TO US IN THIS WORLD? YOU KNOW, IN 35 YEARS, THOSE SKYHAWKS HAD FIRED ONE SHOT OVER THE BOW OF A FISHING BOAT. SO YOU'VE GOT TO SAY, FOR RETURN ON INVESTMENT, WE WEREN'T GETTING MUCH. SO NOT A MOMENT'S REGRET ABOUT IT. NOW, IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ARGUE FOR STRIKE WINGS OF THE AIR FORCE AND MORE AGGRESSIVE NAVAL CAPACITY, LET'S BE CLEAR ` THIS WOULD NOT BE ABOUT THE DEFENCE OF NEW ZEALAND. THIS WOULD BE ABOUT NEW ZEALAND PLUGGING IN TO BIGGER ALLIED FORCES. AND NEW ZEALAND HAD, BY AND LARGE, GOT ITSELF OFF THAT BANDWAGON. WE HAD THE DEFENCE RELATIONSHIP WITH AUSTRALIA, WHICH WAS ACTIVE, AND A LOT OF INTEROPERABILITY AND EXERCISING. BUT WE WERE OFF THE BANDWAGON OF U.S. ADVENTURES. AND I WOULD BE A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR NOT GETTING BACK ON THAT BANDWAGON. WE ARE OBVIOUSLY IN THE FIVE EYES INTELLIGENCE-SHARING ARRANGEMENT. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL COME INTO QUESTION OR THREAT OR CHANGE UNDER THIS TRUMP ADMINISTRATION? WELL, IT MIGHT. THERE'S BEEN SOME TALK IN THE MEDIA OF TRUMP WANTING TO EVICT CANADA FROM IT. PLEASE, COULD WE FOLLOW? I MEAN, REALLY. THE PROBLEM WITH FIVE EYES NOW IS THAT IT HAS BECOME A BASIS FOR POLICY POSITIONING ON ALL SORTS OF THINGS. YOU WILL RECALL THAT IN MY TIME AS PRIME MINISTER, AND ALL THE TIME LEADING UP TO THAT, IT WAS NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IT EVEN EXISTED. IT WAS AN INTELLIGENCE-SHARING POOL. IT WAS NEVER CONFIRMED OR DENIED THAT IT WAS EVEN THERE. AND TO SEE IT NOW AS THE BASIS FOR JOINT STATEMENTS, FINANCE MINISTERS' MEETINGS, THIS HAS GOT A BIT OUT OF CONTROL. YOU WERE A PRIME MINISTER WHO TOOK THE MINISTERIAL PORTFOLIO OF BEING IN CHARGE OF THE SIS, SO YOU WILL KNOW THIS INTIMATELY, BUT ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULD NOT BE IN FIVE EYES ANY MORE? I THINK IT WAS USEFUL FOR NEW ZEALAND, BUT... WAS? IT WAS USEFUL. BUT I'M GOING TO QUALIFY THAT BY SAYING THAT INTELLIGENCE GENERALLY COMES WITH INTERPRETATION. AND YOU WILL RECALL THE INTERPRETATIONS WHICH LED TO THE U.S. AND UK, WITH AUSTRALIAN SUPPORT, INVADING IRAQ. WE QUESTIONED THAT INTELLIGENCE AND NEVER ACTED ON IT. SO INTELLIGENCE HAS TO BE TREATED WITH SCEPTICISM, BECAUSE YOU CAN GET TWO AND TWO MAKES 17, AS IN THE CASE THAT LED UP TO IRAQ BEING INVADED. I'M JUST TRYING TO GET IT CLEAR IN MY MIND WHERE YOU SIT ON THIS. ARE YOU SAYING THAT FIVE EYES IS NOT NOW VITAL TO NEW ZEALAND'S INTERESTS? I'M SAYING THAT IT'S USEFUL IF IT GOES BACK TO BEING A QUIET, NOT PARTICULARLY ACKNOWLEDGED INTELLIGENCE-SHARING POOL. WHERE IT'S NOT HELPFUL IS AS A COORDINATION OF FOREIGN POLICY POSITIONING. AND THAT'S WHERE IT'S HEADED. I MEAN, IF YOU'VE GOT TULSI GABBARD, WHO'S THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, WHO IS SEEN BY SOME CRITICS AS A PRO-KREMLIN STANCE, OR HAVING A PRO-KREMLIN STANCE, WOULD NEW ZEALAND BE COMFORTABLE SHARING INTELLIGENCE INTO THAT ADMINISTRATION? NOT IN ITS RIGHT MIND, NO, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING TO GO. AND THE POINT OF THE FIVE EYES WAS IT WAS PRETTY TIGHT. NEW ZEALAND DIDN'T LEAK WHAT IT HAD. NOBODY DID. BUT IN THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU COULD NOT GUARANTEE THAT. WHAT ABOUT NEW ZEALAND'S NUCLEAR FREE STATUS IN THIS GEOPOLITICAL REPOSITIONING? I MEAN, THIS MIGHT SOUND LIKE A JEST QUESTION, BUT DO YOU THINK TRUMP KNOWS THAT HIS NUCLEAR-POWERED VESSELS CAN'T COME INTO NEW ZEALAND WATERS? AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE DOES FIND OUT? IF HE DOES FIND OUT, MAYBE WE'LL GET TARIFFS TRIPLED ON BEEF OR SOMETHING. IT'S VERY TRANSACTIONAL. BUT NO, I SUSPECT IT'S NOT EVEN ON HIS RADAR. BUT I THINK AT TIMES LIKE THESE, YOU KNOW, HANG ON TO THE OLD PRINCIPLES. WE ACTED OUT OF PRINCIPLE BECAUSE OF CONCERN ABOUT THE IMPACT OF NUCLEAR WAR. THIS IS THE 80th ANNIVERSARY YEAR OF THE BOMBING OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI. ANYONE WHO'S VISITED THERE KNOWS WHAT THAT DOES TO PEOPLE. OUR SOUTH PACIFIC NEIGHBOURHOOD IS VERY KEEN ON NUCLEAR-FREE ZONES. AND I WOULD NOT FOR A MOMENT BE IN SUPPORT OF PUTTING IT ASIDE. YOU'VE BEEN QUITE PUBLICLY INVOLVED IN SAYING THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULDN'T JOIN PILLAR II OF AUKUS. DOES ANY OF THIS POSITIONING OR VOLATILITY CHANGE THAT? SO, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO AUKUS UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION? ISN'T