- Fuck, it's so nice. Like I have had sex in like much worse locations. (both laugh) Oh my God, like I already feel like I've been romanced! (laughs) - That's $150. - No! - Ten minutes. - Not on this show's budget. In an example of gas lighting at its finest, the human race has kept the sex industry thriving for centuries, while for the most part, denying its existence. That was until 2003, when New Zealand got hungry for another world first, and made sex work in New Zealand legal, destroying the very fabric of our society. Unfortunately, we were so busy giving ourselves a huge pat on the back that we forgot to extend those fundamental human rights to migrants, making sex work still a dangerous activity for some. So what gives? Why the caveat? And can't we all just have sex in peace and for money, if we want? - Do you want to experience something that a client might experience, without having to take your clothes off? - I think so. I don't know. You're not gonna electrocute me, are you? - Nope. - Oh no, is this gonna fucking hurt? 'Cause I actually... I- I'm a little, little, little... - Pussy? - Yeah, I'm a little pussy. (laughs) - The good thing is, if it hurts you, it'll hurt me. - Okay. - Oh, fuck. Ow! Fuck! (laughs) I don't want that. I just wanna come when I have sex. (laughs) ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ahh ♪ ♪ She's got bad news ♪ How did you first get into sex work? - I started working because I basically needed money to come to New Zealand. - And then you came to New Zealand to study, is that right? - Yeah. - And when you're in New Zealand, can you do sex work here? - No, unfortunately. Like I did have a work permit, but people still can't work in the sex industry if they are not citizen of New Zealand. - And in your opinion, is that kind of like a fair restriction on this? - Absolutely not. (both laugh) - You can't come to New Zealand with the intention of being a sex worker. - But also, once you're here, you can't then become a sex worker, can you? - You have to be a permanent resident. - Got it. - I think it's unfair, based on like probably two main point. If someone have a work permit to work in any other industry, but not in a sex industry, I think that is like discriminatory toward the industry itself. - Yeah. - And also, if you say sex work is decriminalised here but just not for migrants, that is discriminatory to migrants. - Yeah. Why then do you think we still have this kind of caveat in the law? - The history of that, we were really upset at the time when that was introduced in the eleventh hour in 2003. You know, there was a perception that people would be trafficked from Southeast Asian countries in particular, and somebody, in their wisdom, thought it would be sensible to say, "Well, no person can come to this country with the intention of being a sex worker, and nobody can operate a brothel." - At the time when the legislation was passed, which was a long time before I became an MP- - All right, don't shift the blame so early. - The view was... No, the view was, and I think the view remains, that actually if you say that sex work is open to migrant workers, that actually creates an incentive to traffic people to New Zealand. - So if- - And, and, and- And I can say that, from our point of view, it is working well to achieve the outcomes that were intended with that legislation. It is focused on harm reduction, and we have next to no evidence of trafficking of people to New Zealand to work in the sex industry. - We have women who squirt. - Is squirting really a real thing? - It is. - I've heard it's basically just urine. - Yeah, there is, you know, two schools of thought on it. But I have seen squirters, and I have helped squirters clean up after a squirting booking, and it's clear. It's a clear fluid. They do have to hydrate if they're going to... If it's what I call a "Tsunami Squirter", which is an enormous amount of liquid. But also, a woman- - God, I'm sorry! I feel like I'm so chill and not giggly about sex, but "Tsunami Squirter"! (laughs) - We're challenging you. - "Tsunami Squirter" is not something I've ever heard. - Oh well, yep, I mean I kind of... I think I coined the phrase years ago. (Alice laughs) I call it a "Warm Puddle Squirter", which is women who just, a little bit. - Okay. - And then the Tsunami, there's literally a tsunami. And I've seen - Like a (whooshing) - like a literal tsunami of someone sitting on someone, having sex, and then going, "Now you've done it. Now you've done it!" And pushing herself up like this, and this flow of liquid went (whooshing) up on this guy's face, and he was not expecting it. Yeah. He got it in his mouth, in his eyes. (Alice laughs) - Do we have an issue with people being trafficked in New Zealand, then? - Into sex work, we haven't- - All right. ...got an issue there. And other, you know, sex worker organisations around the world say that the biggest issue is the misperception around trafficking. You know, people say, "Oh my gosh, if you liberalise, if you decriminalise, you're going to facilitate conditions where people are more easily trafficked." It doesn't make any logical sense. And sex workers, particularly in countries like South Africa, you know, there were big stories about I think it was the Rugby World Cup and there were going to be thousands of sex workers who'd be trafficked to it, and they didn't find situations like that at all. And same if you talk to sex workers in Southeast Asian countries. They get really peeved with this whole trafficking discourse 'cause they say it undermines their- - Autonomy? - Autonomy and, you know, they've been victims of raids. - I guess people might say that the reason we don't have an issue, they could be like, well cause of that bloody good legislation we put in action. What would you say to that? - I'd say, "Well, why is a sex worker in a motel travelling through this country, who's put up with a robbery and an assault, afraid to come forward?" - So it is something you're seeing, like it's genuinely affecting people, isn't it? - Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, we've had women who have been assaulted, have been targeted because it's known that they're migrants and they know that they're unlikely to report. - I was fortunate enough not need to work illegally in New Zealand, but some people do. And it just puts people in vulnerable places if you need to work underground. If I get in trouble with clients, brothel, I probably can't go to police. 