CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 TENA KOUTOU ` NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, THE MAN CHARGED WITH ENSURING FAIRNESS AND ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR COMES OUT FIRING. HEALTH NEW ZEALAND IS A DISGRACE. WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HEALTH ISSUES. IT'S THE ONE THING THAT NEW ZEALANDERS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT, AND HAVE GOT THE RIGHT TO KNOW ABOUT. TRYING TO GET OFFICIAL INFORMATION OUT OF HEALTH NEW ZEALAND HAS BEEN A NIGHTMARE. THEN ` CAN AND SHOULD THE CHATEAU TONGARIRO BE SAVED? THE CHATEAU LOOKS LIKE FAWLTY TOWERS. THE SURROUNDING BUILDINGS ARE DECREPIT. WE'LL HAVE THAT INTERVIEW SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE PRIME MINISTER'S FULL COURT PRESS IN THE WORLD'S MOST POPULOUS NATION. WITH GDP FIGURES RELEASED THIS WEEK BETTER THAN MANY ANALYSTS HAD EXPECTED, CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAYS NEW ZEALAND IS LIFTING OUT OF ECONOMIC MALAISE. EXPANDING TRADE IS CENTRAL TO HIS PLEDGE TO DRIVE GREATER ECONOMIC GROWTH, AND AFTER A DECADE HIATUS, FTA NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN INDIA AND NEW ZEALAND ARE SET TO RESUME. AS HE WRAPPED UP HIS TIME IN INDIA THIS WEEK, CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAT DOWN WITH 1 NEWS POLITICAL EDITOR MAIKI SHERMAN. BIG PICTURE ` HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE PROGRESS YOU'VE MADE ON THIS TRIP? OH, I THINK IT'S BEEN A REALLY SUCCESSFUL TRIP, I THINK ` EITHER WAY WE LOOK AT IT, THROUGH THE POLITICAL LENS, THROUGH THE BUSINESS OR THE COMMUNITY LENSES. I'M REALLY PROUD OF WHAT WE'VE ACHIEVED HERE OVER THE LAST WEEK. IT'S BEEN REALLY SUCCESSFUL. THESE ARE TWO COUNTRIES THAT ACTUALLY SHOULD BE DOING A LOT MORE TOGETHER, AND THERE'S COMMITMENT FROM BOTH PRIME MINISTER MODI AND MYSELF AND OUR RESPECTIVE TEAMS TO KEEP BUILDING THAT OUT, AND BUILDING THAT RELATIONSHIP FURTHER AND DEEPER. IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT IS THE MOST HIGH-PRIORITY, NON-NEGOTIABLE ASPECT TO A DEAL FOR THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT ` BASICALLY, IF THEY DON'T GET IT, THEY WON'T SIGN? OH, LOOK, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING GETTING IN THE WAY. I THINK WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IS A PROJECTION FROM BOTH PRIME MINISTERS TO OUR TRADE MINISTERS, AND ON TO OUR TEAMS, THAT ACTUALLY, WE WANT TO DO A DEAL. I'M SURE, AS WE GET INTO THE NEGOTIATIONS, THERE'LL BE SENSITIVE ISSUES ON ALL SIDES, BUT IF YOU'RE IN THE INDIAN 'PROSPECTIVE', YOU KNOW, THEY ARE REALLY DETERMINED TO MOVE FROM LOW- TO MIDDLE- TO HIGH-INCOME, AND THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE GROWTH, GROWTH, GROWTH FOR THE NEXT 50 TO 100 YEARS. AND SO, REALLY, FOR THEM, IT'S ABOUT ACTUALLY COOPERATING WITH NEW ZEALAND ON THINGS LIKE AGRICULTURE, WHERE THEY SEE HUGE OPPORTUNITIES. IF YOU JUST TAKE A STEP BACK, PROBABLY 45% OF THIS POPULATION WORK IN AGRICULTURE. IT'S VERY SMALL-SCALE, IT'S OFTEN JUST ONE OR TWO COWS PER FARM, OR FARMLET, AND IT'S ONLY 15% OF THEIR REVENUE. SO THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO COOPERATE WITH NEW ZEALAND TO IMPROVE THE PRODUCTIVITY SO THEY CAN LIFT THE LIVING STANDARDS OF THEIR PEOPLE, AND SO THERE'S HUGE AREAS OF COMPLEMENTARITY WHERE I THINK WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO FIND A GOOD WAY THROUGH. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THEY'LL ALSO BE INTERESTED IN VISAS, AND THAT WILL BE A BIG PART OF NEGOTIATIONS? YEAH, LOOK, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT` WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY NEGOTIATIONS YET, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAS BEEN AGREED, SAY, WITH AUSTRALIA, EVEN WHAT'S BEEN TALKED ABOUT WITH THE BRITS AND THE EU AGREEMENTS THAT ARE SORT OF EMERGING, YOU KNOW, THAT WILL BE OF AN INTEREST. BUT AGAIN, WHAT IT IS FOR INDIA IS ACTUALLY THE ABILITY TO BE` YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE ` IF YOU TAKE EDUCATION, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE VERY, VERY KEEN FOR NEW ZEALAND INSTITUTIONS TO COME AND ACTUALLY HAVE CAMPUSES HERE IN INDIA, AS WELL AS OBVIOUSLY FOR STUDENTS TO COME TO NEW ZEALAND TO LEARN AND GET EDUCATED, BUT TO COME BACK HOME AGAIN. AND SO I'M SURE THERE'S THINGS` THERE'S THINGS LIKE MULTIPLE-ENTRY VISAS THAT I THINK WOULD BE REALLY HELPFUL FOR BUSINESSPEOPLE ` YOU KNOW, TO BE ABLE TO COME IN AND OUT OF THIS COUNTRY AS THEY DO BUSINESS HERE, RATHER THAN HAVING TO DO IT EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME. SO THERE'S ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WE'RE VERY UP FOR LOOKING AT AS WE GO FORWARD. JUST ON THAT ` I'VE HEARD FROM A FORMER INDIAN HIGH COMMISSIONER TO NEW ZEALAND WHO SAID THAT THEY WERE ASKED FOR A POLICE CLEAR CERTIFICATE DESPITE HOLDING A DIPLOMATIC PASSPORT IN ORDER TO GET INTO NEW ZEALAND. ARE WE TOO... SCRUTINOUS? DO WE PUT TOO MUCH SCRUTINY ON INDIANS AT THE BORDER? YEAH, LOOK, IMMIGRATION'S ALWAYS ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF RISK AROUND. BUT I AGREE WITH YOU ` I THINK WE'RE VERY OPEN, AND WE'VE SIGNALLED THAT TO IMMIGRATION NEW ZEALAND AS, 'LOOK, LET'S BALANCE THE RISK 'THAT WE'RE TRYING TO MANAGE, BUT LET'S NOT BE ANY LESS COMPETITIVE 'THAN, SAY, AUSTRALIA OR THE UK OR ANY OTHER COUNTRIES,' BECAUSE WHAT WE NOW WANT TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN FACILITATE THOSE PEOPLE-TO-PEOPLE CONNECTIONS. SO WHETHER IT IS STUDENTS COMING HERE, OR BUSINESSPEOPLE COMING HERE, OR CONNECTIONS BETWEEN OUR COMMUNITY SECTORS, WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT EASIER. AND AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, WE'RE OPEN FOR FIXING WHAT'S NOT WORKING. THAT'S IMPORTANT. YOU SAID THE WORD 'RISK' THERE. ARE WE TOO SCEPTICAL THAT INDIANS POSE A GREATER RISK? NO. IT'S JUST THAT IN GENERAL, WHEN YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'VE GOT A GOOD IMMIGRATION SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE MANAGING RISKS FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD. AND THAT'S NOT A` THAT'S JUST A NATURAL REALITY OF ANY AND EVERY IMMIGRATION SYSTEM THAT EVERY COUNTRY HAS. BUT FOR OUR POINT OF VIEW, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE MAKING IT AS EASY AND AS FRICTIONLESS AS POSSIBLE TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE CONNECTIONS NOW CAN CONTINUE TO GO FORWARD. AND SO, AS YOU'VE SEEN, I'M VERY OPEN FOR US REVISITING THAT. DO WE REALLY NEED A POLICE CLEARANCE FORM, THOUGH, FOR A FORMER HIGH COMMISSIONER TO NEW ZEALAND` WELL, I DON'T KNOW` ...WHO HOLDS A DIPLOMATIC PASSPORT? YEAH, I DON'T KNOW` I MEAN, I WON'T GO INTO THE SPECIFICS OF INDIVIDUAL CASES. ALL I'M JUST SIGNALLING TO YOU IS I THINK THERE ARE SETTINGS THAT WE CAN, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE MAKE IT` YOU KNOW, WHAT'S OUR GOAL HERE? OUR GOAL IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT DEEPER CONNECTIVITY, DEEPER RELATIONSHIP, MORE TRADE HAPPENING, MORE CONNECTIONS, AND IF OUR IMMIGRATION SETTINGS NEED TO BE REVIEWED AND REVISITED, AND THEY'RE UNCOMPETITIVE RELATIVE TO OTHER LIKE-MINDED COUNTRIES WITH RELATIONSHIPS TO INDIA, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY FOR THAT MATTER, WE SHOULD REVISIT THEM. LET'S TALK ABOUT NEW ZEALAND FIRST, BECAUSE SHANE JONES, AS RECENTLY AS 2020, SAID TOO MANY INDIAN EXCHANGE STUDENTS HAVE RUINED NEW ZEALAND'S UNIVERSITIES, AND TOO MANY PEOPLE, QUOTE, 'FROM NEW DELHI' ARE BEING ALLOWED INTO NEW ZEALAND. IS NEW ZEALAND FIRST ON BOARD WITH YOUR TRADE MISSION? ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. YOU'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, WINSTON PETERS COME HERE HIMSELF PHYSICALLY AS FOREIGN MINISTER. HE'S DONE A VERY GOOD VISIT HERE. YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY SEEN US BUILD IT WITH OTHER MINISTERS AS WELL. BUT TOTALLY, ALL THREE PARTIES IN OUR COALITION KNOW THAT WE WANT TO HAVE A DEEPER, BIGGER, BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH INDIA GOING FORWARD. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT CRITICISM FROM SHANE JONES? WELL, YOU'D HAVE TO ASK HIM. I WASN'T AWARE OF HIS COMMENTS AND I DON'T KNOW WHEN HE MADE THEM, BUT I MEAN, ALL I'M SAYING TO YOU IS A COALITION GOVERNMENT UNDERSTANDS ABOUT GROWTH. WE UNDERSTAND ABOUT HAVING DEEPER AND BETTER RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE INDO-PACIFIC. IT'S PARTLY WHY WINSTON PETERS, MYSELF, JUDITH COLLINS, TODD MCCLAY, YOU KNOW, WORKED TOGETHER AS A TIGHT FOURSOME TO SAY, HOW DO WE LIFT THE ENERGY AND THE URGENCY? AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HOW DO WE CONVERT THE RELATIONSHIPS FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH FOR NEW ZEALANDERS SO THEY GET MONEY BACK IN THEIR POCKETS? HOW DO YOU SELL A TRADE DEAL, THOUGH, TO THOSE IN NEW ZEALAND WHO DON'T LIKE THE IDEA; WHO DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT THE SINGHS HAVE NOW OVERTAKEN THE SMITHS AS THE MOST POPULAR SURNAME IN NEW ZEALAND? WELL, I'D JUST SAY NEW ZEALAND'S A MUCH BETTER AND RICHER PLACE CULTURALLY, SOCIALLY, ECONOMICALLY, BECAUSE OF NEW NEW ZEALANDERS THAT HAVE EMBRACED NEW ZEALAND. WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE IMMIGRANT STORY TO NEW ZEALAND, IT'S PRETTY SPECIAL, AND I SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. AND WHETHER IT'S FILIPINOS, WHETHER IT'S INDIANS, WHETHER IT'S CHINESE, ANYONE` SOUTH AFRICANS, YOU KNOW, THEY COME TO NEW ZEALAND, THEY LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND ` OFTEN THEIR LANGUAGE, THEIR FRIENDS, THEIR FAMILY, THEIR CULTURE; THEY COME TO NEW ZEALAND, THEY WORK INCREDIBLY HARD. THEY TAKE ONE JOB, TWO JOBS, THREE JOBS TO GET A DEPOSIT FOR A BUSINESS OR A HOUSE. THEY'RE REALLY FOCUSED ON THEIR KIDS HAVING OPPORTUNITIES THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE. THEY SEE A FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES IN NEW ZEALAND` SURE. BUT DO YOU ACCEPT` AND AS NEW NEW ZEALANDERS, THEY ADD A LOT OF ENERGY INTO THE COUNTRY AS WELL. BUT DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND WHO DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF MORE INDIANS COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND? AND THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT THIS TRADE DEAL WILL LEAD TO. WELL, I'M NOT NECESSARILY SAYING THAT THAT` WE WANT TO HAVE GREATER CONNECTIVITY. A LOT OF THIS TRADE DEAL'S ABOUT ACTUALLY US SELLING MORE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES TO INDIA, AND US BEING ABLE TO COLLABORATE AND COOPERATE WITH THEM AS WELL. BUT I'D JUST SAY TO YOU, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, THE NEW ZEALAND I GREW UP IN VERSUS THE NEW ZEALAND TODAY IS A MUCH MORE DIVERSE, MUCH MORE INTERESTING, MUCH RICHER CULTURALLY, UM... AND IS A MUCH BETTER PLACE, I THINK, BECAUSE OF NEW NEW ZEALANDERS. AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU'VE BEEN HERE THREE MONTHS OR WHETHER YOU'VE BEEN HERE, YOU KNOW, 30 YEARS OR BORN AND RAISED HERE, ACTUALLY, WE'RE ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. AND WHEN THEY COME TO NEW ZEALAND, THEY WANT TO BE NEW ZEALANDERS. ARE THEY TREATED WELL IN NEW ZEALAND? I THINK THEY ARE. YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, THEY ALL UNDERSTAND AND ARE GRATEFUL TO BE IN NEW ZEALAND. THEY WANT TO BE PART OF NEW ZEALAND, THEY WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN BEING NEW ZEALAND` BUT THERE ARE INSTANCES, IF WE LOOK AT NEWS ITEMS AND SO ON, OF INCIDENCES OF VIOLENCE TOWARDS INDIANS WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES, OF RACISM. I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT A MINISTER OF YOUR OWN CABINET WHO'S MADE DISPARAGING REMARKS TOWARDS INDIAN STUDENTS AND TOWARDS INDIANS MIGRATING HERE FROM NEW DELHI. OH, LOOK, I THINK WHEN YOU SPEND TIME WITH THE INDIAN COMMUNITY AND YOU ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT, DESPITE ALL THE DIFFERENT REGIONS, THEY MAY HAVE COME FROM, ALL THE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, ETHNICITIES THEY MAY HAVE, AND NEW ZEALAND, IN OUR MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY, ACTUALLY, WE DON'T IMPORT IN OVERSEAS POLITICS, AND THEY'VE MADE A GREAT CONTRIBUTION TO NEW ZEALAND, BUT I` THAT'S LOCAL POLITICS. THAT'S SHANE JONES SAYING THAT. YEAH. WELL, IT MAY WELL BE` AS I SAID, I HAVEN'T SEEN HIS REMARKS, BUT ALL I'M JUST SAYING TO YOU IS THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I SENSE. I THINK NEW ZEALAND` NEW NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE MADE NEW ZEALAND A MUCH BETTER, RICHER PLACE AND WE'RE MUCH BETTER OFF FOR THAT DIVERSITY. JUST ON DAIRY ` IS A TRADE DEAL WITHOUT DAIRY WORTH IT FOR NEW ZEALAND? WELL, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE THROUGH THE MEDIA, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T KICKED OFF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS. WE KNOW THERE'LL BE SENSITIVITIES AROUND` DAIRY WILL BE ONE THAT'S NOW SENSITIVE BOTH` FOR BOTH COUNTRIES. YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT TO BOTH COUNTRIES. UH, IN INDIA, AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU'VE GOT 45% OF THE POPULATION GENERATING 15% OF THE REVENUE, BUT THEY'RE ALL SMALL, YOU KNOW, FARM HOLDERS. IN NEW ZEALAND, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S A VERY BIG SECTOR FOR US AND IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT SECTOR FOR US. BUT THE ANSWER IS NOT TO SAY, 'WELL, LET'S NOT TRY.' THE ANSWER IS NOT TO SAY, 'OH, IT'S JUST TOO HARD, 'LET'S GIVE UP BEFORE WE'VE EVEN STARTED.' AND SO WE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT UPFRONT WITH THE INDIAN COMMUNITY ` THAT'S IMPORTANT TO US, AND IN OUR NEGOTIATIONS, AND WE'LL GET INTO IT FROM THERE. DO YOU RISK GETTING OFFSIDE WITH FARMERS BACK HOME IF YOU DON'T GET DAIRY INTO A DEAL? WELL, I THINK EVERYBODY, EVEN IF YOU'VE SPOKEN TO FARMERS THAT ARE ON THIS TRIP WITH US FROM THE PRIMARY INDUSTRIES, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET THE VERY BEST DEAL FOR DAIRY AND FOR FARMERS IN GENERAL AND FOR NEW ZEALANDERS IN GENERAL. YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO GET THE VERY, VERY BEST DEAL WE CAN. WE WILL NEGOTIATE HARD. THEY WILL BE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS, I'M SURE, AS WE WOULD EXPECT, QUITE REASONABLY. BUT THE ANSWER HERE IS THAT WE NEED GROWTH IN NEW ZEALAND ` WHEN ONE IN FOUR OF OUR JOBS ARE TIED TO TRADE, AND WE DON'T PARTICIPATE IN WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY THE THIRD BIGGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD` OR WILL BE VERY SHORTLY, AND THE LARGEST POPULATION MARKET IN THE WORLD WITH A SIGNIFICANT GEOPOLITICAL PLAYER ` YOU KNOW, THAT'S` THAT'S LEADING NEW ZEALANDERS DOWN. YOU KNOW, THAT'S` THAT'S LETTING NEW ZEALANDERS DOWN. AND SO I THINK THE ATTITUDE THAT WE'VE GOT, WHICH IS, 'LET'S GET INTO IT' ` I KNOW IT'LL BE TOUGH, IT'LL BE DIFFICULT, BUT WE ARE GOING TO GET THE VERY, VERY BEST DEAL THAT WE POSSIBLY CAN FOR NEW ZEALAND AND FOR NEW ZEALAND'S FARMERS. YOU WERE THE CHIEF GUEST AND THE KEYNOTE SPEAKER AT THE RAISINA CONFERENCE` MM. ...INDIA'S BIGGEST CONFERENCE WHEN IT COMES TO SECURITY AND DEFENCE. DID YOU PICK UP WHAT INDIA'S POSITION IS ON AUKUS? IT WASN'T A TOPIC THAT CAME UP IN CONVERSATION IN ANY OF MY MEETINGS, BUT THE RAISINA DIALOGUE WAS A REALLY GREAT FORUM BECAUSE` IT'S A FASCINATING FORUM BECAUSE PEOPLE FROM 130 COUNTRIES COME; I THINK THERE WAS 35 FOREIGN MINISTERS IN THE ROOM, A NUMBER OF CURRENT AND FORMER HEADS OF GOVERNMENT. AND IT'S REALLY GREAT` A GREAT FORUM, BECAUSE, I MEAN, YOU GET TO DISCUSS PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF DIFFERENT VIEWS ON LOTS OF GEOPOLITICAL ISSUES. IT'S NOT A MONOLITHIC VIEW OF THE WORLD, AND ACTUALLY THAT DEBATE, THAT DISCUSSION IS