IT EVEN LESS LIKELY THAT AUSTRALIA WILL GET ITS SUBMARINES? THERE'S A DIFFERENT DEBATE IN AUSTRALIA. THERE'S CONCERN THAT, FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE 1960S, THEY WON'T HAVE THEIR OWN SUBMARINE CAPACITY BUT WILL END UP WITH A COUPLE OF AMERICAN BASES WHERE THE AMERICANS STATION THEIR OWN. SO IT'S A HUGE ISSUE FOR THEM. BUT AGAIN, I SEE AUKUS PILLAR II AS REALLY AN ATTEMPT TO DRAG NEW ZEALAND BACK INTO AN OPERATIONAL DEFENCE ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHICH WAS SOMETHING WE WERE EXTRACTED FROM IN THE MID-1980S, AND I DON'T SEE A CASE FOR GOING BACK TO IT. WE'VE SEEN THE PRESENCE OF THESE CHINESE VESSELS IN THE TASMAN. HOW CONCERNED SHOULD NEW ZEALAND BE ABOUT THAT? YES, WE WENT THROUGH THE STRAIT OF TAIWAN, BUT WE WEREN'T DOING LIVE FIRING EXERCISES. IT SEEMS TO BE AT A LEVEL THAT PERHAPS THEY'RE TRYING TO SEND A MESSAGE. I THINK THE LIVE FIRING WAS COMPLETELY OVER THE TOP. AND THERE WAS NO NOTICE OF IT. WHO KNOWS WHETHER THE ORDER CAME DOWN FROM BEIJING TO GO DOWN AND FIRE A FEW SHOTS AND RARK UP THE AUSTRALIANS AND NEW ZEALANDERS, OR WHETHER, YOU KNOW, NAVAL COMMAND SOMEWHERE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. WHO KNOWS? IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED, AND WINSTON PETERS WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO RAISE IT IN BEIJING THAT WE WOULD EXPECT AT LEAST THE COURTESY OF KNOWING THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. YOU CAN'T STOP THE CHINESE OR ANYBODY SAILING THROUGH THE TASMAN SEA, BUT YOU WOULD EXPECT SOME COURTESIES. AND THIS DEAL THAT THEY HAVE SIGNED WITH THE COOKS, WHICH DOES SEEM TO INCLUDE THE ABILITY TO BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE PORTS IN THE ISLANDS ` COULD THAT LEAD TO CHINA DEVELOPING A STRATEGIC PRESENCE IN THE COOKS? AT A STRETCH, YES, AND THIS IS WHY IT'S A HUGE CONCERN TO NEW ZEALAND. THE COOKS IS NOT JUST ANY SOUTH PACIFIC STATE. LIKE NIUE AND LIKE THE TOKELAUS, IT HAS A PARTICULAR STATUS WITH RESPECT TO NEW ZEALAND. UNLIKE SAMOA, IT NEVER OPTED FOR INDEPENDENCE. SAMOA COULDN'T WAIT TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE NEW ZEALAND WING. WE WERE NOT NICE TO SAMOA, AND I MADE AN APOLOGY WITH RESPECT TO HISTORICAL INJUSTICE ON THAT WHEN I WAS PRIME MINISTER. BUT COOKS NIUE, TOKELAU NEVER WENT. THEY KEPT NEW ZEALAND CITIZENSHIP, THEY KEPT THE PASSPORTS AND A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP, WHICH DOES REQUIRE CONSULTATION ON SIGNIFICANT FOREIGN POLICY AND SECURITY ISSUES. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN, AND THE COOKS HAVE SIGNED UP TO A RELATIONSHIP WHERE THEY AGREE TO SUPPORT CHINESE CANDIDATES IN INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATION ELECTIONS. CERTAINLY NO NEW ZEALAND PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENTS EVER AGREED TO THAT. THEY HAVE, IN EFFECT, OPEN THE WAY FOR SEABED MINERALS EXPLORATION AND FUTURE EXPLOITATION, WHICH HAS, OBVIOUSLY, HUGE QUESTION MARKS AROUND IT FOR THE MARINE ECOSYSTEM OF THE COOKS. THERE ARE A LOT OF FISHHOOKS IN WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN FROM THAT AGREEMENT, AND I THINK THE COOK ISLANDS GOVERNMENT IS RIGHT OUT OF COURT ON IT. AGAIN, WINSTON PETERS HAD TO GO TO BEIJING AND RAISE THIS. IS CHINA A THREAT TO NEW ZEALAND? I DON'T THINK IT'S A PHYSICAL THREAT TO NEW ZEALAND ` AS I SAY THREE SHIPS ISN'T EXACTLY AN INVADING FORCE. BUT THE REALITY IS THERE IS A LOT OF... THERE ARE A LOT OF CYBER ATTACKS. AND LET'S NOT BE SO NAIVE AS TO THINK THEY'RE ALL ONE WAY. YOU KNOW, A LOT OF COUNTRIES HAVE CAPACITY, OFFENSIVE CYBER CAPACITY. AND THERE'S NO RULES AROUND THAT AT ALL. SO NEW ZEALAND WOULD BE DOING THAT TO CHINA TOO? I DOUBT WE'VE GOT THAT CAPACITY, BUT CERTAINLY PEOPLE NEW ZEALAND ASSOCIATES WITH HAVE. SO, YOU KNOW, THOSE WITH HIGH CAPACITY-INTELLIGENCE SYSTEMS KNOW A LOT ABOUT WHAT OTHERS ARE DOING. AND EVEN WHEN I WAS PM, THERE WERE MANY, YOU KNOW, ATTEMPTS TO PENETRATE SAY THE ELECTRICITY GRID OR OTHER SYSTEMS AND SO ON. FROM CHINA? WELL, WHO KNOWS WHO THEY WERE FROM? BUT WHAT I KNOW IS YOU DO HAVE TO INVEST HEAVILY IN YOUR CYBER SECURITY. I'M NOT INTERESTED IN NEW ZEALAND GOING DOWN AN OFFENSIVE CAPACITY ROUTE, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR SYSTEMS SECURE. YOU'VE DEALT WITH AMERICAN PRESIDENTS WHO WERE IN FAIRLY BELLIGERENT MOODS ` YOU KNOW, AFTER 9-11, WE HAD GEORGE W BUSH SAYING, 'YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US.' AND THEN THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE FOR NEW ZEALAND TO GO INTO IRAQ IN 2003, WHICH YOU RESISTED. HOW DO WE STAND UP TO TRUMP? OR DO WE KEEP OUR HEADS DOWN? WHAT DO YOU THINK? I THINK FOR NEW ZEALAND, CERTAINLY IT SHOULDN'T BE REACTING TO EVERY STATEMENT PRESIDENT TRUMP MAKES, BECAUSE YOU'D NEVER SPEAK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. BUT THERE ARE THINGS WHERE YOU NEED TO STAND UP ON PRINCIPLE. AND I THINK SUPPORT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IS ONE OF THOSE. THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION HAS SLAPPED YOU WIDE SANCTIONS ON ANYONE WHO HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM. AND WE HAVE ALWAYS SUPPORTED THAT COURT, FROM THE TIME PAUL EAST WAS A KEY MOVER IN GETTING IT ESTABLISHED. SO WE NEED TO PICK OUR BATTLES, AS IT WERE, AND TRY TO KEEP A LEVEL OF CIVILITY OF DISCOURSE. I THINK WATCHING THE TOP EUROPEAN LEADERS THERE THIS WEEK ` PRESIDENT MACRON AND THEN KEIR STARMER ` YOU KNOW, REALLY CLASS ACTS OF ENGAGING WHILE DRAWING LINES. I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE. THAT'S THE LESSON FOR NEW ZEALAND TOO? ENGAGE BUT DRAW LINES. FORMER PRIME MINISTER HELEN CLARK. NOW, THERE IS MUCH MORE TO THAT INTERVIEW THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY ON TODAY'S SHOW, AND YOU CAN FIND ALL OF IT ON Q+A'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL. AFTER THE BREAK ` HOW DO THE GREENS REACT TO THE CHANGING WORLD? GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER MARAMA DAVIDSON IS WITH US, LIVE IN THE STUDIO. WHAT IS THE STATE OF THE PLANET RIGHT NOW? WELL, IN THEIR ANNUAL STATE OF THE PLANET SPEECHES, THE GREEN CO-LEADERS DESCRIBE THE WORLD AS A SCARY PLACE RIGHT NOW. TO EXPLAIN MORE, WE'RE JOINED BY CO-LEADER MARAMA DAVIDSON. KIA ORA. HOW ARE YOU? IT IS NINE MONTHS SINCE YOUR BREAST CANCER DIAGNOSIS. I MAILED TODAY AND REALLY GRATEFUL TO BE BACK. YOU WERE WATCHING THAT INTERVIEW WE PLAYED WITH HELEN CLARK. I SPOKE TO HER ON THE FRIDAY, THE NEXT MORNING ON THE SATURDAY, WE SAW A SEVERE DRESSING DOWN OFF PRESIDENT ZIELINSKI IN THE OVAL OFFICE BY JD VANCE AND BY DONALD TRUMP. I KNOW YOU ARE WATCHING THAT LIE. YOU WERE LOOKING AT THAT. WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE GEOPOLITICAL EARTHQUAKE THAT WE ARE WITNESSING RIGHT NOW? AS I WAS WATCHING IT GUY, IT REMINDED ME OF ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS WHERE VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE ARE BEING BLAMED FOR THEIR OWN VIOLENCE, AS BEING BLAMED FOR THE VIOLENCE BEING CLOSE TOWARDS HIM. THIS FENCE PICTURE EVEN MORE SO OF WHY WE HAVE TO REALLY REJECT AUKUS AND NOT TIE OURSELVES TO A LEADER WHO IS BEHAVING EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF PROMOTING DIPLOMACY, WHERE THAT'S WHERE OUR MOODS AS A COUNTRY SHOULD BE PROMOTING DIPLOMACY AND PEACE, AND NOT TYING OURSELVES TO THE MILITARY AGENDAS OF OTHER COUNTRY. HOW FAR YOU TAKE THAT? I GUESS THE GREENS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SKEPTICAL ABOUT THROWING OUR LOT TOO MUCH IN WITH THE UNITED STATES, BUT OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION OF THAT WITH HELEN CLARK, WE ARE IN THE FIVE EYES. WHAT IS THE GREENS CURRENT POSITION ON WHETHER WE SHOULD REMAIN? GET OUT OF THE PROPOSALS OF AUKUS. FIVE EYES GUY, WE WERE ALWAYS OPPOSED TO THE INTRUSION OF PEOPLE'S PRIVACY AND THE SHARING OF INFORMATION ACROSS OTHER COUNTRIES THAT THREATENED OUR INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY AS WELL. WATCHING HELEN CLARK, THE SHARING OF INFORMATION UNDER THE GUISE OF PEACE AND SAFETY ` IT DID NOT STOP THE HORRIFIC VIOLENCE AGAINST THE MOSQUES IN CHRISTCHURCH, THE TERRORISM AGAINST THE MUSLIM POPULATION IN NEW ZEALAND. , WE SHOULD NOT BE SHARING INFORMATION IN THE WAY THAT INTRUDES ON THAT POLICY AND IS ALWAYS IMPEDED ON THE ADDITION THIS PEOPLE AND ACTIVISTS, WHILE STILL NOT PREVENTING THE REAL DANGER. ARE YOU GOING AS FAR COULD WE HAVE BRIEF ANSWER SHOULD WE PART A FIVE EYES? WE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PART OF IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA OF NEW ZEALAND INCREASING OUR DEFENCE SPENDING? THE WORLD IS DOING THIS. TRUMP IS WATCHING THIS CAREFULLY TO. SHOULD NEW ZEALAND INCREASE ITS DEFENCE SPENDING IN YOUR VIEW? INCREASING MILITARY SPENDING IS NOT HOW WE PROMOTE PEACE, IS NOT HOW WE ACHIEVE