(INTRIGUING MUSIC) Hey, I'm Jehan Casinader, and this is The Inside Word. Imagine stepping onto a field or into an arena and having the whole country's expectations on your shoulders. The world of professional sport is one that many of us dream of, but it comes with pressure. ('THE INSIDE WORD' THEME) Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018 With me now are three people who have faced incredible challenges in the sporting arena ` Zac Guildford, Rebecca Dubber, and Zac Franich. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Zac, what is it like when you are in your teenage years and people are counting on you ` they're telling you that you've got this raw talent and that it can be turned into something? It's pretty daunting. Yeah. I remember being a 18-, 19-year-old, and I got offered a contract, so I didn't really have to think about ` well, in my mind ` much else apart from rugby, so... My first year out of school, I played for Hawke's Bay, and then I made the Hurricanes, and, you know, I just thought the world was awesome, cos it got given to me on a plate so easily. Mm. But I never had the mental tools, like, when it comes... You know, a few years down the track, and things started to get a bit sticky and a bit tough, you know, all I had was a contract and a bit of money. No other skills. So that was... that was something that I missed out on. One of the main things that happened in your life around that time was the loss of your dad. Tell me about that day. Yeah. We were playing England in the 2009 Under-20 World Cup in Japan. Um, we'd played the final, and we managed to win that quite comprehensively, and then... then I think it was about five or 10 minutes after the final hooter, I looked up into the stand. My mum was waving me up, and she was in tears. And I was, like... I just automatically felt that something had gone wrong. And I went up there and, um, they were trying to resuscitate my dad, so... Um, yeah. That was really tough. I just put myself on autopilot after that, and I went, you know, 110% at playing rugby because I wanted to make my dad proud. Ended up making the All Blacks later that year, but... Yeah, it was all, sort of, pretty fast-paced at that time. Did you ever allow yourself the time and space to grieve the loss of your dad? Nah. No way. Um, I think it was about 10 days later I was back in the gym in Hawke's Bay, and just tried to park it all and leave it there. And, um,... as things sort of unfolded over time, it wasn't the right thing to do. Even now, talking about it's hard, because I still haven't dealt with it properly. Part of that is cultural, isn't it? We don't want to tackle those really painful parts of our lives. Yeah, 100%. You know, we've got that... I think we're getting a little bit better, but back when that happened to me and my family, it was the whole 'She'll be right' attitude,... Yup. ...and there wasn't a lot done around the mental side of things. It was just, sort of, thrown into the arena and see how you can perform. And I managed to do that quite successfully for a few years, but then after that, it got on top of me a wee bit. Rebecca, a lot of athletes start really young, and teenage years, adolescence ` it's a difficult time for most people anyway. What is it like when you chuck all that expectation and those demands into the mix as well? I think it definitely makes it harder. I think I was lucky in that I felt I always had that support from my family, from my friends and from my support team ` especially my coach ` to, kind of, help balance the likes of school, university, my personal life, my family life, and also my swimming. You'd already faced a huge amount of adversity to get into professional sport in the first place. So, I was born with a condition called sacral agenesis. What that means is that my lumbar and my sacrum part of my spine didn't form properly, which led to, kind of, development issues with my legs and my lower extremities and lower abdominal organs. As I was growing up, obviously, I couldn't walk, so I had to learn to use a wheelchair. When I was in my first year in intermediate, I really wanted to fit in. Really wanted to fit in, and the only extra-curricular that they offered was netball. And I was` You know, never played netball in my life, never had any interest in netball in my life, but I was keen to give it a go, so I asked if I could try out for the team. And without even thinking, the teacher turned to me and said, 'Netball is not a sport for people in wheelchairs.' She actually said that to you,... Yes. ...as an 11- or 12-year-old? Yes. I got told that 'Netball is not a sport for people in wheelchairs,' and that I was not allowed to try out for the team, for my own safety. So did that give you fuel and motivation to prove those people wrong? Oh, it definitely did. I wasn't allowed to play netball, so I immersed myself in my swimming. Yeah. I started training properly; I started going to national championships and making small Oceania teams; I was winning