REALLY IMPORTANT. SO THAT WAS A REAL PRIVILEGE ACTUALLY, TO BE ABLE TO TALK THERE, AND ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS. NEW ZEALAND AND INDIA'S VIEWS ON THE INDO-PACIFIC SEEM TO ALIGN, AND YOU'VE MENTIONED HOW YOU THINK NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO STEP UP ITS ROLE AND WHAT IT'S DOING IN THAT REGION. DO YOU THINK THAT NEW ZEALANDERS BACK HOME UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT STAKE IF WE DON'T? I THINK NEW ZEALANDERS ARE UNDERSTANDING IT. I THINK THE REALITY IS WE'VE FELT LIKE WE'VE GROWN UP IN A VERY BENIGN ENVIRONMENT. AND I THINK EVEN THE EVENTS OF THE LAST YEAR, CERTAINLY THE EVENTS OF THE LAST FIVE YEARS, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE SENSED THAT WE'RE IN A COMPETITIVE GEOSTRATEGIC` YOU KNOW, THERE'S GEOSTRATEGIC COMPETITION IN THE PACIFIC NOW, WHICH PREVIOUSLY THERE WASN'T. PEOPLE WILL POINT TO, YOU KNOW, THE CHINESE SHIPS COMING THROUGH THE TASMAN AND CIRCUMNAVIGATING AUSTRALIA FOR THE FIRST TIME; AN ICBM TEST, YOU KNOW, HAPPENING JUST OFF THE COAST OF TAHITI. AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, THE` YOU KNOW, THE DIFFERENCES AND THE DISCUSSION WE'RE GOING TO HAVE WITH THE COOK ISLANDS AS WELL. SO PEOPLE KIND OF GET THAT, RIGHT? I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS A BIGGER ONE, WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT PROSPERITY, IN 2025, IT COMES WITH SECURITY, AND YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER. WE'VE SEEN THAT WITH THE UKRAINE CRISIS, YOU KNOW ` A CONFLICT BECAUSE OF INSTABILITY AND A LACK OF DEFENCE AND SECURITY MEANS THAT YOU END UP WITH HIGH ENERGY PRICES, HIGH GRAIN PRICES, HIGH RICE PRICES, IMPACTING MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD AND CAUSING ECONOMIC PAIN AND SUFFERING. SO THE TWO ARE INTERDEPENDENT, AND YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. AND NEW ZEALAND HAS A LOT TO OFFER THE WORLD. WE MAY BE A SMALL COUNTRY, WE MAY HAVE LIMITED RESOURCES, WE MAY BE A LONG WAY AWAY SOMETIMES FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS, BUT WE HAVE VALUES THAT WE STRONGLY, STRONGLY BELIEVE IN. AND YOU CAN'T JUST TALK THE WORDS ` YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO BACK IT UP, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST AND PLAY YOUR PART. AND THAT'S WHY I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ACTIONS FOLLOW THE WORDS. JUST ON KHALISTAN, DID PRIME MINISTER MODI'S COMMENTS UNDERSTOOD TO BE REFERRING TO SIKH SEPARATISTS OPERATING IN NEW ZEALAND ` DID THAT TAKE YOU BY SURPRISE? NO. HE SHARED WITH ME A BROAD ASSESSMENT FROM THE INDIAN PERSPECTIVE ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW AS A GLOBAL RISK AROUND THAT WITH RESPECT TO TERRORISM. I LISTENED TO THAT. I ALSO SAID, AS I SAID PRIVATELY TO HIM, AND ALSO PUBLICLY TO MEDIA AS WELL, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I` WE HAVE A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY IN NEW ZEALAND. PEOPLE NEED TO BE COMPLIANT WITH OUR LAWS IN NEW ZEALAND, AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A POLICE FORCE THAT DOES AN EXCELLENT JOB OF ENFORCING THEM. WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO FREE SPEECH ` IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. PEOPLE HAVE A COMPLETE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH AND TO PROTEST. THEY NEED TO DO SO LAWFULLY, AND WHEN THEY DON'T, OUR POLICE ENFORCE THAT. BUT THE BIGGER POINT, I THINK, AROUND THAT ISSUE IN PARTICULAR, AS I MADE THE POINT TO HIM AS WELL, WAS THAT IN NEW ZEALAND'S MULTICULTURAL ENVIRONMENT, WHAT WE DON'T SEE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU OBSERVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IS A WHOLESALE IMPORT OF OVERSEAS POLITICS INTO OUR DOMESTIC POLITICS, INTO NEW ZEALAND. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY? BECAUSE IN AOTEA SQUARE, WHERE THEY DID PROTEST, THEY CHANTED 'KILL MODI'. IS THAT FREE SPEECH? WELL, AGAIN, WE HAVE LAWS, AND OUR POLICE ARE ENTRUSTED TO ACTUALLY ENFORCE THE LAWS TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S` IS THAT FREE SPEECH? YES. I HEAR YOU, BUT WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS, WE HAVE FREE SPEECH; OUR POLICE ACTUALLY ARE MAKING SURE THAT EVERYTHING IS LAWFUL AND THAT THE LAW IS ENFORCED. BUT THE BIGGER POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT WHEN YOU COME TO NEW ZEALAND, WHAT YOU DON'T SEE ACROSS NEW ZEALAND IS A WHOLESALE IMPORT OF ALL THE DIVISIONS THAT OFTEN EXIST IN COUNTRIES OVERSEAS. SURE ` BUT TO CHANT THOSE WORDS, 'KILL MODI' ` DO YOU THINK THAT IS ACCEPTABLE? AGAIN, WE HAVE FREE SPEECH, AND PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO PROTEST. AS LONG AS THEY DO IT LAWFULLY, THAT'S FINE IN NEW ZEALAND. AS TO WHAT` WHAT ACTION CAN BE TAKEN ON THAT? WELL, AGAIN, OUR POLICE ENFORCE OUR LAWS, AS YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S IMPORTANT THAT OUR LAWS ARE UPHELD IN OUR COUNTRY. BUT ESSENTIALLY, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT OUR LAWS ALLOW FOR COMMENTS LIKE THAT. WELL, OUR` WE HAVE FREE SPEECH AND PROTESTS, AS YOU KNOW ` THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF ANY LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. IF YOU START TO SHUT ALL OF THAT DOWN, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ATTACKING ONE OF THE KEY TENETS OF DEMOCRACY. SOME WILL ARGUE THERE'S FREE SPEECH, AND THEN THERE'S HATE SPEECH. DOES THIS ERR INTO THAT REALM? WELL, AGAIN, I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO THE SPECIFICS OF THE CASE. WHAT I CAN SAY TO YOU VERY CLEARLY IS WHAT I SAID TO PRIME MINISTER MODI ` 'THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT ASSESSMENT OF HOW YOU SEE THAT` 'YOU KNOW, THAT RISK.' FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, WE ARE A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. WE HAVE FREE SPEECH. WE HAVE PROTESTS. YOU'RE ENTITLED TO EXPLAIN IT AS LONG AS IT'S DONE LAWFULLY. AND OUR POLICE, WHO WE TRUST COMPLETELY TO ENFORCE THOSE LAWS, DO SO. WHERE DO YOU PERSONALLY DRAW THE LINE ON FREE SPEECH? YOU PERSONALLY. WELL, AGAIN, I MEAN, WE'VE GOT QUITE ESTABLISHED POSITIONS ON THAT. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME AND ACTUALLY EXPRESS DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT` BUT IT SHOULD BE COMPLETELY LAWFUL, AND SO OUR LAWS NEED TO BE UPHELD. OUR POLICE DO THAT JOB VERY WELL. ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT ` BECAUSE, OF COURSE, PRIME MINISTER MODI SAID HE LOOKED FORWARD TO THE GOVERNMENT'S SUPPORT IN TAKING ACTION ON INSTANCES LIKE THAT ` ON THE FLIP SIDE, THEN, CAN YOU PROMISE THE SIKH COMMUNITY IN NEW ZEALAND THAT IF THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT CHARGES THEM WITH A CRIME LIKE TERRORISM, OR SECESSIONIST ACTIVITY, THAT THEY WON'T BE EXTRADITED BACK TO INDIA? WELL, AGAIN, YEAH, WE HAVE A LEGAL FRAMEWORK FOR DEALING WITH THESE SORTS OF ISSUES, RIGHT? SO IT'S VERY CLEAR ` IF YOU'RE IN NEW ZEALAND AND YOU'RE A NEW ZEALANDER OPERATING WITHIN OUR LIBERAL DEMOCRACY OF NEW ZEALAND, WE EXPECT YOU TO BE COMPLIANT WITH OUR LAWS AND OUR RULES. AND YOU'RE SAYING ` AND WHAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE` WHAT I'M NOT HAVING IS FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN NEW ZEALAND. YOU'VE SUGGESTED THAT THOSE COMMENTS ARE COMPLIANT WITH OUR LAW, SO CAN YOU GIVE THEM AN UNDERTAKING THAT YOU WOULDN'T EXTRADITE THEM? WELL, NO, THAT'S A` WELL, NO, BUT THERE'S A RISK. YOU'RE` THAT'S A VERY SWEEPING GENERALISATION YOU'RE MAKING THERE, AND THAT'S A SPECULATIVE` MAKE IT CLEARER. MAKE IT CLEARER FOR ME. YEAH, IT MIGHT BE SPECULATIVE ABOUT WHAT THE ACTUAL... I DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE ON WHAT AN INDIVIDUAL DOES OR DOESN'T, AND HOW THAT MAY CONTRAVENE OUR LAWS. ALL I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY, AT A PRINCIPLED LEVEL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE VERY PROUD OF OUR DEMOCRACY. PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXERCISE FREE SPEECH AND PROTEST. WE DO EXPECT THEM TO DO THAT LAWFULLY. WHERE THEY DON'T, WE LET OUR POLICE ENFORCE THAT, AND WE TRUST OUR POLICE TO DO THAT. BUT THE BIGGER POINT I'M ALSO TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT ACTUALLY, WITHIN OUR MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY OF NEW ZEALAND, WE ACTUALLY HAVE QUITE A LOT OF HARMONIOUS INTERACTIONS WITHIN GROUPS AND BETWEEN DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES, DIFFERENT` DIFFERENT, UM... DIFFERENT GROUPINGS, DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS FAITHS. AND I'VE SEEN THAT UP AND DOWN NEW ZEALAND. NOW, I DON'T WANT TO SEE IMPORTED POLITICAL DIVISION FROM OVERSEAS INTO NEW ZEALAND. AND WHEN I LOOK AT` IS THAT WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH THE SIKH GROUPS HERE IN NEW ZEALAND? WELL, IF I JUST TAKE THE INDIAN COMMUNITY ` IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE HINDU-SIKH MIX, THE REGIONAL MIX, WHAT YOU SEE IS A REALLY` A GREAT COMMUNITY THAT ACTUALLY SELF-REGULATES ACTUALLY VERY WELL ANY POTENTIAL DIVISIONS. WHEN I LOOK AT, ACTUALLY, THE WORK OF, UM... YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT` I'VE MET RECENTLY WITH THE JEWISH COUNCIL AND WE'RE DEALING WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AND WE'RE DEALING WITH ISLAMOPHOBIA. ACTUALLY, THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THOSE TWO GROUPS AND HOW THEY ACTUALLY ENGAGE WITH EACH OTHER IS ACTUALLY QUITE SPECIAL, QUITE UNIQUE ` YOU WOULDN'T SEE THAT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN NEW NEW ZEALANDERS COME TO NEW ZEALAND, THEY WANT TO BE NEW ZEALANDERS, AND THAT MEANS HOLDING TO THE VALUES OF OUR SOCIETY. AND THAT MAY BE VERY DIFFERENT FROM HOW OTHER COUNTRIES OPERATE, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT ` WE WANT TO KEEP UPHOLDING THAT. PRIME MINISTER CHRISTOPHER LUXON. AFTER THE BREAK ` THEY'RE SUPPOSEDLY THE WORST OF THE WORST ` THE MOST DANGEROUS OF THE MOST DANGEROUS, SO WHY SHOULD KIWIS CARE ABOUT THE LIVING CONDITIONS FOR OUR HIGHEST-RISK PRISONERS? WHETHER ITS INSPECTING PRISONS, OVERSEEING ORANGA TAMARIKI, OR RESOLVING DISPUTES WITH THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT, FAIRNESS IS A GUIDING LIGHT OF SORTS FOR NEW ZEALAND'S OMBUDSMAN. PETER BOSHIER IS FINISHING UP AS CHIEF OMBUDSMAN AFTER 10 YEARS AND THE BEST PART OF TWO TERMS IN WHAT IS A UNIQUE ROLE. I BEGAN BY ASKING ABOUT THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT. WELL, THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT'S A REALLY GOOD ACT, AND IT'S STILL STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. SO I DON'T THINK MUCH LEGISLATION IS NEEDED IN RELATION TO THE ACT, BUT THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT BOTHER ME, PARTICULARLY AT THE MOMENT. ONE IS, AGENCIES ARE OFTEN TOO SLOW IN RELEASING INFORMATION ` MANY ARE TOO PROTECTIVE, TOO CUMBERSOME ` SO I THINK AGENCIES HAVE GOT A JOB TO DO TO LIFT THEIR GAME. THIS IS AN ACT THAT'S MEANT TO GIVE NEW ZEALANDERS THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY, AND FOR DECISION-MAKERS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE. THINGS THESE DAYS HAPPEN QUICKLY, AND THE O.I.A. IS BEING COMPLIED WITH TOO SLOWLY ` THAT'S THE FIRST THING. THE SECOND IS SOME REQUESTERS ` THEIR REQUEST'S TOO VOLUMINOUS, NOT REALLY MADE IN THE SPIRIT OF THE ACT, AND IT'S SLOWING THINGS DOWN, AND I THINK COMPROMISE AND GOOD COMPLIANCE AS WELL. SO ON BOTH SIDES, I THINK THINGS NEED TO CHANGE. BUT YOU'RE NOT SUGGESTING LEGISLATIVE CHANGES OR LEGISLATIVE REFORMS ` YOU'RE SUGGESTING, KIND OF, CULTURAL CHANGES OR THE APPLICATION OF THE ACT. I'M SUGGESTING JUST THAT. HOWEVER, ONE THING I WANT TO THROW ON TO THE TABLE IS WHETHER OR NOT THE PENALTIES FOR NON-COMPLIANCE OUGHT TO BE BEEFED UP. RECENTLY, AS YOU MAY KNOW, THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE PORTS OF AUCKLAND WAS MADE RESPONSIBLE FOR THINGS THAT HAPPENED UNDER HIS WATCH ` PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE. MM. AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER A HIGHLY-PAID CHIEF EXECUTIVE OUGHT NOT TO BE MORE ACCOUNTABLE, FINANCIALLY AND OTHERWISE, WHEN THAT CHIEF EXECUTIVE'S AGENCY IS BREACHING THE LAW. SO WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING AT THE MOMENT ARE POTENTIAL LEGAL IMPLICATIONS RELATING TO HEALTH AND SAFETY, RIGHT? RELATING TO HEALTH AND SAFETY, RIGHT, IN THE CASE OF PORT OF AUCKLAND, BUT YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT A CHIEF EXECUTIVE COULD BE HELD PERSONALLY FINANCIALLY LIABLE IF THEIR AGENCY DIDN'T COMPLY WITH THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT AS THEY SHOULD? YEAH, I'M PUTTING IT OUT THERE BECAUSE SOMETHING'S GOT TO CHANGE. AND LOOK, SOME AGENCIES SUCH AS TREASURY, SUCH AS THE DEPARTMENT OF PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET ARE DOING REALLY GOOD WORK. BUT OTHERS ` AND I'M OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THIS ` HEALTH NEW ZEALAND IS A DISGRACE. WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HEALTH ISSUES. IT'S THE ONE THING THAT NEW ZEALANDERS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT AND HAVE GOT THE RIGHT TO KNOW ABOUT. TRYING TO GET OFFICIAL INFORMATION OUT OF HEALTH NEW ZEALAND HAS BEEN A NIGHTMARE. TWO THINGS ` BREACHES OF THE LAW, WHICH... I REALLY CAN'T JUST LOOK THE OTHER WAY, I'VE GOT TO TALK ABOUT` MM. IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. AND OTHER TIMES WHEN THERE IS A RECOMMENDATION TO RELEASE AND THEY SAY THEY WILL ` ON OCCASIONS THEY HAVEN'T. JUST FIND THAT REALLY DISCOURTEOUS. IS THAT A CULTURAL PROBLEM OR A BUREAUCRATIC PROBLEM? WHAT DO YOU PUT IT DOWN TO WITHIN HEALTH NEW ZEALAND? WELL, I THINK IT'S BOTH. I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT GOOD LEADERSHIP AT THE TOP IS EVERYTHING, AND THAT'S WHY I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE AND THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT GOES WITH THE MANA OF THE JOB. MM. SO THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING FOR HEALTH NEW ZEALAND'S LEADERS ` WHEN WE HAVE THEM ESTABLISHED ` TO CONSIDER GOING FORWARD. I THINK SO. I THINK SO. YOU SAID THAT SOME AGENCIES ARE TOO PROTECTIVE. DO YOU THINK AGENCIES HAVE A CULTURE WHEREBY THEY FORGET WHO THEY WORK FOR, SOMETIMES? I THINK THAT SOMETIMES, AGENCIES, PARTICULARLY WHERE A MINISTER IS VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS AND WANTING TO BE CAUTIOUS, I THINK IT MAY BE THAT AGENCIES JUST FORGET WHO'S GOT THE DECISION AND WHO SHOULD BE CALLING THE SHOTS. NOW, IT HAPPENED SOME TIME AGO ` THERE WAS A CASE INVOLVING KIWIRAIL, AND MINISTERIAL POLITICAL ADVISERS SLOWED DOWN THE PROCESS AND REALLY OBSTRUCTED IT. SO I'M SAYING THAT I THINK CHIEF EXECUTIVES AND AGENCIES NEED TO BE AWARE THAT IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY, AND THAT TO BE PROTECTIVE ISN'T WHAT THE JOB'S ABOUT. MM. WHAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE FINE FOR A CHIEF EXECUTIVE, DO YOU THINK? WELL, SEE, I THINK` I'M JUST WANTING TO PROVOKE THIS AS A DISCUSSION. I THINK THAT IS A MATTER FOR PARLIAMENT. IT'S A MATTER FOR POLITICIANS. IT'S A MATTER FOR MEDIA, WHO HAVE EVERY INTEREST IN TRYING TO GET INFORMATION, OFTEN QUITE RIGHTLY, AS A STORY'S EVOLVING. SO IT'S GOT TO BE MEANINGFUL. WHATEVER WE DO, IT'S GOT TO HAVE A BITE TO IT. WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING THE AGENCY, AND` OR THE RESPONDERS' SIDE OF THINGS, BUT YOU SAID THERE'S ALSO A RESPONSIBILITY FOR PEOPLE SUBMITTING REQUESTS UNDER THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT ` PERHAPS CONSIDER THE NATURE OF THOSE REQUESTS. HAVE YOU NOTICED A CHANGE SINCE COVID? I HAVE. AND SINCE THE BIG PROTEST IN PARLIAMENT ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, SOME REQUESTERS ARE JUST UNREASONABLE, AND SEEM TO BE ON A MISSION, AND WON'T ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT I SAY THAT THE INFORMATION ISN'T HELD OR ISN'T AVAILABLE. THEY FERVENTLY BELIEVE THAT EITHER IT IS, OR THAT WE'RE STILL` WE'RE PART OF THE CONSPIRACY. I DIDN'T SEE THAT WHEN I STARTED THIS JOB. WHAT WILL CHANGE THAT? (INHALES) I'M NOT SURE I HAVE A READY ANSWER TO THAT. I JUST THINK THAT WHAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IS SPEEDILY RELEASE INFORMATION. BUT THE OMBUDSMAN'S PRETTY GOOD, PRETTY STOIC, AND REASONABLY TIMELY. I THINK IF WE JUST DO OUR JOB AND DO IT VERY CONSCIENTIOUSLY, I CAN'T ASK FOR MORE THAN THAT. MM. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT PRISONS. YES. ONE OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES IS THE OVERSIGHT YOU PROVIDE TO CONDITIONS AND STANDARDS IN NEW ZEALAND PRISONS. WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT PRISONS AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IN NEW ZEALAND DURING YOUR TIME AS OMBUDSMAN THAT YOU PERHAPS HADN'T PREVIOUSLY APPRECIATED AS A JUDGE? WELL, JUDGES DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT GOES ON INSIDE PRISONS, SO JUDGES` AND I WAS ONE, AND I SENT PEOPLE TO PRISON, AND THE JOB IS, THE PERSON NEEDS TO BE REMANDED IN CUSTODY, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS ` AWAY THEY GO. WE SEE THE OTHER SIDE. NOW, AS WELL AS MY INSPECTORS GOING INTO PRISONS, I HAVE AS WELL. WHAT HAVE I SEEN? VERY HIGH REMAND POPULATION. AND THAT'S A WORRY, BECAUSE EITHER THESE PEOPLE MIGHT GET OFF EVENTUALLY AT TRIAL, OR THEY DON'T GET THE REHABILITATION THAT SENTENCED PRISONERS ARE ENTITLED TO. NOW, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A REMAND POPULATION OF ABOUT 50%, IT'S PRETTY GRIM. AND LOOK, I'VE BEEN WORRIED AND I HAVE BEEN OUTSPOKEN ABOUT IT BECAUSE I FELT I HAD TO BE. DURING COVID, I COULD ACCEPT THAT PRISONER RIGHTS SHOULD BE COMPROMISED ` IN THE CELL 23 HOURS A DAY ` WELL, WE DIDN'T WANT COVID SPREAD AND PRISON STAFF WERE OFTEN AWAY. CORRECTIONS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY SLOW TO CHANGE SINCE COVID, AND I'VE BEEN REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE EROSION OF THE RIGHTS PRISONERS HAVE. IT'S NOT A MATTER OF WHETHER I WANT THEM TO HAVE THEM OR NOT ` THEY ARE THERE. I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORRECTIONS IS GLACIAL IN THE WAY IT EMBRACES CHANGE. GLACIAL? HMM. HOW SO? SOME AGENCIES EMBRACE CHANGE. IT'S ALMOST LIKE I SAY, 'DON'T YOU THINK YOU OUGHT TO CHANGE IN THIS RESPECT?' AND THEY LOOK AT THE MIRROR, AND SAY, 'THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. WE'LL DO IT.' AND THEY DO. CORRECTIONS WILL SAY, 'WE ACCEPT YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS,' BUT DEEP DOWN, I DON'T THINK THEY DO. THEY DON'T. WHY NOT? PROBABLY CULTURE. IT'S` IT'S THE WAY` WHEN WE DID A VERY, VERY BIG REPORT ON PRISONS ` IT'S CALLED 'MAKING A DIFFERENCE: KIA WHAITAKI' ` AND WE FOUND THAT THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AND THE WAY PRISONS ARE ORGANISED DOESN'T DO MUCH TO PROMOTE CHANGE IN INDIVIDUAL PRISONS. IT'S JUST THE WAY THAT... FAIRLY DINOSAURIAN AGENCY IS MANAGED. DO YOU THINK` AND I'M JUST SPITBALLING HERE ` THAT THAT PERHAPS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT ACTUALLY A LOT OF NEW ZEALANDERS DON'T CARE MUCH ABOUT CORRECTIONS COS THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT PRISONS? YES. YOU'RE RIGHT. AND THAT'S` THAT'S... I ABSOLUTELY ACCEPT THAT. SO WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU NOW ISN'T NECESSARILY A POPULAR PART OF THE JOB` MM. ...BUT PRISONS` WE ARE PART OF A CONVENTION, THE CRIMES AGAINST TORTURE CONVENTION. THERE ARE STANDARD RIGHTS. AND LOOK, I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN A BIT AFFECTED BY GOING IN TO THE AUCKLAND MAXIMUM PRISON AND FINDING THE SIZE OF THE CELL AND THE SO-CALLED 'EXERCISE CELL' ADJOINING IT. AND IN ONE CASE, A PRISONER SAID TO ME THAT HE WAS THERE ALL THE TIME, AND HE HAD DONE A HALF-MARATHON. AND I SAID, 'HOW SO?' MM. HE HAD RUN FROM ONE END OF THE CELL TO THE OTHER FOR HOWEVER MANY HOURS IT TAKES, AND I THOUGHT, 'IS THAT` IS THAT WHAT WE'VE DESCENDED TO?' YOU RELEASED A REPORT INTO CONDITIONS AT PRISON LAST YEAR, IN THE EXTREME RISK UNIT AT THE PRISON THAT USED TO BE KNOWN AS PAREMOREMO, AND SO THAT UNIT CONTAINS SOME OF NEW ZEALAND'S WORST CRIMINALS, OR MOST DANGEROUS CRIMINALS. THERE WERE 13 MEN HOUSED IN THERE AT THE TIME, INCLUDING THE CHRISTCHURCH TERRORIST, AND YOU DESCRIBED THE CONDITIONS AS CRUEL, DEGRADING, AND INHUMAN. BUT WHY SHOULD NEW ZEALANDERS CARE ABOUT THE CONDITIONS FOR OUR MOST DANGEROUS PRISONERS? WELL, THERE ARE TWO REASONS ` MOST WILL GET OUT. THERE ARE ONE OR TWO, OF COURSE, THAT MAY NOT, OR WILL TAKE AN AWFULLY LONG TIME, BUT MOST WILL IN THE END BE RELEASED. NOW, JACK, A LOT OF PRISONERS REOFFEND VIOLENTLY UPON RELEASE, SO IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO OFFER REHABILITATION, THERE IS A CONSEQUENCE TO THAT. THE OTHER THING IS, WE ARE A CIVILISED SOCIETY. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL MEMBERS OF OUR SOCIETY. WE DON'T HAVE DEATH ROW FOR PRISONERS WHO COMMIT MURDER. WE HAVE DECIDED THAT WE DON'T SUBJECT THEM TO THE DEATH PENALTY. IF WE'RE GOING TO IMPRISON THEM, WE'VE GOT TO DO IT IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL REQUIREMENTS, AND WE DON'T ALWAYS DO THAT. SO DOES REHAB MATTER FOR SOMEONE LIKE THE CHRISTCHURCH TERRORIST? WELL, THE CHRISTCHURCH TERRORIST, IT PROBABLY DOESN'T, BECAUSE AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THERE'S NO PAROLE. MM. I MEAN, HE'S A SINGULAR CASE, AND WE'VE REALLY GOT TO CARVE HIM OUT, BECAUSE HE IS SINGULAR. MM. FOR MOST OTHERS IN THAT PERU UNIT ` THAT PRISONERS OF EXTREME RISK UNIT ` SOONER OR LATER, THEY WILL BE IN THE COMMUNITY, WALKING DOWN THE STREET WITH YOU AND ME. MM. AND IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT, AT LEAST BY MY UNDERSTANDING, A COUPLE OF THE PRISONERS WHO HAVE BEEN HOUSED THERE ARE HOUSED THERE FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION, AND ARE ISOLATED FROM OTHER PRISONERS FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION, RATHER THAN NECESSARILY PRESENTING THE SAME LEVEL OF RISK THAT PERHAPS SOME OF THOSE OTHER PERU PRISONERS DO. SURE. YOU SAID IT AFFECTS YOU WHEN YOU WHEN YOU GO INTO A PLACE LIKE THAT. TELL ME ABOUT THAT. WHAT'S IT LIKE GOING TO... GOING INTO THAT SORT OF ENVIRONMENT? DO YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF BEING IMPRISONED THERE? NO. DO YOU KNOW WHAT MATTERS TO ME, AND I THINK WILL MATTER TO PEOPLE? IT'S THE SOUND OF BIRDS. IT'S THE SMELL OF GRASS, IT'S SEEING THE FLOWERS AND THE BULBS EVOLVE IN THE COURSE OF THE YEAR, AND THE BLUE SKY, AND THEN THE CLOUDS THAT COME IN ` THERE'S NONE OF THAT. YOU ARE IN THIS STARK, STARK WAY, AND LIFE JUST BECOMES PURELY, UH... TRANSITIONAL` OR TRANSITIONAL` TRANSACTIONAL IS A BETTER WORD. WHEN I WAS ONCE IN AUCKLAND PRISON AND THEY WERE HAVING STAFFING PROBLEMS THERE, THEIR MEAL TIME WAS 3, 3PM. YEAH. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE REST OF THE TIME? AND I` I` I HAVE TO SAY, I CAN'T ACCEPT THAT. I CAN'T ACCEPT THAT THAT'S THE WAY THAT PRISONS SHOULD BE RUNNING. YOU SAID THAT CORRECTIONS HAS BEEN GLACIAL. DO YOU THINK THE OMBUDSMAN NEEDS MORE TEETH? WELL, MOST OF THE TIME` MOST OF THE TIME, ACROSS THE WIDE RANGE OF WORK WE DO, AND LET'S JUST ACCEPT THAT CORRECTIONS IS A PART OF IT ` AGENCIES ARE REALLY GOOD AT ACCEPTING OUR RECOMMENDATIONS. WE'RE REGARDED AS HAVING MORAL AUTHORITY, AND ONE THING I'VE BEEN PLEASED ABOUT IN THE JOB IS JUST THAT. I LEAVE IT ON THE BASIS THAT I'M PLEASED THAT NEW ZEALANDERS SEEM TO RESPECT THE OMBUDSMAN, THINK THAT WE ARE REALLY, REALLY NECESSARY, AND IF WE MAKE A RECOMMENDATION, WE HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY TO DO SO AND THEY'LL ACCEPT IT. MM-HM. CORRECTIONS FINDS IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT. MM-HM. OVER AND AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN YOU AND OTHERS CALL FOR TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE AT ORANGA TAMARIKI. IN YOUR VIEW, HOW HAS THE AGENCY CHANGED, AND WHAT HASN'T CHANGED, BUT NEEDS TO? IT'S A TROUBLED AGENCY. I KNEW WHEN I WAS A JUDGE, AND IT WAS THEN CALLED CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES ` THERE WERE TIMES WHEN WE WERE LET DOWN, SO I KNEW AS A PRACTISING JUDGE, AND SOCIAL WORKERS WERE BEFORE ME AND THINGS DIDN'T GET DONE. I KNEW THAT IT WAS FAR FROM PERFECT. IN THIS JOB, WHAT'S HAPPENED IS THAT PARLIAMENT DECIDED TO GIVE THE OMBUDSMAN GREATER OVERSIGHT AND MUCH MORE TEETH, AND FURTHERMORE, TO SPREAD THE NET OF WHO WE COULD LOOK AT. TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WE'VE FOUND THAT A NOTIFICATION IS MADE OF ABUSE. THE FOLLOW-UP IS AWFUL. THE RECORDING OF IT IS NOT GOOD. LOOK, LIKE ANY AGENCY, THERE ARE GOOD PARTS TO THIS. BUT IF YOU'RE SAYING TO ME, CAN I BE CONFIDENT THAT WE NOW HAVE A REALLY FUNCTIONAL AGENCY? I CAN'T. I CANNOT WITH HAND ON HEART TO SAY THAT. MAORI ARE MASSIVELY OVERREPRESENTED IN THE TAMARIKI WHO ARE REPORTED TO OT. IN THE TAMARIKI WHO ARE REPORTED TO O.T. THEY'RE MASSIVELY OVERREPRESENTED IN OUR PRISON POPULATION AS WELL. WHY? I DON'T KNOW THAT WE` AND LET'S GET BACK TO PRISONS, WHICH YOU WERE ASKING ME ABOUT BEFORE. PERSONALLY, I THINK THAT SO MUCH CAN HANG ON CULTURE AND SO MUCH CAN HANG ON WHAT MATTERS IN LIFE AND WHAT YOU COULD ASPIRE TO. IF NONE OF THOSE THINGS EXIST, THEN LIFE DOESN'T HAVE MUCH APART FROM GANG AFFILIATIONS AND EXERCISING POWER AND OTHER THINGS IN THAT WAY. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PURPOSE. I AM. AND I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE ` AND WE'VE DONE A LOT OF THIS IN OUR OFFICE ` I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE THAT MAORI CULTURE TIKANGA IS AT THE HEART OF WHAT COULD CHANGE THINGS A LOT. SO I THINK WE FOUND WITH BABY UPLIFTS IN HAWKE'S BAY, WHERE ORANGA TAMARIKI WAS LEAVING THINGS PRETTY MUCH TILL THE LAST MOMENT, APPLYING TO THE FAMILY COURT. I GUESS I USED TO DO THIS ` ON A FRIDAY, WE'D MAKE AN ORDER FOR UPLIFT, AND THEY HADN'T REALLY SEARCHED FOR WHANAU WHO MIGHT BE AVAILABLE TO LOOK AFTER THIS BABY, SO WE MADE ORDERS FOR UPLIFT. IT REALLY DIDN'T PAY RESPECT AT ALL TO WHANAU, HAPU, AND IWI THAT THE ACT ACTUALLY REQUIRES. DO YOU THINK WE'LL EVER SEE A DAY WHERE THE PERCENTAGE OF MAORI IN PRISONS AND IN ORANGA TAMARIKI CARE WILL BE COMPARABLE TO THE GENERAL POPULATION? I AM EVER THE OPTIMIST, AND I MEAN THAT. I HAVE NEVER ONCE IN THIS JOB STOPPED BELIEVING THAT WE CAN BE BETTER, AND I THINK THE REASON THAT I'VE LIKED THE JOB IS YOU CAN MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO TRY AND ACHIEVE THAT. I HOPE WE ARE ADDING TO THAT NOTE OF OPTIMISM. THERE'S ONE OTHER OVERSIGHT FUNCTION I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT. YOU HAVE OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY FOR AGED CARE FACILITIES. DO NEW ZEALANDERS TREAT OLDER PEOPLE WELL? THEY PRETTY MUCH DO. SO, DURING COVID, THAT PUTS` THAT'S WORTH TALKING ABOUT, BY THE WAY ` WHAT WERE WE GOING TO DO IN COVID WHEN WE DIDN'T WANT TO INTRODUCE HARM INTO AGED CARE FACILITIES AND PRISONS AND MENTAL HEALTH UNITS? WERE WE TO INSIST THAT WE GO IN, OR WOULD WE FLAG IT? AND WE DECIDED IN THE END THAT IF WE COULDN'T GO IN, WHO COULD? WHO WOULD KNOW WHETHER YOUR ELDERLY AUNT OR PARENT WAS BEING WELL LOOKED AFTER AND INHUMANELY LOOKED AFTER? WAS BEING WELL LOOKED AFTER AND HUMANELY LOOKED AFTER? IN THE LARGE AGED CARE REPORT WE RELEASED LAST WEEK, WE SAID A COUPLE OF THINGS. GENERALLY SPEAKING, THERE ARE ` JUST QUICKLY, IF I CAN SAY ` 70,000 PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND LIVE WITH DEMENTIA. 6500 ARE IN SECURE CARE BECAUSE OF THEIR DEMENTIA. WE HAVE 266 FACILITIES IN NEW ZEALAND ` SO IT'S BIG. AND OF THOSE IN SECURE DEMENTIA CARE, WE FOUND THE STAFF ARE CONSCIENTIOUS. THEY REALLY TRY TO TREAT THOSE PEOPLE WITH DIGNITY, BUT OFTEN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH STAFF AND NIBBLING AROUND THE EDGES OF CONCERNS TO US ` TOO MUCH USE OF RESTRAINT. YOU TALKED BEFORE ABOUT WHAT MATTERS IN LIFE. A NUMBER OF AGED CARE FACILITIES HAVE COURTYARDS WHERE THERE IS LIGHT AND THERE ARE GARDENS, BUT THE DOORS ARE LOCKED AND THEY CAN'T GET OUT INTO THEM. SO WHAT WE'VE TRIED TO DO IN THAT PART OF OUR WORK IS TO SUPPORT, TO THANK THE HARD WORK THAT'S BEEN DONE, BUT TO SAY, 'LOOK, THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE'D LIKE YOU TO DO BETTER.' WHEN YOU REFLECT ACROSS YOUR CAREER, IT'S CLEAR YOU HAVE A REAL PERSONAL AFFINITY FOR THE PACIFIC. WHAT DRIVES THAT? WELL, IT'S A NUMBER OF THINGS RELATED TO THEIR JOY OF LIFE, THEIR CULTURE. IT'S THE FACT THAT THEY ARE SO ENTRENCHED IN SONG, THEIR DANCE. I'VE ALWAYS FOUND THAT` AND THEIR COURTESY AND THEIR DEFERENCE TO THINGS THAT ARE NON-MATERIAL. I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S ATTRACTED ME. I FOUND IT, IN ALL OF THE TIME THAT I'VE DONE, TO BE A CULTURE THAT'S VERY MUCH SIMILAR TO MAORI, BUT PERSONALLY, I FOUND IT ALLURING. YEAH, THAT'S SPECIAL. AND I KNOW YOU'VE HAD A WHOLE RANGE OF SPECIAL EXPERIENCES AND TIME IN DIFFERENT PACIFIC COUNTRIES. THERE WAS ONE EXPERIENCE I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, THOUGH ` A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE YOU EXPERIENCED. IN 2002, YOU WERE THE VICTIM OF A TERRIBLE CRIME IN SUVA. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT? WHAT HAPPENED, AND HOW DID IT CHANGE YOUR OUTLOOK? WELL, IT WAS LIFE-CHANGING. SO, I'D BEEN SECONDED BY THE GOVERNMENT TO DO JUDICIAL TRAINING, AND WE WERE BASED IN SUVA. AND IN PARTS OF SUVA, YOU HAVE BARBED WIRE BECAUSE IT'S... SUBJECT TO CRIME. WE'D LEFT A GATE OPEN. WE'RE EXPECTING SOMEONE TO COME. INSTEAD, TWO PEOPLE TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME IN AND HOLD US UP AT KNIFEPOINT. SO WE WERE COMPLETELY ROBBED OF THINGS THAT MATTERED. BUT TOWARDS THE END, THEY TOOK US INTO THE KITCHEN, HELD KNIVES AT OUR STOMACH, AND THEN SAID, 'TAKE OFF YOUR WATCH.' IT'S STILL AFFECTS ME AFTER ALL THIS TIME, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO GET THROUGH THIS. WE KNEW THAT IN SUVA THEY'D PUT DUCT TAPE AROUND YOUR MOUTH TO KEEP YOU QUIET, AND IF YOU WERE TOO LIPPY, YOU COULD BE ASPHYXIATED AND IF YOU WERE TOO LIPPY, YOU COULD BE ASPHYXIATED, AND IT JUST REALLY, AS YOU CAN SEE, IT CHANGED MY ATTITUDE AS TO WHAT VICTIMS FEEL WHEN THEY'RE SUBJECT TO CRIME. SO AFTER THAT, IN COURT, WHEN A LAWYER WOULD RIGOROUSLY CROSS-EXAMINE A VICTIM ABOUT WHAT THE ASSAILANT LOOKED LIKE ` AND I'D LISTENED BEFORE THIS AND WONDERED WHY THEY COULDN'T IDENTIFY SOMEONE ` AFTERWARDS, I FOUND THAT I WAS MORE INTERESTED IN STAYING ALIVE THAN WORKING OUT WHAT COLOUR SHIRT THEY WERE WEARING. YEAH, THAT'S INTERESTING, EH, THAT YOU, DESPITE HAVING BEEN IN THAT JUDICIAL ENVIRONMENT FOR YEARS, SADLY, IT TOOK A FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE OF VICTIMHOOD TO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD STOOD BEFORE YOU HAD EXPERIENCED THEMSELVES. YES. AND LOOK, CAN I JUST SAY THAT IN RELATION TO WHAT PEOPLE EXPERIENCE, WE DECIDED AFTER CYCLONE GABRIELLE LAST YEAR THAT WE WOULD GET OUT ON THE ROAD AND TALK TO PEOPLE, AND IT MOVED US. WHEN WE SAW WHAT THEY WERE PUTTING UP WITH, I WOULD NEVER HAVE KNOWN THAT HAD I JUST STAYED IN MY OFFICE IN WELLINGTON. BUT WHEN, FOR INSTANCE, WE WENT UP THE EAST COAST AND SAW THE WAY PEOPLE HAD HAD TO MANAGE AND BEEN SUBJECTED TO, IT CHANGED MY WAY OF THINKING OF WHAT MATTERS TO NEW ZEALANDERS AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO BETTER SERVE PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN OUTLYING AREAS. YOU WERE FORCED TO RESIGN LAST YEAR BECAUSE OF A PROVISION IN THE OMBUDSMEN ACT THAT SAID YOU HAD TO RESIGN WHEN YOU REACHED HE AGE OF 72. YOU HAD TO RESIGN WHEN YOU REACHED tHE AGE OF 72. WOULD YOU HAVE RESIGNED IF THAT PROVISION DIDN'T EXIST? WELL, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE YOU A NON-ANSWER, BUT HERE IS THE POSITION ` I KNEW WHEN I WAS APPOINTED THAT I WOULD NEED TO RESIGN AT AGE 72. I KNEW THAT. DID OTHER PEOPLE, OUT OF INTEREST? OTHER OMBUDSMAN? I MEAN, PERHAPS OTHER OMBUDSMAN, BUT DID LEGISLATORS KNOW THAT THAT WAS A, YOU KNOW... I MEAN, PERHAPS OTHER OMBUDSMEN, BUT DID LEGISLATORS KNOW THAT THAT WAS A, YOU KNOW... UPON YOUR APPOINTMENT, DID LEGISLATORS REALISE THAT THAT WAS A PROVISION WITHIN THE ACT? I DOUBT THAT ANYONE WAS MUCH INTERESTED, TO BE TOTALLY HONEST WITH YOU THERE. I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING, ISN'T IT, THAT A NUMBER OF POLITICIANS ARE WELL AND TRULY OLDER THAN 72. YEAH. BUT FOR ME` PRESIDENTS, EVEN. YES. WELL, THAT'S DEAD RIGHT. BUT FOR ME, I KNEW WHAT THE RULES WERE, AND I KNEW THAT I WOULD NEED TO RESIGN ON REACHING THE AGE OF 72. I WOULD JUST SAY THIS TO YOU WITHOUT COMMENTING ON THE WISDOM OR OTHERWISE OF THAT ` I CONTINUE TO ENJOY, I'VE CONTINUED TO ENJOY THE WORK. I THINK AS YOU MATURE IN THE JOB, YOU DO BECOME MORE COMPASSIONATE. I THINK YOU DO BECOME MORE REASONABLE. YOU DO BECOME MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE, AND I DON'T THINK THAT SUDDENLY STOPS AT AGE 72. IN FACT, I'M FEELING SLIGHTLY BETTER ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS I DO NOW THAN I DID A YEAR AGO. YEAH, YEAH. DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE OTHER PUBLIC ROLES WHICH MAINTAIN SOME OF THE PROVISIONS? WELL, THIS IS INTERESTING. THE JUDGES, I THINK, HAVE A RETIREMENT AGE OF 70, BUT THEY ARE PERMITTED ON ACTING WARRANTS TO GO ON LONGER THAN THAT. IT'S INTERESTING, ISN'T IT, THE U.S. DOESN'T SEE IT THAT WAY. I THINK IN THE SUPREME COURT, YOU'RE THERE FOR LIFE. YOU ARE IN THE SUPREME COURT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER AGE-RELATED PROVISIONS, RIGHT? FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE TO BE AT CERTAIN AGE TO BECOME PRESIDENT. BUT YEAH, IT'S A CURIOUS` A CURIOUS ONE, AND ONE CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU'D NEVER BROUGHT IT UP ` IF ANYONE WOULD HAVE NOTICED. YEAH, WELL, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. LOOK, IN THE END, AT LEAST THE ISSUE'S BEING PUT OUT THERE, BUT THE THINGS THAT GET LEGISLATIVE ATTENTION FOR CHANGE. ALL DEPEND ON WHAT'S NEEDED AT THE TIME. BUT THE THINGS THAT GET LEGISLATIVE ATTENTION FOR CHANGE ALL DEPEND ON WHAT'S NEEDED AT THE TIME. YEAH. A COUPLE OF LAST QUESTIONS. PRINCIPLES OF FAIRNESS AND TRANSPARENCY HAVE DRIVEN YOU DURING YOUR TIME IN THIS ROLE. WHAT DYNAMICS IN MODERN NEW ZEALAND GIVE YOU CAUSE FOR CONCERN? WELL, WE HAVE WE'VE DROPPED IN THE TRANSPARENCY RATINGS. AND I'VE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT. JACK, WE'RE ONLY AS GOOD AS WE WERE YESTERDAY, AND I THINK WE'VE REALLY GOT TO WATCH THIS. SO CAN I JUST MENTION ONE THING THAT'S A CONCERN TO ME? RECENTLY, I'VE BEEN ASKED TO SUBMIT ON VARIOUS BILLS BEFORE PARLIAMENT, AND MINISTERS HAVE PUT INTO THEM A CARVE-OUT OF THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT DOESN'T APPLY. THAT'S A CONCERN. SOONER OR LATER, THE VERY LEGISLATORS IN ANOTHER WORLD, ANOTHER LIFE, MAY WANT TO GET INFORMATION FROM THAT VERY DEPARTMENT AND WON'T BE ABLE TO. SO I THINK A CONCERN IS CAN WE PLEASE STILL KEEP AT THE TOP THE IMPORTANCE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, THE IMPORTANCE OF PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE? AND THE FACT THAT IF NEW ZEALAND'S ALWAYS TO BE REGARDED AS A GOOD INTERNATIONAL NEIGHBOUR, WE NEED ONCE AGAIN TO GET UP IN THE TRANSPARENCY RATINGS. WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC DEPARTMENTS OR PIECES OF LEGISLATION WHERE THE CARVE-OUTS ARE BEING PROPOSED? ONE, FOR INSTANCE, WAS IN RELATION TO CHARTER SCHOOLS. YEAH, RIGHT. AND I... WHEN I SUBMITTED` I'M NOT ADVOCATING; I'M JUST SAYING. WHEN I SUBMITTED, I COULDN'T SEE WHY AN ORDINARY SCHOOL BOARD OF TRUSTEES IN RELATION TO AN ORDINARY STATE SCHOOL SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO THE OIA, BUT A CHARTER SCHOOL SHOULD NOT BE. I JUST, WITH RESPECT, COULDN'T SEE THE RATIONALE FOR THAT. FINALLY, YOU'VE SPENT THESE LAST TERMS IN A ROLE MONITORING PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS. SO TIME AND AGAIN OVER RECENT YEARS, YOU HAVE PINGED THEM FOR FAILING TO UPHOLD HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT THE UNDERLYING TREATMENT HASN'T ALWAYS CHANGED. WHEN YOU REFLECT UPON YOUR TIME IN THIS ROLE, DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE WORK HAS MATTERED? I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT THE WORK HAS MATTERED, AND THAT'S HEAVILY DRIVEN. I DO PASSIONATELY BELIEVE IN FAIRNESS, AND I GUESS THAT UNDERPINS THE JOB. I FEEL FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO A CAPRICIOUS DECISION, WHERE TIME HASN'T BEEN TAKEN, WHERE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN LISTENED TO, WHERE A DECISION IS GIVEN WITHOUT REASON. THAT REALLY GRATES WITH ME. AND WHAT'S DRIVEN ME IS FOR PEOPLE, AT LEAST IN THE END, TO UNDERSTAND WHY A DECISION'S BEEN MADE AND HOW AN AGENCY HAS GOT FROM POINT A TO POINT B. IT MATTERS TO ME THAT A PERSON'S MANA HAS BEEN ADHERED TO, PROMOTED, AND THAT THEY FEEL AT THE END OF IT, THERE'S A MEASURE OF FAIRNESS. CAN WE ASK WHAT FOR YOU NOW? IS THERE ANOTHER PUBLIC ROLE YOU MIGHT EYE UP IN THE FUTURE? WELL, I VERY MUCH WANTED TO GET THE END OF THIS ROLE. THAT HAPPENS AT THE END OF NEXT WEEK. IT'S BUSY. THERE'S A LOT TO DO. I DIDN'T WANT THE INCOMING CHIEF OMBUDSMAN TO INHERIT HALF-FINISHED WORK, SO WE'RE FLAT OUT. I THINK FOR THE FUTURE, I'LL TAKE STOCK. I WANT TO KEEP THE BRAIN GOING, JACK. THAT'S OUTGOING CHIEF OMBUDSMAN PETER BOSHIER. NOW, IN RESPONSE TO THAT INTERVIEW, WE SOUGHT COMMENT FROM BOTH HEALTH NEW ZEALAND AND CORRECTIONS. HEALTH NEW ZEALAND SAID THEY ACCEPTED THE OMBUDSMAN'S RECOMMENDATIONS AND HAVE ALREADY TAKEN SEVERAL ACTIONS IN RESPONSE. AND CORRECTIONS SAID IMMEDIATE SAFETY AND SECURITY MUST ALWAYS BE A PRIORITY, BUT THEY VALUE ROBUST, INDEPENDENT SCRUTINY, AND HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN RESPONSE TO ISSUES IDENTIFIED BY THE OMBUDSMAN. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT qanda@tvnz.co.nz. UP NEXT ON Q+A ` ALMOST A CENTURY SINCE THE CHATEAU TONGARIRO FIRST ROSE IN THE SHADOW OF RUAPEHU, WE'RE IN THE CENTRAL NORTH ISLAND TO ASK WHAT'LL IT'LL TAKE TO SAVE IT. APPLICATIONS HAVE JUST CLOSED FOR DEVELOPERS TO REGISTER INTEREST IN RESTORING THE CHATEAU TONGARIRO. CABINET WILL MAKE THE FINAL DECISION ON THE CHATEAU'S FUTURE, BUT AS WHENA OWEN REPORTS, THE HOTEL'S CLOSURE HAS HIGHLIGHTED A WIDER PROBLEM AT WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE. (DREAMY ORCHESTRAL LOUNGE MUSIC) TIMELESS ELEGANCE... BUT HAS IT HAD ITS TIME? FOR MANY NEW ZEALANDERS, THE CHATEAU TONGARIRO IS A TREASURED LANDMARK ` IT HAS DELIGHTED VISITORS FOR ALMOST A CENTURY. JUST SAID TO MY HUSBAND, 'MAYBE WE CAN HAVE DINNER` LUNCH THERE.' YEAH, YOU WON'T BE. AND YOU SAY IT'S CLOSED NOW? IT CLOSED INDEFINITELY TWO YEARS AGO ` THE FORMER LESSEE IS NOT RENEWING, AND IT REQUIRES EXTENSIVE EARTHQUAKE STRENGTHENING. THAT'S A GREAT PITY. I THINK IT IS JUST A FANTASTIC ICON FOR THIS AREA. (CARS WHOOSH PAST) BUT RIGHT NOW, THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION IS ASSESSING EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST FROM POTENTIAL OPERATORS. ANY NEW OPERATOR WILL NEED TO FRONT UP WITH AN EYE-WATERING AMOUNT OF CASH FOR ENGINEERING AND RESTORATION WORK, THOUGHT TO BE IN NINE FIGURES. I HOPE THEY KEEP THIS, KIND OF, 1940S YELLOW. YEAH. QUITE LIKE THAT. YEAH, NO, IT'S GOT SOME CHARACTER, ALL RIGHT. RUAPEHU DISTRICT MAYOR WESTON KIRTON. THERE ARE CREDIBLE PEOPLE THAT ARE CONTACTING US AND THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, SAYING THAT THEY'VE GOT THE WAY FORWARD FOR THIS BUILDING, AND WE KNOW THEIR CREDENTIALS, COS WE'VE SUSSED THEM OUT, AND WE'VE PASSED THAT ON. NEW ZEALAND INVESTORS AS WELL? YEAH, THEY'RE DEFINITELY NEW ZEALAND