PEACE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE WANTS, THAT'S WHAT THE WORLD WANTS. TRUMP WOULD ARGUE IT IS PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH. THAT'S WHAT HIS ARGUMENT IS. WE'VE SEEN FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS NOW THAT ANY SORT OF ARMS DEFENCE RACE ACTUALLY CAN JUST CONTINUE TO UPHOLD CONFLICT AND VIOLENCE. OUR FOCUS FOR MILITARY SPENDING INSTEAD NEEDS TO MAINTAIN DIPLOMACY JUSTICE AND PEACE, AND THAT'S WHERE OUR FOCUS ON ANY SPENDING SHOULD BE. WE MAY BE CALLED IN THE AS PEACEKEEPERS IN THE FUTURE IN THE UKRAINE SITUATION. WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT? WE DO WANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR THAT UKRAINE NEEDS A SPORT, AND NEW ZEALAND ABSOLUTELY SHOULD STAND FIRM IN ITS SUPPORT. WE ARE OPEN TO OUR FORCES BEING PART OF A PEACEKEEPING APPROACH THAT UPHOLDS INTERNATIONAL LAW. WE WOULD NEED TO SEE THE DETAILS OF ANY PEACEKEEPING MANDATES. YOU NEED THOSE TROOPS AND THAT MILITARY TO BE WELL RESOURCED TO DO THAT DON'T YOU? INCREASING OUR PEACEKEEPING ROLES, OUR RESPONSES TO HUMANITARIAN CRISES, WEATHER EVENTS FOR EXAMPLE YES WE CAN FOCUS OUR EXAMPLES ON THAT, BUT GUY... WE WOULD HAVE TO WRITE A LOT OF OTHER BUDGETS TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR THE CAPABILITIES, IF WE ARE EVEN TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH OTHER COUNTRIES MILITARY AGENDAS. WE SHOULD BE CLEAR INSTEAD ABOUT FOCUSING ON DIPLOMACY AND PEACE. LET US TAKE THE VIEW UP A LITTLE BIT. WHAT WE ARE SEEING ALSO AS A COMPLETE REPUDIATION OF THE SORTS OF THINGS AT THE GREEN PARTY STANDS FOR. WE SEE THIS AROUND THE WORLD TO SOME DEGREE. WE SEE THIS WHERE THE USA IS CUTTING DEI HIRES. WE SEE OTHER COUNTRIES SPENDING MORE DEFENCE IN THE BRIEFING OF CLIMATE CHANGE AGREEMENTS. DO YOU THINK, GLOBALLY, YOUR BRAND OF POLITICS OUT-OF-FAVOR? IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER RIGHT NOW THAT COMMUNITY SOLIDARITY IS PUT AT THE FOREFRONT OF POLITICAL LEADERSHIP. THERE ARE SOME VERY REAL FRUSTRATIONS THAT SOME POLITICAL LEADERS ARE EXPLOITING AND PITTING PEOPLE AGAINST EACH OTHER, WHEN INSTEAD NEW ZEALAND CAN BE A LEADING LIGHTS, AND WE HAVE PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT WE RESIST THAT DIVISIVE HATEFUL POLITICS THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD ARE PLAYING. THAT'S INTERESTING. SOMETIMES THE WAY YOU SPEAK IN THE WAY THE GREENS ARE POSSIBLY PART OF THIS TOO, CAN THIS BE DIVISIVE? BEING CLEAR AND SENDING OF PEOPLE WANTED TO TAKE CARE OF THE ATTACKS ON MIGRANT COMMUNITIES YES WE WILL ALWAYS UNAPOLOGETICALLY STAND UP AGAINST THAT. PHOTO FOR YOUR SEEING IS THAT STANDING UPFOR TE TIRITI, STANDING UP A RAINBOW PEOPLE IN TANGATA WHENUA, MIGRANT COMMUNITIES SURE, BUT WE HAVE SEEN THE WORLD TURNING AGAINST US HAVEN'T WE? WE SEEM GREEN PARTIES KICKED OUT OF PARLIAMENT IN IRELAND, GERMANY, AND WE ARE SEEING THE FAR RIGHT RISE. WHAT IS BEHIND THAT? THAT'S EXACTLY WHY NEW ZEALAND CAN SHOW OURSELVES TIME HE CAN BEGIN TO REJECT THOSE DIVISIVE POLITICS. WE HAVE NOT HAD FOUR OR FIVE DECADES OF AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT CONCENTRATES POWER AND WEALTH INTO THE HANDS OF THE FEW. PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING TO HAVE KAI TO SUPPORT THE WHANAU, TO PUT DOWN ROOTS AND SUPPORT THE FAMILY. WE SEE THE STRUGGLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND THAT IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE CAN CHANGE THAT. WE HAVE AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT IS DESIGNED BY POLITICIANS AND US. WE CAN CHANGE THAT SO THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH DIGNITY AND STOP BEING PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER, WHICH ALLOWS POLITICIANS TO EXPLOIT THAT REAL FRUSTRATION. THAT'S POLITICS OF CARE AND MANAAKI IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE IN THE GREENS BUDGET, AND I'M REALLY PROUD OF THAT. WILL YOU SPELL OUT EXACTLY HOW YOU WILL DO THAT? THE BUDGET WILL FOCUS ON THE FACT THAT WE CAN HAVE SCHOOL LUNCHES, WE CAN HAVE TAMARIKI HAVING GOOD QUALITY LUNCHES. IT IS A POLITICS OF CARE, A POLITICAL DECISION, AND THAT'LL BE AT THE HEART OF OUR WORKING BUDGET. YOUR COPARTNER HAS TALKED ABOUT THE GREENS SUPERSEDING LABOUR TO BE THE STRONGEST VOICE ON THE LEFT. I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE STRENGTH OF COMMUNITY. THAT'S WHERE OUR FOCUS IS. ARE YOU FOCUSING TO BE THE DOMINANT PARTY