medals; I almost qualified for the Beijing Paralympics at the age of 15. Wow. So, you know, all of that has its own challenges, but it was very, kind of, empowering for me, and made me realise that this was what I wanted ` 'I want to be an athlete; I want to make it to the Games ` not just to go, but to win a medal.' Zac, do you think that the public really understands the pressure that some of our athletes are under? Uh,... pro` (CHUCKLES) I'd say no. You know, it's... Being an athlete is a lifestyle. It's not a 9 to 5; it's a 5.30 in the morning till a 10.30 at night. It's the first thing you think about when you wake up and the last thing you think about before you go to bed, and it's very much all-encompassing and impacts (CHUCKLES) every facet of your being and who you are. You were a sprint kayaker. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Did you realise the pressure that you would come under as you began that career? Uh, no. I don't think... no, I don't think anyone does, you know. You just, kind of, follow your feet, and one thing leads to the next. And for me, my biggest hurdle was I had to go through quite a lengthy selection dispute, which ended up in the High Court, around my selection to a world champs. It was a three-month ordeal, but I had to bottle up all those feelings of emotion and anger and... just frustration and park it so I could, you know, achieve, or realise, a dream of mine that I'd harboured since I was a teenager. Once I'd gone to the world champs and raced, when I came home and started unpacking, or... Once I found that bottle again and opened the cap, a lot more stuff came out. And for me, that was a precursor for a steady spiral downhill into the bottom of a, yeah, pretty dark hole. It was difficult to figure out, 'OK, what do I look like now that I'm not a sportsperson? 'What do I look like now that I don't have that fire any more? Who am I?' Every little bit of you is scrutinised ` Mm. ...your weight, your appearance, how much muscle mass you have. 'The pressure to be perfect.' Really daunting, walking into the room and thinking, you know, 'What do these people actually think of me?' * (INTRIGUING MUSIC) Competition and comparison is part of sport. Comparison is the thing that differentiates athletes. What's it like being under the microscope? It's terrifying. You know, we have so many people that work behind the scenes that do all this analysing, and they give you all these numbers, and... Charts and videos and stuff. All these charts and videos to watch, and, you know, you have... I think you have to develop quite a thick skin to be a successful athlete, because every little bit of you is scrutinised ` Mm. ...your weight, your appearance, how much muscle mass you have, your technique. So I think, technically, I'm quite a good swimmer. Um,... but, you know, every time somebody films me, there is always something that they can nitpick that I could be doing better. Yeah. And then you do get compared to other people. So as a female athlete, I'm always compared to other athletes,... Yeah. ...not just based on technique or speed, but also on looks. So if there's someone from another country that, I mean, maybe fits the ideal of an athlete better than I do, then... Not outright. Nobody will ever say outright, 'You're too fat; you need to lose weight; 'you don't look a certain way; you need to change your appearance,' or whatever. Nobody tries to change you like that, but there are subtle hints, subtle,... you know, little comments here and there that, you know, do make you feel very self-conscious and very self-aware. You know, we strive for perfection. We're perfectionists at heart, and, you know, perfection is somewhere over there, and you're always a couple of steps behind it. You can try to be your best, but, you know, you've always got something to work towards. Zac, I remember the day that you were named in the All Blacks,... (CLEARS THROAT) ...and your face... photo of you and your mum was right across the front page of the newspaper. Do you remember what that day felt like? Yeah. Um... It was pretty awesome. Um,... it was a bit of a shock. I felt a lot of relief, cos I'd done it for my dad. I didn't really ever feel like I was doing it for myself. But, you know, I felt happy that I'd done it for my family and my dad, so, as I said, it was more relief than anything ` that I'd managed to get there and do it. But, you know, everything, sort of, happened so fast. I was only 20, thought I had life pretty well on lockdown, but (CHUCKLES) obviously didn't, so, um,... yeah. It was just really, really fast, and I wish I had taken time to slow down a bit. What were the first signs that things weren't going all right? Um, I guess I'm someone that does everything at 110%, if I'm gonna give it a good crack, so while I was doing that in my rugby and training, I was also burying my emotions with drinking, drugs, gambling ` all the devices that lead to a dead end, so... What did those things do for you at that time? They