INVESTORS HERE, AND WE'RE CONFIDENT THAT THEY WILL BE THE ONES THAT WILL GET THE JOB AT THE END OF THE DAY. Q+A IS AWARE OF TWO POTENTIAL INVESTORS ` ONE, WHO PREFERS NOT TO TALK PUBLICLY, IS AN AUCKLAND DEVELOPER WHO HAS WORKED ON HERITAGE RESTORATIONS. (UPBEAT SYNTH MUSIC) THE OTHER IS WHAKAPAPA HOLDINGS LTD, WHO ARE NOW WAITING FOR FINAL SIGN-OFF NEXT MONTH TO RUN THE WHAKAPAPA SKI AREA. THE COMPANY IS BACKED BY CHRISTCHURCH INVESTORS WHO HAVE RESTORED MULTIPLE HISTORIC BUILDINGS DAMAGED BY THE CANTERBURY QUAKES. UP ON THE SKIFIELD, Q+A CAUGHT UP WITH WHL DIRECTOR DAVE MAZEY. HAVING THE CHATEAU TRADING ADDS VALUE TO OUR SKI AREA BUSINESS. RIGHT? SO IF WE ARE SUCCESSFUL, GREAT, WE'D LIKE THAT, BUT IF THERE'S ANOTHER DEVELOPER COMES UP THAT'S GOT A BETTER PROPOSITION THAN WHAT WHAKAPAPA HOLDINGS HAS, WE'D LOVE THAT AS WELL. DAVE MAZEY SPENT PART OF HIS CHILDHOOD AT WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE, WHEN HIS FATHER WAS RANGER HERE. HE ALSO WENT ON TO BE A TONGARIRO RANGER AND IS SADDENED BY THE CURRENT STATE OF THE WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE. THERE'S A FEELING OF... IT'S A DERELICT PLACE. YOU KNOW? AND IT'S JUST NOT AS... IT'S... THERE'S NO WELCOMING SENSE AS YOU DRIVE INTO IT OR THROUGH IT. WANT YOUR BLUEBERRY MUFFIN WARMED UP? A COFFEE CART HAS COME TO THE RESCUE, BUT AS A WELCOME RETREAT FROM THE COLD, THE CAFE AND TAVERN ARE NOW NOT OPERATING. ANJA BRAUN IS A TOUR GUIDE FOR GERMAN PARTIES, AND HAS SEEN THE DECLINE OF THE VILLAGE. THERE ARE NO OPTIONS, AND, LIKE, EVEN EVERYTHING ELSE AROUND SEEMS TO BE CLOSED BECAUSE OF THAT. CONVERSATIONS HAVE GONE AROUND US, OVER US, BEHIND US. NGATI HIKAIRO HOLD THE MANA WHENUA IN THIS AREA. THEY INSIST THE CURRENT STATE OF THE VILLAGE IS NOT BEFITTING THE MANA OF THE MOUNTAIN. TRIBAL LEADER TE NGAEHE WANIKAU: THE CHATEAU LOOKS LIKE FAWLTY TOWERS. THE SURROUNDING BUILDINGS ARE DECREPIT. THIS IS A PORTAL TO ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CULTURAL HERITAGE PLACES IN THE WORLD, SO HOW YOU PRESENT SOMETHING IS HOW YOU VALUE IT. (UPBEAT ELECTRONIC DANCE MUSIC) IT'S NOT JUST THE GRAND OLD CHATEAU THAT'S UNDER CONSIDERATION, BUT THE CHATEAU COMES WITH 12 UTILITY BUILDINGS OUT THE BACK HERE ` LOOKING A BIT TIRED NOW, BUT THEY USED TO ACCOMMODATE THE WORKERS AT THE CHATEAU. THEY COULD BE LEASED OFF IN PACKAGES. MANY IN THIS COMMUNITY ` THEY WANT TO SEE THE RESTORATION OF THE CHATEAU, BUT THEY SEE THESE SITES AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESTORE WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE. WHAKAPAPA HOLDINGS, AS AN ENTITY, WE ARE VERY KEEN TO BE ABLE TO, SAY, TAKE ALL OF THE ANCILLARY BUILDINGS THAT EXIST IN WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE AT THE MOMENT THAT ARE EMPTY OR VACANT, OR NOT BEING UTILISED AS A TAVERN OR A CAFETERIA, AND WE COULD TURN THOSE ON TOMORROW, IF AND WHEN THE CROWN WAS PREPARED TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN UNDER SOME SORT OF SHORT-TERM TENANCY OR MANAGEMENT CONTRACT. WHOEVER TAKES ON THE RESTORATION PROJECTS, NGATI HIKAIRO WANT TO BE INVOLVED. WHETHER PEOPLE CHOOSE TO ENGAGE WITH US OR NOT, WE WILL BE INVOLVED WHATEVER ` YOU KNOW, IN OUR OWN WAY. UM... YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE TWO. IT'S A RESPONSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE BEEN BORN INTO. NGATI HIKAIRO HAVE WORKED WITH DOC TO CREATE AN AWARD-WINNING CULTURAL EXPERIENCE ON THE TONGARIRO CROSSING. THEY WANT TO INFUSE CULTURAL VALUES INTO ANY DEVELOPMENT OF THE WHAKAPAPA VILLAGE. IF YOU FOLLOW TIKANGA, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A BENEFICIAL OUTCOME FOR THOSE INVOLVED, BUT DON'T JUST CHASE A COMMERCIAL OUTCOME. ALL STAKEHOLDERS WANT THE PROCESS OF SECURING THE FUTURE OF THE CHATEAU AND ADDITIONAL BUILDINGS MOVED ALONG. WHILE IT SITS EMPTY, THE CHATEAU IS COSTING TAXPAYERS $2m A YEAR TO MAINTAIN. SO, AT THE MOMENT, THIS GOVERNMENT IS WANTING TO DRIVE ALONG TOURISM AND CALLING FOR INVESTORS ` YET THIS SEEMS TO BE FAIRLY STATIC HERE, THE FUTURE OF THE CHATEAU. YES, WE'RE GETTING MIXED MESSAGES THERE FROM GOVERNMENT, SAYING THEY'RE OPEN FOR BUSINESS, THEY WANT TO SEE OVERSEAS INVESTORS COME, THEY WANT TO SEE NEW ZEALAND GROW, AND SO I THINK THIS IS THE TIME WHERE THEY'VE GOT TO STEP UP AND SHOW THE REGIONS THAT THEY CARE FOR THE REGIONS, AND THE CHATEAU WILL BE A GOOD START. (DREAMY LOUNGE MUSIC) HE'S CALLING FOR PEOPLE TO JUMP ON THE PARLIAMENTARY WEBSITE AND SIGN A PETITION TO PUT PRESSURE ON POLITICIANS TO GET THE CHATEAU RESTORED, AND HE WANTS THE CABINET MINISTERS HERE. COME AND SPEAK WITH THE LOCAL PEOPLE TO HELP THEM MAKE A DECISION ` A FINAL DECISION THAT'S IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF NOT ONLY OUR REGION, BUT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, IF NOT THE WORLD. (DREAMY STRING GLISSANDO) WHENA OWEN REPORTING. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE GET THE PITCH FROM A LABOUR MP WHO WANTS TO RESTRICT HOW OFTEN LANDLORDS CAN RAISE RENTS. HOKI MAI E TE IWI ` WELCOME BACK. UNDER THE LAW AS IT STANDS, LANDLORDS CAN ONLY RAISE RENTSALL UNDER THE LAW AS IT STANDS, LANDLORDS CAN ONLY RAISE RENTS ONCE A YEAR UNLESS THEIR TENANT LEAVES THE PROPERTY. IN THAT CASE, THEY'RE ALLOWED TO HIKE UP THE RATE FOR A NEW TENANT WITHIN THAT 12-MONTH PERIOD. FOR THIS WEEK'S MEMBER'S BILL, WE SPEAK TO LABOUR MP GLEN BENNETT, WHO SAYS CHANGES ARE NEEDED TO MAKE RENTING FAIRER. (DETERMINED ELECTRIC GUITAR MUSIC) MY NAME'S GLEN BENNETT, AND I'M A LABOUR PARTY LIST MP BASED IN TARANAKI, AND MY MEMBER'S BILL IS THE RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES UNFAIR RENT INCREASES AMENDMENT BILL. IT'S ENSURING THAT RENTAL PROPERTY THAT SOMEONE LIVES IN HAS THE SAME RENT AT THE START OF THE YEAR, OR AT THE END OF THE YEAR. SO WHAT IT DOES IS IF A TENANT MOVES OUT AND A NEW TENANT MOVES IN, THE PRICE STAYS THE SAME. (ELECTRIC GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) WHAT SPARKED INTEREST IN THIS LAW CHANGE IS THE FACT THAT I WAS A RENTER FOR SEVERAL YEARS RECENTLY, AND I SAW FIRST-HAND THE FACT THAT WHEN WE MOVED OUT OF A HOUSE, THE PRICE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY FROM WHEN WE WERE RENTING IT WHEN I SAW IT ON TRADE ME AGAIN. I ALSO LIVE IN A WORKING-CLASS PART OF NEW PLYMOUTH AND THE MAJORITY OF OUR HOMES ARE RENTAL PROPERTIES, AND I'VE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN ` WHEN ONE FAMILY MOVES OUT, THE RENT GOES UP, AND THE NEW FAMILY HAS TO PAY FAR MORE. AND THAT'S JUST NOT OK. (ELECTRIC GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) SO SUBSTANTIAL IMPROVEMENTS ARE THINGS SUCH AS PUTTING A BRAND-NEW KITCHEN IN, OR A BRAND-NEW BATHROOM IN, OR MAYBE IT'S A BRAND-NEW GARAGE ON THE BACK. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY LIFTS THE PRICE AND THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTY. SLAPPING A BIT OF PAINT IN A BEDROOM ` THAT'S NOT A SUBSTANTIAL IMPROVEMENT, BUT A BRAND-NEW KITCHEN OR A BRAND-NEW BATHROOM IS. (ELECTRIC GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) IT'S AROUND ENSURING FAIRNESS, AS I SAID EARLIER ` MOST LANDLORDS, WHEN SOMEONE MOVES OUT AND A NEW TENANT MOVES IN, THEY KEEP THE PRICE THE SAME. IN A YEAR, PRICES SHOULD NOT SPIKE FOR TENANTS. AN EXAMPLE IS THERE ARE NO-CAUSE EVICTIONS THAT HAVE COME BACK IN, WHICH MEANS THAT PEOPLE CAN MOVE ON REALLY QUICKLY, OR A LANDLORD CAN MOVE SOMEONE ON, AND THEY CAN POP THE PRICE UP AGAIN. THIS LAW MEANS THAT IF A LANDLORD CHOOSES TO EXIT A TENANT, THEY HAVE TO KEEP IT AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE PREVIOUS TENANT WITHIN THAT YEAR. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW LIVE, YOU CAN FIND US ON TVNZ+. IT'S WHERE YOU CAN FIND ALL OF Q+A'S WORK PLUS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S NEWSROOM. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING ` NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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