ON THE LEFT? WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT PEOPLE ONES TO BE CARED FOR AND TO CARE FOR OTHERS. THAT'S THE POWER THAT WILL MAKE SURE THAT WE WILL MAKE SURE WE HAVE THE MOST PROGRESSIVE GOVERNMENT IN THE NEXT ELECTION IF PEOPLE REALISE THEIR OWN POWER, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE CONFIDENT ABOUT BUILDING. YOU HAVE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE CONCERNS OF THE ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE IN POVERTY, BUT WE HAVE SEEN AGAIN WE CAN GO THROUGH THE STATS IF YOU WANT THAT THE GREENS ARE GETTING THEIR SUPPORT FROM THE RICHER ELECTORATES. IN THE POOR ELECTORATES, YOU ARE WELL BELOW WHAT THE AVERAGE ARE. WHY IS IT THAT BY AND LARGE POOR PEOPLE ARE NOT VOTING FOR THE GREENS? WE KNOW IT IS NOT JUST POOR COMMUNITIES WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR THE THINGS WE CARE ABOUT, IT IS NOT JUST POOR COMMUNITIES WHO WANT TO SEE EVERYONE HOUSED. IN CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. WE KNOW THAT THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM HAS CONCENTRATED WEALTH AND POWER IN THE HANDS OF A FEW. THAT HAS ALSO ALLEGED PEOPLE FEELING THIS ENCOURAGED TO ENGAGE IN POLITICS. MY MESSAGES, YES ENGAGE IN POLITICS. PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DISEMPOWERED FOR GENERATIONS CAN ENGAGE IN POWER. WE CAN CUT THROUGH THE DIVISIVE POLITICS THAT IS HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD. WE CAN PULL ON OUR VALUES OF LOOKING AFTER EACH OTHER BETTER, AND THAT'S WHERE OURPOWER LIES. ARE YOU COMMITTED TO STAYING OUT THE TERM? YES. I'VE SEEN THE SOLIDARITY OUT ON THE STREETS OF PEOPLE PICKING EACH OTHER UP, AND SAYING WE CAN DO BETTER. I SAW AN UNCLE HAD NEVER MADE A ORAL SUBMISSION TO GOVERNMENT IN HIS LIFE, AND THROUGH THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL ATTACKS, HE SAID TO MARLA, PLEASE HELP ME TO MAKE A SUBMISSION. THAT, WAKING UP WITH THE HOPE TO DO BETTER FOR EACH OTHER, IS WHERE I KNOW OUR STRENGTH LIES. WILL YOU STAND AT 2026? I'M COMMITTED TO STANDING AND GETTING THE MOST CARING GOVERNMENT WE'VE EVER SEEN IN AOTEAROA. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. YOU CAN EMAIL US AND FIND US ON X AND FACEBOOK, AND AT qanda@tvnz.co.nz. AFTER THE BREAK ` YOU KNOW YOU'VE GOT PROBLEMS WHEN THE MOST POPULAR MAN IN TOWN DRIVES THE WATER TANKER. WE TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT WATER WILL RUN CLEAN FROM THE TAP, BUT WHAT'S IT LIKE TO LIVE IN A TOWN WITH FOUL WATER? WHENA OWEN WENT TO MARTON, WHERE THE LOCALS HAVE STRUGGLED WITH THAT PROBLEM FOR DECADES. THE TASTE AND THE SMELL. THE SMELL'S TERRIBLE. SWAMP WATER. YOU CAN'T DRINK IT, CAN'T SHOWER IN IT, CAN'T WASH YOUR CLOTHES IN IT. IN THE RANGITIKEI TOWN OF MARTON, THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE WATER; AND LOCALS ARE KEEN TO TELL YOU HOW THEY'VE PUT UP WITH IT FOR DECADES. OVER THE YEARS, I'D GO TO THE PUB, I'M SITTING THERE HAVING A BEER, AND THEN SOMEONE'LL WALK IN ` YOU KNOW THEY'VE JUST HAD A SHOWER. BECAUSE YOU COULD SMELL IT ON THEM? OH YEAH, YOU DO. IT MAKES YOU ITCHY. MAKES YOU SCRATCH. RANGITIKEI DISTRICT COUNCIL MAYOR, ANDY WATSON, TELLS US HE DRINKS THE WATER AND SHOWS US WHERE IT COMES FROM. THE COMMUNITY HAVE RAISED THE ISSUES ABOUT THE QUALITY OF OUR DRINKING WATER, AND THE FIRST THING I'LL ABSOLUTELY SAY IS IT IS ABSOLUTELY SAFE TO DRINK. SO DESPITE THE SMELL AND SOMETIMES THE DISCOLOURATION, IT'S SAFE TO DRINK? YEAH. AND SOMETIMES` THE SMELL AND DISCOLOURATION THAT YOU TALK ABOUT COMES AND GOES A LITTLE BIT. IT'S ASSOCIATED WITH AN ALGAL BLOOM USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH WARM WEATHER. BUT MARTON'S WATER MEETS THE NATIONAL DRINKING WATER STANDARDS. OUR WATER REGULATOR, TAUMATA AROWAI, HAS FOCUSED MORE ON PREVENTING WATERBORNE DISEASE FROM PATHOGENS. AFTER THE CRYPTOSPORIDIOSIS OUTBREAK IN QUEENSTOWN WATER IN 2023, COUNCILS HAVE UNTIL THE END OF THIS YEAR TO INSTALL DISINFECTION TREATMENT BARRIERS. MOST HAVE ALREADY COMPLIED. (LAID-BACK MUSIC) BACK IN MARTON, WE MEET THE MOST POPULAR GUY IN TOWN. IN SUMMER, I'M GOD. (LAUGHS) NIGEL HAMMOND BRINGS A TANKER-LOAD OF WATER INTO TOWN TWICE A WEEK FOR THE LOCALS. SO, THIS IS GOOD HUNTERVILLE WATER? YEAH, IT'S BEAUTIFUL. NICE AND SOFT. YEAH, IT'S DELICIOUS. (LAUGHS) THE TANKER WATER IS COURTESY OF THE COUNCIL, A COUNCIL THIS SENIOR RESIDENT SYMPATHISES WITH. I MEAN, THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY CAN ABOUT IT, AND THAT TAKES TIME. AND THEY'VE HAD ALL THIS UPSET WITH THIS THREE WATERS BLOODY BUSINESS, NOT KNOWING WHERE THEY'RE COMING AND BLOODY GOING. IT'S NOT SPECIFIC TO US, CERTAINLY. HOWEVER, OUR COUNCIL HAS BEEN VERY PROACTIVE, AND IN SPITE OF ALL OF THE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LOCAL WATER DONE WELL ` AND BEFORE THAT, THE THREE WATERS FROM THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT ` WE TOOK A STANCE TO SAY THAT THESE PLANTS NEED TO BE UPGRADED. AND THEY HAVE SPENT $11 MILLION PREPARING TO SWITCH THEIR WATER SOURCE FROM DAM TO GROUND WATER. IT WILL START TO KICK IN THIS SPRING, BUT WON'T BE FULLY UP-AND-RUNNING FROM THE TAPS UNTIL NEXT SUMMER. ALTHOUGH MARTON'S WATER IS NOT A HEALTH RISK, FOR MANY RESIDENTS IT COMES DOWN TO BAD TASTE AND SMELL. SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. AND WE WERE KEEN TO TRY IT OUT. THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY MOVED FROM RURAL SAMOA TO MARTON, AND WERE SURPRISED THAT IN A NEW ZEALAND TOWN, THEY COULDN'T DRINK THE WATER. SO YOU WON'T DRINK THAT? NAH, WE WILL NOT DRINK IT. YOU'RE NOT DRINKING IT? NO. SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR WATER FROM? WE BUY FROM THE SHOP. ALL RIGHT. SMELLS LIKE A DEAD POSSUM. OK. MM. YEAH, I COULDN'T DRINK THAT EVERY DAY, TO BE HONEST. LIKE OTHER MARTON RESIDENTS, THIS FAMILY IS HANGING OUT FOR THE DAY THEY'LL HAVE THE MOST BASIC OF COMMODITIES ` GOOD, QUALITY DRINKING WATER. AFTER THE BREAK ` STOP, THIEF! WE'RE TALKING CITIZENS' ARRESTS. THE GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED LAW CHANGES ARE ON THE WAY TO ALLOW GREATER POWERS OF CITIZENS' ARREST, IN RESPONSE TO SUGGESTIONS FROM THE MINISTERIAL ADVISORY GROUP ON RETAIL CRIME. SUNNY KAUSHAL IS THE CHAIR OF THAT ADVISORY GROUP, AND HE JOINS US NOW. GOOD MORNING. VERY GOOD MORNING. ARE YOU EXPECTING THIS LAW CHANGE TO RESULT IN MORE PEOPLE CONDUCTING CITIZENS ARREST FOR RETAIL CRIME? OUR PROPOSALS, THEY ARE EMPOWERING THE VICTIMS OF CRIME TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND THEIR PROPERTY AND TO ENSURE THAT THE LEGAL SYSTEM BACKS THEM WHEN THEY DO. THIS PROPOSAL DOES NOT DO SOMETHING IT IS NOT A DUTY, IT IS AN OPTION. IT IS NOT ASKING THAT YOU MUST ARREST, BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT THE LAW IS ON YOUR SIDE. THE LAW IS ON THE SIDE OF THE VICTIMS. YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE IT. OK./ LET'S LOOK AT THE PROBLEM YOU ARE TRYING TO SOLVE. HAD THERE BEEN MANY CASES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM THEFT OR OTHER CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR? THERE HAS BEEN CASES. THERE HAS BEEN LOTS OF RETAILERS OR DAIRY OWNERS. WHEN THEY TRIED TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, THEY GOT CHARGED. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY? I REMEMBER GIVING ABOUT FIVE CASES TO 1 OF THE NEWSTALK ZB ANCHORS. FIVE CASES OVER A FEW YEARS. BUT NOT A WIDESPREAD PROBLEM. NO, BUT THIS IS AGAIN, NOT ABOUT, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS EMPOWER THE RETAILERS TO BETTER PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY AND THEMSELVES AND ALSO, WE ARE ADDRESSING THE GAPS IN THE LAWS. WE ARE ALSO BRINGING THEM IN LINE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA AND CANADA. YOU HAD FOUR OTHER MEMBERS ON YOUR MINISTERIAL ADVISORY GROUP. HOW MANY OF THEM SUPPORTED THIS IDEA? WHAT HAPPENS, IT IS A DEMOCRACY. WE HAD PEOPLE PROPOSE THE IDEAS, AND THE MAJORITY OF THEM CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA. BUT HOW MANY SUPPORTED THIS IDEA? THE MAJORITY SUPPORTED THAT ONE. THREE OUT OF FIVE? THEY REPRESENT THEIR AREAS OF SECTORS. THEY COME UP WITH THE PROPOSALS, AND THEN WE GO TO THE KEY STAKEHOLDERS, AND WE LOOK AT INTERNATIONAL PRACTICES. I ASK BECAUSE RETAIL CHIEF EXECUTIVE CAROLINE YOUNG SAYS THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. PEOPLE WILL BE HURT OR KILLED. FRONTLINE RETAIL WORKERS DO NOT GO TO WORK TO DO LAW ENFORCEMENT. THAT WOULD BE BAD ENOUGH IF IT WAS JUST CRITICISM FROM INSIDE, BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF YOUR GROUP. SHE IS PROBABLY RESPONDING, FROM THE RETAIL NZ SIDE. THIS IS A GROUP TO LOOK AT RETAIL CRIME. WE HAVE DISSENTING OPINIONS. YOU HAVE TO ASK CAROLINE, WHAT IS HER DISSENTING OPINION. SHE HAS GIVEN IT QUITE CLEARLY. YOU HAVE HAD THE POLICE ASSOCIATION SAYING IT IS NOT