made me forget. Mm. They hid my emotions ` which were, obviously, a lot of sadness, but then happiness as well, for, like, when I was playing good rugby. So I was sort of... (CHUCKLES) I guess I was sort of dead in my mind, because... It was kind of numbing you. Yeah, it was numbing me. Mm. So, um,... yeah, I never really took time to reflect on the good times or the bad times. I was just... just trying to cut it all out completely. And while all this was happening, you had this intense media glare. And in 2013, I remember sitting in a press conference where it was you facing a whole bunch of cameras, and you were there to talk about your drinking. What was it like, facing that level of scrutiny? It was scary. Yeah? Uh, really daunting walking into the room and thinking, you know, 'What do these people actually think of me?' And then even now... even now, I have that feeling, like, you know, of anxiety. Walk into a mall or a supermarket or something, and you see people looking at you, and, like, 'They looking at me cos I'm a rugby player, 'or cos of the stuff I've done in the past that's not so good?' And yeah, I guess that feeling will always stick with me. Zac, did you worry about where your depression could have taken you? Yeah. I guess I worried about the kind of person that I would turn into. When you can't quite see the light at the end of the tunnel, um, it's a pretty daunting prospect. In a practical sense, what impact did your depression have on your life? For me, it was not getting out of bed until about midday. (CHUCKLES) Um, it was just feeling constantly tired, and just feeling really upset, like I was... I'm not sure. It almost felt like I was mourning something, but I didn't quite know what I was mourning. Um, in the past, whenever I felt that way, I would train in the morning, and, you know, the endorphins you get from exercising will make you feel happy and, kind of, mask over anything bad. I felt anxious to do it ` to train. I felt anxious going back to an environment surrounded by a group of people that I now kind of associated with negative feelings. So, um,... yeah, I wasn't training; I was just sleeping a lot. Yeah, probably` To be honest, (CHUCKLES) probably drank a bit too much as well, and just didn't really feel like me. Rebecca, you've faced a lot of injuries and medical issues that have taken you out of training and out of competition. What does it feel like when you're a professional athlete and you can't do the thing that you desperately want to do? Feel pretty bloody useless, to be honest. (MAN CHUCKLES) When you can't do the one thing that you feel you do the best,... Mm. ...it kind of leaves you with this, you know, empty feeling in your gut of, 'Well, what do I do now?' You know, a little bit like Zac ` not getting out of bed till midday, feeling exhausted all the time and just really frustrated with what's happening. Um, you know, it's happened so many times now that I know that once you get over the hill, it does get better. But it definitely doesn't change those moments, those weeks, those days, where you're sitting in doctors' offices being told, you know, 'This is a potential outcome; 'this is a potential risk; you might potentially not be able to do that.' Don't be afraid to lean on people. Getting the right people on your team. You've got friends and family for a reason, and they're the ones who matter. * (INTRIGUING MUSIC) Was there a particular moment for you, Zac, where you realised` And I know that there were a number of moments where you knew that you had to change, but it was still tough to swing your life around. Mm. Was there a particular moment that did it for you? Yeah. It was when I got back from the Waratahs ` living in Sydney and the high-paced lifestyle over there, which definitely (CHUCKLES) didn't suit me in the, um,... (REBECCA CHUCKLES) ...you know, where I was at at that time. So I wasn't in a good space. And took one morning to wake up pretty dusty and realise that I'd lost everything. I didn't have a contract; I didn't have much money left; I'd burnt a lot of bridges. And that's when I reflected and I thought, 'Geez, I wish I had done things better my earlier days.' And I thought, 'The only thing I can change now is my future.' So I went back to playing rugby, cos I loved it,... Mm. ...did things around the community, just trying to teach young people rugby and stuff like that, and it seemed to get me back on a good path. But, you know, knowing you could... Well, having lost it, um, yeah, it hurts, and I don't really want to do it again. So that's what's keeping me focused at the moment. People don't realise how sensitive you actually are, right? Mm. People feel that, 'You're a rugby player; you must have this tough interior 'as well as a tough exterior.' What are you really like, when all of that stuff is stripped away? I'm pretty soft, (CHUCKLES) to be honest. (REBECCA CHUCKLES) I try and put on a front like I'm pretty rock-solid and not much can break me, but, uh, behind it all, you know, I've