'Cause if I need help... But then if I'm working illegally, I could get charged. So a lot of people tend to not to speak about what they go through if they need help. - Yeah. - And also, if your clients know that you're working illegally, they will try take advantage of it. - We're very big on trying to fight to make it legal for migrant sex workers to work in the sex industry- - [Alice] Yeah. - ...in New Zealand. The reality is, it's unfair. But also, it gives people who are not as nice as myself the ability to be able to coerce them into doing things. Like clients who might say, "I know you're illegal, if you make me use a condom, I'll dob you into immigration. (Alice sighs) Or I'm going to pay you for half an hour, and you're going to give me three hours." - Oh, God. - Or an operator who is a little bit unscrupulous might say the same sort of thing. Like, "I'm short-staffed and I don't care if your vagina's sore, you have to keep having sex for money because (Alice sighs) you're illegal and what are you gonna do about it?" - I will be frank. Migrant exploitation is a problem in New Zealand. - Yes. - And we do need to tackle it across the board. But there's lots of work out there for people, they don't have to work in the sex industry. - It strikes me perhaps as like a little patronising though, to say to somebody who has a proclivity for this work, "Well, I'm sorry it's just not available to you. Not based on a wants or needs thing, but because we don't want you to do that." - Well, everybody who comes here on a temporary work visa is very tightly dictated to what kind of work they can do. - What about if there became a booming market for sex work? (Lee laughs) - Again, there is an approach taken through that legislation which is focused primarily on harm reduction. - I mean, I hate to... But I also love to keep pushing you on this, when we say that the focus is harm reduction, the Prostitutes' Collective would say, "Well, we're working with migrant sex workers who are facing problems because of this legislation." - And I appreciate their point of view. (Alice laughs) But as I say- But as I say- No, no, but as I say if people are in New Zealand on a visa, then they've got lots of other options. - I feel like it's ignoring the reality of people's lives, and that that was like an argument that was used against the decriminalisation of sex work back in 2003 where we passed this law. So I guess when I hear that rationale, I go, "Didn't we deal with this 15 years ago?" - I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed at this stage. - [Madam Mary] So you've been a very, very bad young woman, haven't you? (both laugh) And it's nothing (tapping) to laugh about. (Alice laughs) - I can't take it. I actually can't take it. It's too much for me. - I'm going to have a look and see what's in your desk? - No! Crayons? - That's what I was looking for. (Alice laughs) What's that for? Stand up, bend over. - Oh my God! (sighing) (cane tapping on desk) Put your hands on the desk. - Fuckin' hell, I can't- - Bend over. (hands slam on desk) Are you sorry for what you've done? - No- Yes. (Alice laughs) - Did you use condoms or did you leave them in the desk? - I left them in the- - When you were having sex with that young man? (cane tapping on desk) - I left them in the desk. - So you had sex without a condom? - Yes. Fine. Don't fucking hurt me. I'm not- (laughs) (cane taps quietly) Uh, ow! Nah, that was actually fine. (cane taps loudly) - Ow, fuck me! (ruler slaps table) Ow! Shit! (Alice laughs) - That's what you get for being a filthy, dirty young woman who doesn't use condoms. - What is it about sex work that we don't really still conceptualise of it as work? - It's really interesting. I think it's that hangup on monogamy. - Right. - Isn't it? You know, cheating. (Alice laughs) - It's like with the shift in law in 2003, sex work is recognised - it's not morally endorsed. - Okay. Is that a legislative distinction? - Absolutely. - Holy shit, I did not know that. - It's funny, isn't it? And I guess it was a phrase that brokered some of the wavering politicians at the time. So while- - That's in the legislation? That's fascinating. - And why that is interesting, for example, Work and Income New Zealand can't advertise, so there's- - Sex work? Yeah, they can't advertise sex work. - Because they would be- - [Both] Morally endorsing. - Are there any other professions that have these sorts of caveats, I guess? - Not to my knowledge. Sex work stands alone. - That, to me, is just... - It's amazing, isn't it? - It's astounding. - Yeah. - Do you have a thought about the idea that the discussion around the morality of sex work may have impacted this law that we currently have in place? - Morality finds its way into politics all the time. - Are you at all concerned that maybe the stigma around sex work has perhaps blinded us to a better way of managing these situations? - I think we can tackle some of the issues that we're seeing through other means that probably present less risk than changing the legislation might. - What is the risk? - The risk is that we might open up trafficking, and encourage trafficking of people to work in the sex industry. It's hard to point- - Have you seen- - It's hard to point to the- - Have you seen that, though? - We have very little evidence of trafficking of people to New Zealand for work in the sex industry. - And less than before when the bill was put in place? - Uh, I think no more or less than before. - Right. You'd think that would be the biggest indicator, though, that if it had effect, that that would be one of the things that changed. - Well- - Like, if I was a lawyer, and I was once but I don't want to get into that. But if I was arguing this in court, right, you would have to prove causation. - If you were arguing- - Can you show me the causation? Can you show me the direct line from this to the result of no trafficking? Because if I were a person making decisions and here were people who worked directly with the industry telling me this isn't working, there was no necessary hard evidence that could point toward direct connection, a causative connection, between the legislation and the result, I would go, "Well, fuck. You know better than I do." - Well, so you've got one opinion from the Prostitutes' Collective, you've got a different opinion from the immigration officers and I think that... that overall, the law is working well. (Alice sighs) ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ahh ♪ ♪ She's got bad news ♪ - What would you say to somebody who said, "Well, just get another job,"? - Um. I don't know, like "That's probably not your business." - Yeah. (both laugh)