WORTH GETTING HURT. YOU HAVE HAD THE EMPLOYERS ASSOCIATION, THE MOTOR TRADE ASSOCIATION, UNIONS REPRESENTING RETAIL WORKERS. BRIAN TAMAKI WANTS THIS, BUT WHO ELSE? THESE OTHER TOOLS. NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD HAVE THE TOOLS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES THEIR BUSINESSES AND THEIR PROPERTIES. RIGHT NOW, OUR LAWS ARE VERY CONFUSING. THEY ARE INCONSISTENT AND NOT APPLICABLE IN TODAY'S NEW ZEALAND. IT IS HARD TO ARGUE THAT THEY ARE A BIT CONFUSING, BECAUSE YOU CAN DO A CITIZENS ARREST, BUT IT HAS TO BE AT NIGHT, AND IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING WORTH $1000 OR MORE. IT IS CONFUSING, BUT ISN'T THE WAY THIS IS BEING ANNOUNCED AND APPROACHED AND PUSHED FORWARD LOOK LIKE IT IS GOING TO ENCOURAGE MORE PEOPLE TO DO THIS AT THE RISK OF SOMEONE GETTING BADLY HURT? IT DOES NOT INCREASE. THERE ARE TOOLS AVAILABLE, SO THESE ARE NOT RADICAL CHANGES. ALSO, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING NEW. THE CITIZENS ARREST LAW ALREADY EXISTS HERE. WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU IS, THE LAW WHICH WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS CONFUSING AND THAT WAS MEANT FOR A VERY DIFFERENT NEW ZEALAND. IT IS NOT JUST 1961. GOES BACK TO 1908. THAT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT NEW ZEALAND. FARMING NEW ZEALAND. LET'S NOT LITIGATE THAT. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME SCENARIOS HOW THIS MIGHT WORK. LET'S SAY A RETAILER SUSPECTS SOMEONE OF STEALING SOMETHING AND MAKES A CITIZENS ARREST, AND IT TURNS OUT THEY HAVEN'T STOLEN SOMETHING. WOULD YOU BE VULNERABLE TO A CIVIL CLAIM? IT IS ABOUT THE JUDGEMENT. I UNDERSTAND THOSE RETAILERS AND KIWIS, THEY HAVE BETTER JUDGEMENT. TOMORROW YOU ARE WALKING IN A STREET, AND SOMEBODY TRIED TO ROB YOU, OR MAYBE MUG YOU, AND YOU TRY TO YELL FOR HELP, AND I AM WALKING BY, SHOULD I NOT COME TO SUPPORT YOU AND HELP YOU OR SHOULD I LOOK ASIDE? WE ARE TRYING TO SAY, IF THERE IS A SITUATION, CALL THE POLICE. IF THE SITUATION, YOU CAN PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY, YOU CAN, BECAUSE THE LAW ALLOWS IT. BUT YOU WON'T HAVE TO. AT THE SAME TIME, CALL POLICE AND FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. THIS ALLOWS YOU TO RESTRAIN THE PERSON, AS LONG AS YOU ARE WITHIN REASONABLE BOUNDS. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO CALL THE POLICE, BUT OFTEN THE POLICE DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO GET THERE. SAY IN A DAIRY, WHAT IS SOMEONE SUPPOSED TO DO? RESTRAIN SOMEONE FOR AN HOUR BEFORE THE POLICE GET THERE? NOW POLICE ARE RESPONDING VERY FAST. I HAVE BEEN TRAVELLING ACROSS THE COUNTRY TALKING TO RETAILERS, AND THERE IS GOOD NEWS, BECAUSE OF INCREASED PATROLLING, POLICE ARE RESPONDING VERY FAST, AND THAT IS WHAT YOU SEE CRIME GETTING UNDER CONTROL. IN 2022, THERE WAS A 550% RISE IN RAM RAIDS. EVERY 10 HOURS, THERE WAS A ROBBERY. ARE YOU HEARING NOW? NOT THAT MUCH. SO THE POLICE IS DOING A GREAT JOB. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS GET THE JUSTICE SYSTEM RESPONSE EQUALLY. THAT IS THE POLICE PERFORMANCE. WHAT THIS SEEMS TO DO IS ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TAKE THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS. NO, IT DOESN'T. WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU IS YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT. BUT NOW THE LAW IS ON YOUR SIDE. THE LAW IS ON THE SIDE OF THE VICTIMS. YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE IT. BUT IN CASE IT IS REQUIRED, YOU HAVE THE TOOL, AND THE LEGAL SYSTEM WOULD BACK YOU. DID YOU SEE BRIAN TAMAKI'S COMMENTS? HAVE YOU GOT A RESPONSE? THIS IS NOT ABOUT VIGILANTISM. THE VIGILANTES WOULD BE SORELY DISAPPOINTED, BECAUSE IT IS NOT SUPPORTING VIGILANTISM. THIS IS ABOUT EMPOWERING KIWIS, NEW ZEALANDERS WHO SHOULD HAVE THE LEGAL TOOLS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND THEIR PROPERTY AND THEIR FAMILIES. ARE YOU PREPARED FOR HOW YOU MIGHT REACT AND HOW YOU MIGHT FEEL IF SOMEONE MAKING A CITIZENS ARREST IS BADLY HURT OR KILLED? THERE IS THE JUDGEMENT. THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THE ARREST DOES NOT HAVE TO. FIRST, THEY NEED TO CALL THE POLICE, AND IF THEY FEEL SAFE, THEN THEY CAN MAKE THE ARREST, OTHERWISE YOU DON'T HAVE TO, AND FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS UNTIL POLICE ARRIVED. HOW DOES THE INSURANCE SITUATION WORK? DO DAIRY