had to go and talk to people and get help ` something I didn't do in my earlier days. And I think it's about humbling yourself ` realising that I'm not made of this magic stuff and no one can break me, but, as I said before, we are normal people who deal with normal things that every real-life person deals with, so... We just play a sport that, you know, we've worked hard at and we've managed to become ` for myself, you know ` I guess, semi-good at. Yeah. How have you learnt to be more accepting of yourself and kinder to yourself? Although I'm getting there, you know, I'm not all of the way there yet. Like, I still let my real-life problems sometimes weigh me down... Mm. ...and get on top of me. But I think part of that is owning it and realising there's no magic fix and to keep talking and to keep working at it. And, I guess, owning what you're good at and then what you're not good at as well, and... yeah. It's easier said than done, trust me. Zac, who are you now, without sport? CHUCKLES: Um,... I think I'm a pretty good sibling, I'm a good uncle, I'm a good friend, and I like to think I'm a pretty good person. Yeah. Like, I have my faults, and I have my good points, but I'm now at a point where I'm slowly distancing my performances ` or what I used to do in a sporting arena ` from who I am, and try and be a good person. Just try and be a kind person. We have to touch on The Bachelor. (LAUGHS) What was it like taking on that whole persona after your sporting life had ended,... (EXHALES) ...and trying to not let that weigh you down? It was actually very similar to... For me, it was a very similar transition from being an athlete to not an athlete any more, to... like, you have this, um, character that you're portrayed as, and... How do you think you were portrayed? LAUGHS: I actually didn't watch much of it, but from what I could gather, I, um,... I think I came across as someone who was respectful to everyone in the situation, and I just tried to act with integrity and just tried to be true to myself, which I think came across. But I also came across like a cardboard cutout, boring person that I probably wouldn't want to invite round for a drink. (LAUGHS) And that's not who I am either, you know? So it's been tough, you know ` and especially with, you know, social media. I guess there was a sense of ownership from a lot of people, whether I liked it or not. Absolutely, because people feel like they are entitled to have an opinion... Yeah, absolutely. ...on everything about your life. Yeah. But they're not only entitled to have an opinion, but they're entitled to know. And they're entitled to tell you. Tell me to cut my hair, and tell me to do all sorts of stuff. (LAUGHTER) (LAUGHS) For me, I'm really thankful for my time as an athlete and having been in a really tough environment which is filled with that adversity, which has helped me deal with, I guess, that side of things, post going on a show like that. What is your advice for people on how to be the most authentic version of themselves without taking on other people's perceptions? You've got friends and family for a reason, you know? And they see the best in you, and they're the ones who matter. You know, the people that you trust and the people you care about ` they're the most important people. Rebecca, you made it to Rio, which a lot of people thought you wouldn't, and you won medals. What is your advice to young athletes? Build a really strong support network. Build a good relationship with your coach. Keep a good relationship with your friends and your family, because you need to pull yourself away from sport every now and again to really appreciate the opportunity that you've been given ` because it's a privilege to be an athlete. We get offered so much to help us achieve our dreams, to achieve our goals, to represent our nation ` and you just can't take it for granted. Just find the right people and lean on them. Don't bottle it up inside. Mm. CHUCKLES: I am notorious for trying to do everything, first, myself, and I think it relates back to just who I am as somebody who's grown up with a disability and who's always had people trying to do things for me. And I'm fiercely independent, (CHUCKLES) so I always try to do it, first, myself before I then, kind of, go, 'Wait, uh, can you help me with this?' Mm. But don't be afraid to lean on people. And if you're feeling down, or you're not feeling sure of what's happening, or you're getting frustrated, the best thing you can do is talk. You're not gonna be silly, you're not gonna sound stupid, and, if anything, the people around you will be willing to help. Awesome. And if you'd like to talk to someone about the pressures in your life, you can free call or text 1737 any time, and that number will get you through to a trained counsellor. That's us for tonight. Thanks to these guys for sharing their stories, and thank you for watching. Goodnight. Captions by Maeve Kelly. Edited by Tracey Dawson. www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018