OWNERS HAVE INSURANCE FOR THEFT OF THEIR PRODUCTS? YES, I BELIEVE THEY DO HAVE COMPREHENSIVE INSURANCE, AND THAT IS ANOTHER TOPIC TO DISCUSS. THE INSURANCE PREMIUM GOES UP, THEY HAVE TO PAY THE EXCESS. SO DAIRY OWNERS ARE AT THE END OF RECEIVING THEM. YOU DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE ANY SCENARIO WHERE INSURANCE WOULD BE AFFECTED BY NOT TRYING TO MAKE A CITIZENS ARREST? I AM NOT SURE ON THAT ONE. WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THE KEY FACTOR DRIVING TODAY'S LAWLESSNESS ACROSS NEW ZEALAND IS THE LACK OF CONSEQUENCES. WE NEED TO GET TO ZERO TOLERANCE TO RETAIL CRIME, AND OFFENDERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, AND THEY SHOULD KNOW THEY WILL BE CAUGHT. GETTING CAUGHT, THE FEAR OF GETTING CAUGHT STOPS CRIME. IT IS ABOUT DETERRENCE. IN THIS MINISTERIAL ADVISORY GROUP, THIS WAS THE BIG IDEA THAT CAME OUT LAST WEEK. ARE THE OTHER BIG IDEAS? THERE ARE LOTS OF BIG IDEAS WE ARE ALREADY WORKING ON. THIS IS THE FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THE MINISTER HAS MADE ON THE PROPOSALS. THIS ONE WILL GO TO THE BILLS, SO ONLY THE MINISTER CAN TALK ABOUT THE BILL AND THE FURTHER PROCESSED. WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL HERE IS YES WE ARE WORKING ON, FOR EXAMPLE, THE OTHER AREAS OF CRIME AND ALSO THE SENTENCING ACT, EVEN THE TRESPASS ACT, WHICH IS TOO OLD. AND THE FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY, PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY, A LOT OF THINGS WE NEED TO FIX. ALSO REMEMBER, WE ARE ONLY HERE FOR ANOTHER YEAR. NEXT YEAR WE WIND UP. WE NEED TO GIVE OUR PROPOSALS, WHICH ARE EVIDENCE-BASED, PRACTICAL. A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT. A LOT OF THIS HAS BEEN BASED ON THE PROBLEMS FACING DAIRY OWNERS IN THE PAST. A LOT OF THIS HAS BEEN ROOTED IN THOSE CONCERNS. WHAT IS THE FUTURE FOR THE DAIRY? YOU'RE SEEING CONVENIENCE STORES AND PETROL STATIONS TAKING OVER. DOESN'T HAVE A FUTURE? WHERE THERE IS A MARKET, THERE IS A FUTURE. SOME OF THE CORNER DAIRIES ARE DOING WELL. IT IS ONLY IN THE LAST GOVERNMENT, WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE SMOKE LAWS AND COVID HAS HIT LOTS OF DAIRIES. YOU TALKED ABOUT TOBACCO AND NICOTINE. YOU PUT INFORMATION OUT LAST YEAR SAYING THAT CIGARETTES OR TOBACCO ACCOUNTED FOR HALF OF DAIRY SALES. THAT WAS THE REPORT THAT WE QUOTED, NEARLY 47% OF REVENUE. THEY ARE RELYING ON TOBACCO SALES. THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE LEGITIMATE PRODUCTS THEY WERE SELLING. COULD THEY SURVIVE WITHOUT THAT? SOME DAIRIES ARE SURVIVING. THEY HAVE SAID NO TO TOBACCO. BUT THEY ARE TRANSITIONING TO THE GROCERY MARKET AND REMODELLING THEMSELVES. OF COURSE IT IS REINVENTING. THE DAIRIES HAVE BEEN GOOD OLD KIWI INSTITUTION. WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NICOTINE INDUSTRY? I HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NICOTINE INDUSTRY, AND I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THEIR FUNDING AND SUPPORT. BUT IT IS STILL A KEY PRODUCT FOR THOSE DAIRIES? THERE ARE MANUFACTURERS, SUPPLYING TO RETAILERS, SO THEY HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEMSELVES. JUST TO FINISH UP, YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THOSE ISSUES THEY ARE FACING FROM A COMMERCIAL PERSPECTIVE. WHAT YOU THINK OF THE GROCERY COMMISSIONER AND HOW HE HAS APPROACHED HIS ROLE? THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB. BUT WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THE COMPETITION THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CREATED IN THE MARKET, WE ARE STILL FAR AWAY FROM THAT. OTHERWISE, THESE DAIRIES AND SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO SELL GROCERIES AT A LEVEL, AT PAR, AND GIVE COMPETITION TO THE BIG DUOPOLY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR DISCUSSING THAT WITH US. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW LIVE, YOU CAN ALSO WATCH US ON TVNZ+, WHERE YOU CAN FIND ALL OF Q+A's WORK, AS WELL AS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S NEWSROOM. STAY WITH US. Q+A WILL BE RIGHT BACK. NOW, JUST SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING THE SHOW ON TVNZ1 OR TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO LISTEN TO Q+A AS A PODCAST. JUST SEARCH 'Q+A' WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9am. CAPTIONS BY JASON CONRAN AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025